he is a professor at the university of southeastern norway as well as the author of the book. russo phobia propaganda in international politics. originally crossed across the fact that means you can jump anytime you want, and i would appreciate it. i would start out with glen here in our slow, you know, one of the things i'm looking at media coverage. and that's what i do for a living, lie cover among western media primarily. and you know, when it comes to the conflict in ukraine going on 5 months, you really don't really learn much about the conflict. instead they to, when they're trying to convince you how to feel about the conflict, there is a lacking that the context is lacking. i'm even geographical knowledge is for the scant and, and there's reliance upon both magazine. i'm a photo shops of the ukranian president and his wife. i mean, in that seat of my stressing how to feel, it is easier to get away without const contextualizing in an n. as a way to try to will lay all the suffering that western publics are feeling,

glen. well, what you're describing is a good description of propaganda because at least have defined a just propaganda to large extent. losing an audience by not relying on rational arguments. so instead you play on stereotypes and ceilings, and obviously there's this build up to the war we're currently just follow russia games, which obviously was a great example of how feelings blurred out all of the fact of the matter. now obviously, countries, news propaganda to some extent during war, especially that this is around this is because it's necessary to mobilize public consent for a conflict. so this is why we say this during this time. but this is what the names to do is build up their stereotypes. of course, what goes wrong, good versus evil. and if you accept this stereotype and all information comes

through this through the fact that you said that it doesn't really matter anymore. because if you're guiding something even well, it was necessary and, and this is how you see it. again, it's a long history of there's a rush, it's always been seen as if you will, the other and, you know, they've been burying store civilization. they've been the asians, europe, no authority and sort of liberal democracy. so this is how all information has to be filtered to making a big harry potter has story out of the news send. this is problematic. most people can accept those stereotypes and get stuck with those emotions. don't look at the facts anymore. and then in my argument, then one loses let me, which was interesting. here i'm calling this program the phony war. and of course, this is a reference to the time when it's the, during the 2nd world war, after the war started in when nazi germany invaded poland. and before the

invasion of france was called the phony war. because there wasn't much going on, particularly on the french front, but this, there is a real war going on. but the, the propaganda that glen was referencing, and it's getting a bit sin because if the russian saw their bad guys, why are we in the west suffering? they're not making a very compelling argument louder here. well, i would say we have to look at who is the object of propaganda, and it's clear that all general propaganda is much less ukrainians. well, actually bear the bronsels of war and are being killed and suffering. so if they hear some reports from the ceo, if they look at the pictures or there's an ascii in that the effected by that they know that they're brothers or sisters. i mean, you know, hundreds, a wounded or killed a wound and so on. but though, of just as

a gullible western public research to support this, a fraud that everything is united, everything's for the school and be, is this kind of the, i desire to send money to give some kind of extra walk with me to the industrial company. it's clear that sooner or later these narrative will keep their here very hard to reality on the ground. because you know, every time they tell the west all levels help, the brain isn't going to smash russia. you're great. i'm going to conquer this. and i says, i run it out of their last m all you know, and it sooner late than even less than public, not just a few green on the western public will say, well, you tell us this. and now we hear that it ends out of the root is trying to get 70 old people in the army. now he says, everyone from done by city just have to move away. something doesn't clique. and then, you know, a western propaganda and propaganda will end up with

a big on their face. and they, i think they trying to push on it as long as they can. but in general, reality, you know, a glenn in it, that we were kind of nerdy all 3 of us on this program because we appreciate the history and geo politics. and we're from 3 different different different countries . but, you know, as an american, you know, the post mortem of the ending of the war in southeast asia. my goodness at south vietnam government was really, really corrupt then a year ago with the exit of afghanistan. my goodness, that was a really corrupt to come from. and now before the conflict started of every 24th this year, ukraine was one of the most consider one of the most corrupt countries in the world . so, i mean, this is going to kind of come full circle as billions and billions of dollars are being forwarding to the country. money, military equipment, ammo. the whole works here. but just talk about corruption is,

like i said in my introduction, almost treasonous. go ahead. ahead on this, before this war you had the, you know, a western you down the ceiling making documentary, some in documentary about the horrible corruption in your credit. your documentary, some also what they refer to us, not see battalions, but now after the war began. and we now see that this all became suddenly russian propaganda and to say it in the more also calling a proxy war was also enough to get your council. then of course, the old american political issue began to refer to as a proxy or in the media somehow it's, it's ok, so it's difficult to follow. but again, this is this huge conformity. i mean, you have to choose between 2 positions, and this is often very artificial because of course, you can say you're opposed to the russian attack on ukraine because they're, you know, supported by. if you do,

