[000:00:00;00] ah, ah, ah hello and welcome to cross stock where all things are considered. i'm peter labelle. the one aspect about the ongoing conflict and ukraine that stands out most is media coverage. never in the history of corporate media has coverage been so biased in one sided. it does not stop, they are questioning the standard narrative is akin to treason and subject to censorship and cancellation. ah, to discuss these issues and more, i'm joined by my guess, vladimir goldstein in capital. he is the chair of the department of slavic studies

at brown university. and in arsole we have glenn neeson. he is a professor at the university of southeastern norway as well as author of the book, bruce, a phobia propaganda in international politics. originally crossed across that effect . i mean, you can jump anytime you want and i would appreciate it. i had started out with land here in our slow, you know, one of the things in looking at media coverage. and that's what i do for a living, lie cover among western media primarily. and you know, when it comes to the conflict in ukraine going on 5 months, you really don't really learn much about the conflict. instead they to, when they're trying to convince you how to feel about the conflict, there's a lacking that the context is lacking. i'm even geographical knowledge is pretty scant. and, and there's reliance upon vogue magazine, a photo shots of the ukranian president and his wife. i mean, in that state of my stressing how to feel,

it is easier to get away without const contextualizing in an n, as a way to try to allay all the suffering that western publics are feeling. glen. well, what you're describing is a good description of propaganda because a list have defined a propaganda to large extent away. i'm losing an audience by not relying on rational arguments. so if you play on stereotypes and feelings, and obviously there's this build up to the support began the war, we're currently just russia games, which obviously was a great example of how feelings kind of blurred out all of the facts of the matter . now obviously, countries, news propaganda to some extent during war, especially that this is around this is because it's necessary to mobilize public consent for a conflict. so this is why we say this during this time. but this is

what we got to do is build up their stereotypes. of course, what goes wrong, good versus evil. and if you accept this stereotype and all information comes through this through the fact that you said that it doesn't really matter anymore. because if you're guiding something even well, it was necessary and, and this is how you see it. again, it's a long history of there's a rush, it's always been seen as if you will, the other, you know, they've been burying store civilization. they've, in the ations european court here in our liberal democracy. so this is how all information has to be filtered to making a big harry potter has story out of the news send. this is problematic. most people can accept those stereotypes and get stuck with those emotions. don't look at the facts anymore and then in my argument, then one loses let me, which, what's interesting here, i'm calling this program the phony war. and of course,

this is a reference to the time when it's the, during the 2nd world war, after the war started in when nazi germany invaded poland. and before the invasion of france, it was called the phony war because there wasn't much going on particularly on the french front. but this, there is a real war going on. but the, the propaganda that glen was referencing it's getting a bit sin. because if the russian saw their bad guys, why are we in the west suffering? they're not making a very compelling argument louder here. well, i would say we have to look at who is the object of propaganda, and it's clear that old propaganda is much less ukrainians were actually and bear the bronsels of war and are being killed and suffering. so if they hear some reports from the see or if they look at the pictures and ski in that effected by that they know that them brothers or sisters. i mean, you know, cause

a wounded or killed a wound and so on. but though, of just as a gullible western public, there's a test to support this, a fraud that everything is united, everything's for the school and be, is this kind of the, i desire to send money to give some kind of extra walk to me to the industrial company, it's clear that sooner or later these narrative will keep their here very hard to reality on the ground. because you know, every time they tell the west all levels help, the brain isn't going to smash russia. you're great, i'm going to conquer this. and i says, i running out of their last m all you know, and it sooner late or even less than public, not just a few green and the public will say, well, you tell us this, and now we hear that it ends out of the root is trying to get 70 old people in the army. now he says everyone from done by city just have to move away. something

