liable historical lesson to be applied against another international, colonial thinking. well, to discuss that i'm now joined by talk hills while a permanent south african politician and businessman and an ally of nelson mandela . this is a while, it's great to talk to you. thank you very much for your time. there's 2 summers. let's see. now you're literally a world apart from a russian, your crane in johannesburg, some 15000 kilometers away from where we are. how much attention is given to this conflict in your part of the world, and how is that covered the world's global? really, you know, there's nothing in the, in the way whether it is in the oscar to home, to where they say thank you model for right now. whether it is body music is there with them, or you're going over the discussion by love wrong with or that

we did these things on time on this one. and i must say, lou from the stops we have it. but it's our disappointments am by the fact that there's been attempts to send some news. we come from the lens of nelson mandela. we come from the background and the history of class. he's a party, it was a home or 1st room, your u. s. and s, when the listeners must understand that there's either go on to a lot of them sitting in nazi germany. and after $945.00, they came here to start their own home off. now this in or fresh has been with the policy so, so from the length of next monday, we know what since i see, we know what the war he's, we'd know what aggression use and therefore the news is we wanted to with see everything they're supposed to do with modern technology media,

you know that from the very beginning there has been a disagreement. oh, who are the main protagonist? whether it is neighborly, tries between a russian ukraine for the independence of your cream or whether it involves some other actors as well. how do you see it when i started by expressing from my client, you know, our sense of those, those very human beats, in our sense of the progress. to see what i can see, the brothers and sisters at war ross on this problem, africa who have been my ukrainians and by us it was biggest science mcdaniels do so. i mean it's all goes to form. this is the hot break, the seed grub. i insist i gave of a sister. that's the 1st thing i want to say. we also b,

because remember we did not have a concert. but mom did i didn't belong to us. the most of it washes them than not just waiting to hear the last night. and many, many puzzles. well, give us the home my. shes dogma, our whole, my home is a part of the time it was the this go. so who's of the soviet, do my own? was most school, and i said this in my whole wasn't little room is also different. it was what we can find out for our audience. because in your younger years, you trained as a military engineer in this offer to lots of places around the soviet union. can i ask you this opportunity and ask you whether you saw any difference between the russians and the ukrainians at that time, political, ethnic culture? and do you think this war, this current conflict could have been avoided with the soviet union was not whatever difference is the b 5 among the people in your thought of info on what i

was received by one group of people we never had to finance. i lived in central for lima. desa is of us, the point i live in, in living do i do the time for the recorder simply. but most of the time when you do multiple, what are the differences? maybe, but the way that is about be aware of these things, but when you buy one people, nothing for it thus lights a day when the country is broken off in 1990 when there's nothing we can do. but when this terrible constant is taking place, it affects us as well. and we'll hope and we have what suggestions about how this thing must come to an end. because all was at the end of the mouse come to an end. when, before we talk about how it may and do you think it could have been to that of sort of and i will say what are stated in public? i'll state what is the said over even by me. the other end of 1945

did not change the story is to r t we we had to organizations when the cold war we got we had not prompted to juggle greece and that also does the standards from impala. these limited, sadly, organization is there not stages of bob regal guns? no guns. they pushed us for less than $45.00 until 1989. i'm with where did the cold war and so when that was all forwarded over mid to was kept the life mental is a war or gun is the issue. so the big so the progress of mental health care for life at no body can destroy and were fired for the point where the people know if i'm seeing that nobody can see that. but yet we hear over and over again from western politicians,

from nato officials that need harbors no malicious intent v. russia. i did what i see is the flu. find somebody who wants the strike use a party when legal, kansas were helping. what does natal doing now think about what the government given them weapons has been the even the with that web once. yeah. because would not try to change. use the, i know today's point, you know, who garage to drop the you go fight like it is under who's risky. but if i go to fight against the attack was, it does become questionable. but the truth, we may need to start that will be what russia when you do this? no, i think you'd be that when i said that was set up this one to step with about one off of route. but he's landed terrorists will come from iraq. celia