it doesn't decision also have to conform to the whole narrative and big rivalry between democracy versus tyranny's. and then that also makes china complexity well . and then, but of course the facts in this market, it's kind of disappears because, you know, government is supposed to be this near inspirational. beacon of democracy, you know, sometimes gets the new winston churchill. and of course, it becomes non official because you can, when, if you want to talk about ca, polk, colfax, for example, the more strict corner laws against russia, speakers on ethnic russians, binding the opposition party about the resting adventure, the main opposition later or placing all neither control under the state, you know, these are objectively undemocratic and actions above. if you mention this fact if it comes called russia propaganda, why she's not true or no,

because now you're creating doubt about the korean government. so showing support is necessary and that's why it's very dangerous. this began because it makes all our journalists in the west into soldiers in this information or destroying our own trust me that we're trying to destroy our own institutions. and it's one of enter this conflict. we should be able to say on the things such as, you know, if you want to convert ukraine into frontline against russia, this is not compatible with democracy. and this is why we see that you created marks. it's a large extent was snapped out after 2014 when you moved to made into this new sometime. but again, we don't talk about the facts and then we have this book articles, you know, you have this. yeah. yeah, always this emotional appeal would have been landscape versus put in which has become the embodiment of evil. and then we don't have to discuss security interest

. we don't have to discuss that because there's a good versus evil now. and if your silence, i'm glad of it. when it is, when the glen was describing how the goal post as it were, is changing. this is, there's a guy, amazing similarity to cove it only when you can say something when you can say something. but you can say something at one point. you can cancel the months later . it's common parlance. i mean, it's a, it's very interesting the kind of a trajectory both covered and that way we were allowed to talk about ukraine. i think, you know, what americans are good. it is a, each of the masses are manipulating masses and maybe learn from this experience. what i, he and all this is like a mock use them all over again. and i was using work for quite some time on until sound very. she is honest, voices in the space arose and say, this is lot of, you know, exchange you describe in york,

you're raising the rec less dangerous situation, which destroys our democracy, destroys our country. the same thing is happening here. i don't think if americans want to help ukraine, this is not the way to help grain by allowing one person band all the parties that have been all employees. and this is that the help a great this is doesn't help anyone, any contact you through, you know, a directive through kind of challenges, throat. so trying to improve and just haron. this might cause mccarthy methods. it works for a while and americans know it and they use it and they use it on germany. they use it on to london, sweden as a manipulated, but it's people, common sensical, people should sooner live their lives. and this is not a fair description of the story and the, because it's false, he does help. well, in vladimir, on top of them with something called for an investigation of ukrainian oligarchy.

which is very interesting because that would encompass the narrative before february 24th. there's corruption in ukraine and a lot of money in western money in goodwill. i think that, you know, you can say that for at least in the part of some people, but that, you know, that is the day again, that kind of creeping narrative. yeah. it is, yeah, i remember the corruption maybe because of so much money. we should have some oversight here around paul and he was he was attacked mercilessly. it's like, well vote for the money, but can we find out where it's going and where would it? and i mean, he was just absolutely destroyed in the media, but now there's more and more talk. yeah. maybe we should have some kind of oversight here. you just have to know how to play the cues. i suppose glenn, real quick before we go to the break here, would be there's going to be a major offensive most likely in ukraine, but it's going to be a russian one, not a ukrainian one. i don't know if western media is prepared to deal with that. i don't know i, i don't because well let me go to point that out correctly before the main people

were trying to convince is the western audience assist classifying of money and the weapons? i think about, for this reason, do you need to keep the momentum going here to keep the support going out? or the core of this is to say, you know, your cleanings are winning brushes, are losing those who i'm kind of seeing over the 5 months this perpetual claim a year ago. and we have to go to a hard break. and after that hard break, we'll continue our discussion, some real estate with archie. ah ah, willing a cranium t doin here soon enough idea she ship, dr. lien that she put a control in put you on board. so she'll be at the mobile door by like you system really be me of them did not sing the anthem,

missy leah with jones. actually jim's out of the room dish. but i live alone. ok. excuse not to lose to lot of the my subway, but just to reach you on a solid ship elise get us, but we ship it with them. so just take a look. you know, what do i need a, are you paying schools for that? for a one they each number or where are you familiar with . busy to take a picture, go double play. you have to go so good on. ah