doesn't clique. and then, you know, a western propaganda and propaganda will end up with a big on their face. and they, i think they trying to push on it as long as they can. but you know, you kenneth reality, you know, glen in it, that we were kind of nerdy all 3 of us on this program because we appreciate the history and geo politics. and we're from 3 different different different countries . but, you know, as an american, you know, the post mortem of the ending of the war in southeast asia. my goodness that south vietnam government was really, really corrupt men a year ago with the exit of afghanistan. my goodness, that was a really corrupt to come from. and now before the conflict started of every 24th this year, ukraine was one of the most considered one of the most corrupt countries in the world. so, i mean, this is going to kind of come full circle as billions and billions of dollars are being forwarding to the country. money, military equipment,

ammo. the whole works here. but just talk about corruption is, like i said in my introduction, almost treasonous. go ahead. ahead on this before this war and you had the, you know, a western you down the ceiling making documentary, some in documentary about, you know, the horrible corruption in your credit, your documentary, some also what they refer to as nazi battalions. but now after the war began, and it's, we now see that this all became suddenly russian propaganda and hello to say it in the more also calling a proxy war was also enough to get your council. then of course, the old american political issue began to refer to as a proxy or in the media. somehow it's, it's ok, so it's difficult to follow. but again, this is the huge conformity. i mean, you have to choose between 2 positions, and this is often very artificial because of course,

you can say you're opposed to the russian attack on the crane because they're, you know, supported by. if you do it, does your position also have to conform to the whole narrative and big rivalry between democracy versus a tyrann is? and then that also makes china completed if you will. and then, but of course the facts in this market, it's kind of disappears because, you know, government is supposed to be this near inspirational beacon of democracy, you know, sometimes gets the new winston sure, sure. and of course, it becomes non official because what if you want to talk about comp hawk colfax, for example, the district court laws against russia, speakers on ethnic russians, binding the opposition party, about the resting. that's the main opposition, later or placing all neither control under the state. you know, these are objectively undemocratic and actions above if you mention this

fact, it becomes called russia propaganda to not true or no. because now you're creating doubt about the korean government. so showing support is necessary and that's why it's very dangerous. this began because it makes all our journalists in the west into soldiers in this information or destroying our own trust. and i mean, we're trying to destroying our own institutions and it's one of enter this conflict, we should be able to say on the things such as. and you know, if you want to convert ukraine into frontline against russia, this is not compatible with democracy. and this is why we see that you created the marks, it's a large extent, was snapped out after 2014 when you made demand into this new line. but again, we don't talk about the facts and then we have this book articles, you know, you have this. yeah, yeah,

always this emotional appeal would have been landscape versus put in which has become the embodiment of evil. and then we don't have to discuss security interest . we don't have to discuss because there's a good versus evil now and your future sign it. and i'm glad of it when it is when glen was describing how the goal post as it were with this change in this is there's some guy, amazing similarity to cove it leave when you can say something when you can't say something. but you can say something at one point you get cancelled the months later, it's common parlance. i mean, it's a, it's very interesting the kind of a, a trajectory both covered. and that way we were allowed to talk about ukraine. i think, you know, what americans are good, it is a, each of the masses are manipulation masses and maybe learn from this experience. what i, he and all this is like a mock use them all over again. and my guys used to work for quite some time on until sound very. she is honest voices in united states arose and say,

this is lot of you know, exchange you described and you are, you're creating a reckless, dangerous situation, which destroys our democracy, destroys our country. the same thing is happening here. i don't think if americans want to help ukraine. this is not the way to help ukraine by allowing one person band all the parties that have been all employees and it just doesn't help a great. this is doesn't help anyone. any contact you through, you know, dialectics through kind of challenges, throat. so trying to improve and just here in this market, mccarthy, methods, it works for a while and americans know it and they use it and they use it on germany. they use it on to london. sweden as a manipulated but it's people are commonsensical, people should generally the realize that this is not a fair description of the story. and because it's false, it does help. well,