and other have now come into after got exhibit come to so mildly of the of come to laws. i'm be next to us and they started the war here. this current last year, me our so just because the data is now next door, there's times off of that that is fully at rule go 5, like using those. so not just thought are great and number of countries do what we call the software development for, which we went there because the data is everything that's the because the so affected local, you must lead to the words above what was done is to we can see therefore, 2 things will have their reaction that reaction or, or was go to some people who was your issue now, or some people in most what was the national security interests of russia didn't come. nobody must come with the story, but there's no with,

with an oil a day, but if it's not, this is a 10. and now the 15 groove, we'll start with your list of your 2 of them and it comes with it. so you don't need to persuade me that you know, the russian security interest and both. i will i agree with you totally here, but still this is, i think this is going to be one of the most painful conflicts for russian recent history. precisely because of what you said, we have most of us have family members in ukraine. they have childhood memories in your brain. so even in the, you know, national security interest were involved, it was an extremely difficult decision. i will have to leave with the consequences of it for years and perhaps take it to come. now i want to turn to your own story because you have a very interesting story of fighting for what you believe to be your country's

destiny, being an anti apartheid student. later joining the aren't organization of the african national congress. them being in south being in prison on the robin island, but nelson mandela, et cetera. in those times, did you ever doubt what was right and what was wrong? how did you arrive at your own conscience and your own piece of, you know, making those decisions because, you know, fighting against what you see as injustice. you can do that. you know, in white glove. sometimes you take measures that you hate and still you have to take them. the 1st of the few people struggle off. what is the struggle for liberation like yourself, a form of mother? and 1st of them was underpinned by chris for justice,

brief quantities, i danced the laces them, and we planned with the whole lot of both of us. american people supported us. mr. biden was one of the best of point us off associate is not posted. we were supported from it who again, bridget, so on. so, so we're given by the chris weighed quality on non gratian allison, and for justice was the policeman of our own country. all these go through that route. we're now faced with the problem with we wait, we approach the currency issue with that kind of an i p live become that what they come in, people always, you know what? yeah. and stuff and see what god, you gone? yes, and one friend of mine is them is often what we can never accept as people we did for social justice or human rights is that hate flips. not he's been split in the world to be and will not be part of the he does not say it's

a sport man. you must be announced to come to play tennis. no person would expect it, but you could get an answer. for the sake of playing tennis or football, it will never happen. so they have to use that much. so in any case, in all parts of the, of when i'm buying, it would have big russian people as well. you're kind of people, we try both with the security. so prison put team will also try with the national so that any c or president for you or you can, yes, we probably will see. you think sofi does all sorts of things. these are big to believe this country. but one thing we must also be trying to use your crate and those i present their lives. you must be aware of that we are leaving for a voice on the u. s. one,

and that is the day when i was going to go to point to be the president that respect what must come and then realize that these people want to fight until the last do go on. you know, they want to put the weight weak is the last, when they used to play as 10 am for the buck must come to an end. who was a brand new light by model is a disaster. therefore this they must come to an end to say the 3 b discussion dialog and debates for now mrs. wiley, we have to put an end to both discussion dialogue and debate because we have to take a very short break, but we will be back in just a few moments. stay tuned. ah ah

ah ah so what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have. it's crazy confrontation, let it be an arms race is often very dramatic, development only personally and getting to resist. i don't see how that strategy will be successful, very difficult time time to sit down and talk ah

ah, welcome back to wells by joker sick while we employment in south african leticia and businessman and an ally of nelson mandela. mr. sick while before the break, you mentioned that in your anti apartheid struggle, you were supported by people from around the world in america. but i know for a fact that nelson mandela are white some time. i mean, this person who is now considered to be one of the carriers greatest carriers of human conscience. he was considered a terrorist and he couldn't receive an american visa for quite some time. when in your own perception, when did that sweet occur? when he start was some being seen as a, as a, as a terrorist. and suddenly it became

a one of the scenes. i go news for you until this dam classified as a terrorist. i'm. it was to go this phase with nelson mandela went to the white house and met president george bush and other people. consider the license for one of the things i was lazy. and like i said, this question was, this thing of being continued to be classified. this tell this, you know, that is possible, but it's in my passport. i'm still restricted. i want our medical a switch. because we, we were having the cottage and the owner, austin the for the freedom of our people. now, in america now the puzzle delivered to us, oh, well, the park like we'll see where some of the people are supporting us. and some of the people who i guessed us, but, you know, gave linda becoming president chase. i became a prim yet no, so modality seems residence and during that time up with level 3 in america. but