welcome back across town where all things are considered. i get a little this is the home addition to remind you, we're discussing some real news, the. the minutes go back to glen glen before we had to go to the break, you were trying to make a point. please finish up. you know, sort of thing that the continued support by the western public requires this promise victories, especially with this kind of self sacrifice. so every week, you know, we have this new story about ukraine, launching a spectacular context and you know, some kind of go over the reports that nothing comes out of this huge losses. and also say that process losing their much weekend rush us

losing in a, running out every week. soldiers in russia lost their morales and putting it sit here putting it's almost about to be toppled. the russian economy floating. i mean it's, it plays out all over again. and again, the member, anything comes out of it. so what are you going to with the story that you're under? no destroying the russian military process, simply only targeting civilians of course. so, and this is where the emotional aspect comes in as well. because me only focus on civilian that's on one side, but on the other side it can be mentioned and it goes back to the idea that if you, if you have some sympathy for an opposing side, then like around paul, you might be a traitor because now you're spreading propaganda veto. you saw the fact of the matter is whether or not you can draw up enough sympathy for the right side. the real tragedy is that there isn't been call or to go. she,

agents in peace. instead of taking a side note, people will empower so that we have that discount, but you're not getting that. but why would you interest all of the things that we're told to believe the russian economy is failing. ms. sick, a low morale in the military. when things are going to last, the governments are balling in the west, the inflation is ripping energy crisis food banks and the u. k. all the things they're projecting on what's happening in russia is actually happening in real time in the west. and you can cover that because that is the lived experience of people . when you got to get bill up, you're not taking your cards, no profit is going to be one way or another. it's just expensive. go ahead. yeah, the same thing applies to the price of gasoline, driving the cars and you know,

heating and cooling. so i think it is, you know, i think the rest and propaganda, they can lie about decent places like, you know, ukraine 90 percent of the people, jennifer burns, a blue child or so it sounds all kind of music all strange by the lesson. but if you go to your own store and see the prices it is, it's collapsing and i think it's, it's an actually, it's a, it's a mistake of a, with an estimation or what there was a weakness in saying, in russia because they know i see it will be she said, well we will kind of wrong about the strength over us and the guy, you know what made it. just think about it. you are brought american gun hor. you want your 160 to succeed. you have to know your enemy. if you don't know your enemy, how can you do anything if you're just life is don't tell lies that chinese a giant on legs of clay in the rushes or the gl absent today,

then what will happen when you know a, hitler was a lie and his own people will match the russian in today's and then what, you know, they just throw the you, they just throw themselves. so i think it will keep on seeing as a result of this lies and in our life to themselves. that's a bit dangerous thing. you know, glen and not only lies, but i think it is a great deal of arrogance in play as well because i'm there with the russians for pushback, from care. that's the story here. well i, i don't know what the military planning was. i don't know what that was all about, but there is this impression that these armchair generals that were into generals in wars that were lost by the way, by the west in the middle east, primarily. but they're, they're um, trying to convince maybe themselves in the audience that the russians fight the same way as we do destroy all the infrastructure, lose something about the iraqi and destroy the water and destroying the electric,

to destroy everything. and then you go in, that's not the case of the, again, this kind of arrogant projection of how they fight a war. everybody else does, which is not the case. if you are familiar with the facts on the ground, glen. yeah, well, what you mentioned curious, important because that's what you're kind of stuck on stuck kept for so long because the beginning of the or, and of course russia were still is the troops outskirts. i'm hoping to get the concessions they wanted. and again, this was done by the weekend, however, dismissed in the work, but of course the problem for the russians where they had this long, unprotected supply lines, which made them very wonderful. so this position and this was at the starting point . everything. i see there a different strategy, but again, the narrative snail reflects kimura, which she, you know, ukrainian talks are starting to see things. there are some time. and you know,

so you know, the mighty russian military machine has been destroyed by the cranium. also have this story amongst mattress, you know, there goes the key will remember the airplane or just shut down all the russians. guy. yeah. make island, you know, there's no rush and you know, for the rest and always worship also to be it doesn't matter because the narrative still still stays there. still having the science show to the western, you know it awesome. say so, is this need to hold onto the narrative and this is also very problematic. i pointed out it's got forced to take this, this position was and so for example, i'm personally horrified by what's happening and ukraine is devastating, but you're saying listen, we should push towards political settlement, talk to the russians, at least, even if it doesn't start to dialogue, now to see where the possibility is for making peace, well,