in planning here on top of them with something called for an investigation of ukrainian oligarchy, which is very interesting because that would encompass the narrative before february 24th. there's corruption in ukraine and a lot of money in western money in goodwill. i think that, you know, you can say that for at least the part of some people, but that, you know, that is the day again, that kind of creeping narrative. yeah. it is. yeah. i remember the corruption maybe because of so much money. we should have some oversight here around paul and he was, he was attacked mercilessly say, well vote for the money, but can we find out where it's going and where would it? and i mean, he was just absolutely destroyed in the media. but now there's more and more talk. yeah, maybe we should have some kind of oversight here. you just have to know how to play the cues. i suppose, glenn, real quick before we go to the break here. would be there's going to be a major offensive most likely in ukraine, but it's going to be a russian one, not

a ukrainian one. i don't know if western media is prepared to deal with that. i know i, i don't because i well, let me go said, pointed out correctly before the main people were trying to convince the western audience, pacifying of money and the weapons. i think that for this reason, you need to keep the momentum going to keep the support going out. there are the core of this is to say, you know, the ukrainians are winning. thrushes are losing those who i'm kind of seeing over the 5 months this perpetual claim. after a year blind, we have to go to a hard break. and after that hard break, we'll continue more discussion. some real new, stay with our g. ah ah ah ah

no, she completely new military. i was talking just look up from when literally a muscle is around noon. she kitty doesn't being an exemption on a nurse to me as possible. mama cascoo said it suddenly tim got that. i put his ashley of adhesive wanted. what's a good bit of pieces goes down to come. you want a new faith, but of course zation did. did you bring out? not but the key chain of crimes. can that work for phones, right. some cynthia leacock, one week i at that point, did that with no grain meet that have that ah needs to come to the russian state. little narrative. i've stayed as i'm phoning most 19

with in the city battle beetle kissel alleys to fargo speaking. when else calls quasi about lizzy with, we will van in the european union, the kremlin. yup. machines. the state on russia to day and spook our t sputnik given our video agency, roughly all band on youtube with pollution. did you think even crystal channels with me? a welcome back. across the top where all things are considered, i get a little this is the home addition to remind you, we're discussing some real news,

the the minutes, go back to glen glen. you thought we had to go to the break. you were trying to make a point, please finish up. you know, sort of thing. continued support by the western public requires this promise victories, especially with this kind of cell sacrifice. so every week, you know, we have this new story about ukraine, launching a spectacular context and you know, some kind of going to over meet the reports that nothing comes out of this except for huge losses. and also we have to say that process losing much weekend, russia, losing in running out every week, soldiers in russia and lost their morales and put in put in almost about to be toppled the russian economy. clothing. i mean, it's place out all over again. and again, that number, anything comes out of it. so, but again it's, it's with the story that your grand st under dog,

destroying the russian military brushes simply only targeting civilians of course. so, and this is where the emotional aspect comes in as well because me only focus on civilian that's on one side. but on the other side it can't be mentioned and it goes back to the idea. but if you, if you have some sympathy for an opposing side, then like around paul, you might be enough traitor because now you're spreading propaganda. veto is not the fact that the matter is whether or not you can draw up enough sympathy for the right side. the real tragedy is that there isn't been a call or negotiations in peace instead of taking a side people but will empower so that we have that discount, but you're not getting that. but what we're doing, you know, all of the things that we're told to believe the russian economy is failing. ms. sick,

a low morale in the military. when things are going to last, the governments are balling in the west. the inflation is ripping energy crisis food banks and the u. k. all the things they're projecting on what's happening in russia is actually happening in real time in the west. and you can't cover that because that is the lived experience of people. when you got a bill up, you're not taking your cards, no profit is going to be one way or another. it's just expensive. go ahead. yeah, the same thing applies to the price of gasoline, driving the cars and you know, heating and cooling. so i think it is, you know, i think the rest and propaganda, they can lie about decent places like, you know, ukraine, 90 percent of the people jennifer around a little that so it sounds all kind of music. all strange bad lesson. but if you go to your own store and see the prices it is,