when i went and talked to one of the business, you start to stream up with again, this was so i kept on being stop at the airport. if i give them because of the current administration, the time that best to change a lot, it was not worth us to buy them. but because we had one, you know, because we had prevails. it was no good music america to punch in recording us. there was, but i'm saying that i'm good people in the united states than anywhere else in the world are good people with what we have to do through and bates who dilute through to promote discussions. we have to make sure that this war comes to an end of some is, i think the ascii is affecting the world economy yesterday. only the international monetary fund, whether it is worth as downgrade the growth of the world. you know, because of what is everything, not voicemail but the sanctions because the both ways love the lesson but because

of it and it's wrong for any group of countries to dig it up, one of them sells to put a gun on right. it's if you played because your grandfather is do the simplest point in the rush, wind problem. so everybody is good bye. so when you talk about russian un publish a is also posted to certain people. and i said, because they're also free people in this world. but we believe that it would like the week there is a need for people to sit down and dissolve. unfortunately, the talk to, to have any bells have not, let's see. they're putting said the did and, but i want to you as somebody i know very well present with tie again. i know you said the didn't give me this meant the lose. you almost ready to see him but and then we've got the discussion inside. listen to the logo,

personal questions them up. i think it is the easy thing to take the 1st step, but somehow people have got to find it. and mr. second a little bit because i have been calling for for quite some time. and i know you've been following these calls like from it's very beginning, and i think it was in 2015 when you published an open letter to present to 10. and a president obama was overcome the hubris and come to the negotiating table. and to some extent, this call was heated because president put in and present, right in math in geneva last year. and they talked about the origins of their disagreements, but the united states continued militarize in ukraine and continued using its land to present the military, french to russia. isn't there a certain point when the dial needs to stop so that the other side, you know, understands that then you know, so using that dialogue to, to deliver harm,

to its adversary, not my own own. our said that i know was going to be the soldier, goodbye. i'm our come to us. all right. well more than 300 years. so i understand this thing and well do another thing i feel we can even play a role and plug it with us. you know, the about 2 months and the business of on both sides. we have been in prison for more than 15 years. so i wanted to say that the time of value is always an opportunity to be seized. those who have not know what is that open him of life. i'll leave with all the leaders that i'm not talking for in your organization. i don't a lot of organizations business and so, but as an international citizen, and as somebody will do this, that we might not be that clever. ok, but we'll, why we've domains that we've seen this thing before because it will end up in dire . let's keep the door open and i'll leave with brother in law school

and open not don police did and yourself. i understand what you said, but it's time for it to just sit down when to wait even, you know, just to meet face to face. i know it's not easy to take the 1st step lead us about hope for me. i live in that hope the knows whether we, we negotiate. we started talking with the enemy of the wish. it was, we were still inside it and this is a file i, if the russian, any ukrainian people and they, russian and ukrainian leaders indeed decide to me. the thing is within the capacity of the ukrainian government, of the ukrainian leadership, to put not only to sit and enter that war, but to implement the commencement that they may take upon themselves. i am on which is, for example, making ukraine neutral. i from what i hear of the russian official saying they don't want the ukrainian sovereignty, they don't want to decide anything from the ukrainians. what they want is new

credit. you're going to try and stop presenting a strategic threat to russian militarily. as long as that is taken care of ukrainians are free to receive whatever they see for themselves. but do you think these decision rest within key capacity or that it perhaps needs to be taken taken elsewhere. and how would you persuade those powers elsewhere to commit to that? i know you're busy with poverty, but that's the essence of negotiation and deliberations and dialogue and to promote discussion. those points are easy. are the points not to be handled as the discussions? because the 1st thing is to say of all these, all since they can no longer go for the movement of those. and then we'll talk about the details of all these guarantees was all class. once those are questions for the debate, you can say do this before we go, then it's something that was negative that wouldn't meet about uses. of course,