that would be anti ukrainian. now i'm curious the pro ration because now i'm saying, well, if i wanted to make peace now with your credit, if that means well, have to make some confession. and that man asking for an ukraine is to surrender. so you're not allowed to call for peace that history in this role. so and, and so you have, you have to take one of the fish, which is the pro esther on and with all the strange and efficient switch that doesn't necessarily make sense. so it's, it's very confusing and just one final notice it goes beyond the narrative. it's george, all pointed out that also implies manipulating the language. so what, what makes met before is not even more so what's happening with the sanctions. what are the economic recession now hitting across the west? well, us, so with the, by the administration is simply changed the meaning of recession. there were nothing recession. this is what we saw, a mother was wrong,

and the oldest soldier surrender, who also surrendered. it was an evacuation, as it turned out when they put down their weapons and surrendered, and then the russian captivity. this was an evacuation that was repeated across the western media. so we just changed the language in spend a 5th with american. it's is quite extraordinary. and it is not good for us either . is pro russian on thought western are you this is bad for us in the west as well . you know, vitamin with one of the things i find very interesting is that because there is no dialogue, ok, lincoln in lab ross did speak, but of the readouts is talking about this prisoner exchange, which i'm for the interested parties. i'm sure it's very, very important. but in the, in the, in the scheme of things, you know, it is, it doesn't bode well for any time soon. the conflict, the in ukraine to come to an end. and i would, i would pause it because, you know, zalinski is not interested in the, the europeans have been cowed into silence from the,

the russians will then they would, they'll say we don't have a partner. there's nobody competent to talk to in washington. they're all the phones, they don't really understand what they're doing. i'm the secretary of defense as we want. our plan is to leak and russia, i guess that's sending the signal to the kremlin. what do you know? what kind of been a locker they have? and i would, i would, closet, then this conflict will come to an end. we'll come to an end when russians are ready for it to end. and i'd like to point out to everyone. this conflict will come to an end under russia's terms in time table. when russia is come to the conclusion, i'm thinking about the 2 letters that were sent in december on december 17th, when the nato went to the united states about russia, security guarantees ritual determinant unilaterally. and they'll say they're done thoughts. yeah, i agree with you and i think that's, that's the damage on the ground. and there weston denied by in our separation. i was ordered to a speech by, you know, or use in or all those things,

but the sooner or later that's how it will and what is said about that to, to, to get there. a lot of people will be killed in an tremendous damage to the most basic democratic principles will be done. because basically, the behavior all blink blink. shannon bided. this is childish behavior. united states, nate, are they were talking to sonya to russia. they were talking to, sorry, the lesser and invaded project. i guess they were talking to some of us are they, when you were she, they were concerned with these they were concerned with the freedom of speech. they were going to now all of a sudden, you know, over this conflict they just suppressed the basic principles of yes. and if you try to write something on facebook, which goes against the narrative, bam, dot com, type of counseling, one of the most popular a to me for some of his 70000000 people, listen to him or know he's a declared russian is this child is behavior which is it, in other words, u. s. trojan themselves, not only just, you know, fortune, you know,

make millions of people in the slavic lands, but, you know, they, they go to themselves. but that's what disturbing, you know, glenna and on i, in mentioned in my introduction about with a, the risk of cancellation. in this there has been an asserted attempt to count all of russia. russians, russian culture, russian history, the works ok. but i would posit the west is self cancelling itself in many ways because the, the global south in china, they just, they, they're not on board, they will not get on board at the west finds itself isolated. something that we're talking about language rush is isolated at the same time. putting in lab robert, traveling a busy schedule. there's no global consensus against russia miss. and i would posit the west is isolating. and so they go sell no longer fears the west and doesn't respect the west anymore. luck last word goes to you. but i agree. and i

think that this has been one of the major shock. so here in the west is, you know, again, this is a narrative, not the whole world is united behind you in behind the west a, it's not that many in the countries and all that. so according to the west, instead, it doesn't mean that they're supporting russia, just mean stuff. this is a proxy war between nato and russia, a cost, the cost of ukrainian sunday. they didn't want to pick aside in this. i mean, everyone's a russian probably on this will stephen argument of the po for that obviously news from workers. but again, he was a hole in the category of russia. so it is a shame because this has been the strength of the west, is being able to have this group and this course and challenge established ideas and a thing like, it's no way someone watching us here. are you see you next time remember? ah,

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