it's collapsing and i think it's, it's an actually, it's a, it's a mistake of a, with an estimation or was there was a weakness in saying, in russia because they know i see it in the she says, well, we will kind of wrong about the strength over us and the guy, you know, but they just think about it. you are wrong, american gun horn. you want your 160 to succeed. you have to know your enemy. if you don't know your enemy, how can you do anything if you're just life is don't tell lies that chinese a giant on legs of clay in the rush is or the collapse and then what will happen a, hitler was a lie and his own people will match the russian in today's and then what, you know, they destroy the you, they just throw themselves. so i think it really people and she, and as a result of this lies and in her life to themselves as a dangerous thing. you know, plan and not only lines that i think become

a great deal of arrogance in play as well because i'm there with the russians for pushback, from care. that's the story here. well i, i don't know what the military planning ones. i don't know what that was all about, but there is this impression that these armchair generals that were into the generals in wars that were lost by the way, by the west in the middle east, primarily. but they're, they're um, trying to convince maybe themselves and the audience that the russians fight the same way as we do destroy all the infrastructure, live something about iraq and destroy the water and destroying the electric, to destroy everything. and then you go in, that's not the case. so the, again, this kind of arrogant projection of how they fight a war. everybody else does, which is not the case. if you are familiar with the facts on the ground, glen, i want to mention the key important because that's what you're kind of stuck on stuck kept for so long because in the beginning of the or, and of course,

russia who stole is the troops outskirts and hoping to get the concessions they wanted. and again, this was done by the weekend however, dismissed in the work. but of course the problem for the russians where they have this long, unprotected supply lines, which made them very wonderful. so, yep, and, and disposition. and this was at the starting point to everything that are in different strategy. but again, the narrative snail reflects kiera which say, you know, ukrainian talks are starting to see things. there are some time. and you know, so, you know, the mighty russian military machine has been destroyed by the cranium, mostly have the stores a mattress. you know, there goes the key will remember this airplane or just shut down all the russians. guy lin. yeah. make island. you know this, though, you know, russians, you know, for the russian or worship, but there's also to be,

it doesn't matter because the narrative still still space to still have the science show. and so the western, you know, it also say so is this need to hold onto the narrative and this is also what's problematic. i pointed out it's got forced to take this position was and you know, so for example, i'm personally horrified by what's happening in your credit is devastating, but you're saying listen, we should push towards political settlement, talk to the russians, at least, even if it doesn't start to dialogue now to see where the possibility is for making these well, that would be anti ukraine. and now i'm curious the pro ration because now i'm saying, well, if i wanted to make peace now with the credit, that means, well, i have to make some confessions and asking for an ukraine is to surrender. so you're not allowed to call for peace. that is treating this as well. so, and, and so you have, you have to take one of the fish,

which is the pro esther on and with all the strange and efficient switch that doesn't necessarily make sense. so it's on, it's very confusing and just one final notice it goes beyond the narrative. it's us, your general point that out and also implies manipulating the language. so what, what thinks meant before it's not even more so what's happening with the sanctions . what are the economic recession now hitting across the rest? well, so, so with the, by the administration is simply change the meaning of recession. there's nothing recession. this is what we saw. a mother was wrong, and the oldest soldier surrender, who also surrendered. it wasn't evacuation as it turned out when they put down their weapons and surrendered and ended up in russian captivity. this was an evacuation. it was repeated across the western media. so we just changed the language in spin, you know, to fit with american. it's is quite extraordinary. it's not good for us either is not pro russian on far west. and are you bad for us in the west as well? you know,

vladimir with one of the things i find very interesting is that because there is no dialogue a blanket in love, roth did speak but a verb and that the read outs is talking about this prisoner exchange, which i'm for the interested parties. i'm sure it's very, very important, but in the, in the, in the scheme of things you know, it is, it doesn't bode well for any time soon. the conflict in ukraine to come to an end, and i would, i would pause it because you had zalinski is not interested in the, the europeans have been cowed into silence. um, the russians will then, then they'll say, we don't have a partner. there's nobody competent to talk to in washington. they're all the phones, they don't really understand what they're doing. the secretary of defense is we want, our plan is to leak and russia. i guess that's sending a signal to the kremlin of what the, you know, what kind of been a locker to they have. and i would, i would posit in this conflict will come to an end. we'll come to an end when

russians are ready for it to end, and i'd like to point out to everyone. this conflict will come to an end under russia's terms and time table when russia is come to the conclusion. i'm thinking about the 2 letters that were sent in december on december 17th, when the nato wanted the united states about russia security guarantees, russia will determinant unilaterally, and they'll say they're done thoughts. yeah, i agree with you and i think that's, that's the damage on the ground. and the weston denied by in our separation. i was order just speech by, you know or use in or all this thing, but no sooner or later. that's how it will end. what is said about that to, to, to get there. a lot of people will be killed in an tremendous damage to the most basic democratic principles will be done. because basically, the behavior all blink blink, gen and bided. this is childish behavior. united states, nate are they were talking to sonya to russia. they were talking to,

sorry that i so, and isn't weighted project. so i guess they would go into sort of, as i said, they would negotiate and they were concerned with the piece they were concerned with the freedom of speech. they were going to now all of a sudden, you know, over the conflict they just suppressed the basic principles of yes. and if you try to write something on facebook, which goes against the narrative, bam, dot, you know, type of council, one of the most popular a percentage is 70000000 people listen to him or know he's declared russian is this child is behavior, which is another u s, georgia themselves, not only just, you know, fortune, you know, make millions of people in the slavic lands, but, you know, they go to themselves, but that's what disturbing, you know, going on and on. i mentioned in my introduction about with a the risk of cancellation. in this there has been an asserted attempt to can, so all of russia russians, russian culture, russian history, the works ok. but i would pause in the west is self cancelling itself in many ways

because the, the global south in china, they just, they, they're not on board, they will not get on board. and the, the west finds itself isolated, something that we're talking about language rush is isolated at the same time. and in law proper travelling, a busy schedule. there's no global consensus against russia. and i would posit the west as isolating himself. the global cell no longer fears the west in doesn't respect the west getting more luck. last word goes to you. but i agree. and i think that this has been one of the major shocks here in the west this, you know, again, this is a narrative that the whole world is united behind you in the west to iceland, a nato. it's not that many a countries and all that. so according to the west, instead, it doesn't mean that they're supporting russia, just mean stuff. this is a proxy war between nato and the russia, the cost,

the cost of ukrainian sunday. they didn't want to pick a sign in this. i mean, everyone's around probably going to say this will stephen argument of the po for that, obviously a hole in the category of this. so it is a shame because this has been the strength of the wes, this being able to have this open discourse and challenge, established ideas and a good friend, someone watching us here already. see you next time. remember? oh, for willing it over to the toil. no cranium to the door here. soon enough idea. she ship, doctor lean,

report to control. you put you on board so we should. she'll did etivia. i'm awarded by latest. i will only be near them if not, sing the vice president of lucy. leave here with jim jeff, dr. room, there's a crazy use that to where you store lot of the my subway. but just dory. yes or no. i live here the least get us but we ship them. so yes, a daughter to look like you more what of them? i need a, are you playing school? was with that for a one. they reached over the course and you can actually be due to not to go to work. it doesn't feel good global. i'm sure yours about how she took on the job is to promote the enough room for a few quick to take

a picture. well go double play. you have to go so good. i'm up with a with no issues with health because the thing tie one which he's having to say to do on tuesday, despite china's thing to move as a breach of its sovereignty with china will certainly take a resolute response and effective counter measures to safeguard its sovereignty and territorial integrity. we need breaks the algerian presidents as the countries waiting to join the alternative rapidly growing economic lock. that's in contrast to your plate alliances which appear to be losing global influence. opec