those things look good, but the subject of the discussion. so the only thing i'm saying led the brother all the time to them. so discuss people come from outside and call more fuel into the situation, present their lives. look, that was supposed to go to spend as a president with a spread of your own people. and that's what you questions about, but be careful about you playing would not be controlled by others on those of you on with sophie you have to do by doing, you know it and he's, he's really good very well. and it's going to take a little bit of it, but let me give him a lot of people behind this. i'll think this is the problem. this, but tell us, and of course we broke all the weapons from outside, not be in the situation. we need more as to see more jaw,

not wall. so the people who are bringing weapons, you know, maybe time for the warehouse all the way jofunia was to be empty. that is what we're seeing. but this must not, but definitely in this part of the world, we are not with the best things for that to come to us to the end of the day. because questions and comments as the end of the day, you are left on your own rico who when people are, what is better? can i ask him very quickly about something that you mentioned before? the fact that this conflict is having the rest of the world, and there are many express how warning about the growing danger of not hunger in developing countries because of the rising fuel. and food prices prompted by the, by the sections western sanctions against russia. isn't that also to some extent, a sign of supremacy when a 2nd part of the world can decide that everybody else can suffer because of his decision to penalize that's a rush or somebody else?

isn't that the very essence, if you will, of apartheid or fashion? and how as the international community, we can deal with that so that you in south africa don't have to pay, let's say, for our russian mistake. because at this point of time, the most vulnerable countries are not even forced to carry the burden of the of the western sanctions. because the west doesn't like something about russia. the group is a good is a limited works. remember in the, in the solar system, where does the book take note of communication from a police report is never such a high state. that's what happens on the 3rd part of the world. so this photo is emitted in black with the point of a form of war. when you impose sanctions, let it clearly wolfy, i guess other people is affecting us. now, what is the bed of beats?

we feed into the pencil bombs, which we did with ministers, with almost every way. we're not part of this that that's why we have good the rights that we can say. why does this black men talking? who has a right to the end of the web and sub i will the right to the 2nd of the world to point the finger at the wrong thing. that is deputy, we can kill the bidding of the sanctions because they go the sanctions, the unilateral, they're not united nation functions. we insult a libertarian. for 30 years, we asked from 1960 to 9090. we had asked for qantas to impose sanctions on south africa. they play jokes with us. did these dogs with us? the sanctions don't last have i had mouth where they was in one day. we understand the games are going to be all real things that we're asking for people to recognize the for week. and i'm going to say this for the last time. the danger of what is happening in that part of the world. you can have this wall

breaking out into something else because of mistakes. in concrete tense, like less ness or a miscalculation you see, right? not the leaders of the world in this part, one of the world nation, everybody, including prison per diem. i in danger because other people may take advantage of the situation and throw em you back on top of the assembly, lead us the white house, lead us the claim, lean, lead us prison, zelinski people have got to sit down and by the way, the decimal if you don't, there was, she was friends of the checks, nipple sheet with you and then you see that in with, you see done, it may well get how the world war one more to ended. you know, what did it. but today we can talk with jamie people, but when you get on, you know, you, you think you something, but he's been gone for a buy a car for the children on both sides of the fence. these are all the children of

the don does the book called and quite close the door by shallow, the dawn with shades, if ever, by both washing any painting people, you all belong. well mister separately, i called dad, so not only our past, but also our future, but we have to live in there. thank you very much for your wisdom. i hope i've answered your question. does the love to stamp on the subject, but for the children live to school? there just conflicts. countenance pinkish. i'm thank here. it's our viewers for watching hope to see her again next week. well, the part, ah ah

ah, ah, a talking with you, do you a get with a ford edge that also choice issue somebody over there also with

a lot of video will lock you up voyles up with it is you know, that way. i don't mind i look forward to talking to you all that technology should work for people. a robot must obey the orders given by human beings except where such order that conflict with the 1st law show your identification. we should be very careful about our personal intelligence. the point obviously is to race trust rather than fear a job with artificial intelligence. real summoning

with a robot most protective phone existence with for the latest wave of israeli does a violence at 324. as an exchange of rockets strike between television and the islamic dea continues for the 2nd day in a row and to the stories that shape the weak pensions remain high with large scale chinese military girls in the taiwan strait after nancy pelosi is controversial visit to the island that push beijing and i pay for the break of military confrontation and on yes, for public courses claim they've taken control over most of the key pow and used by ukrainian through as a foreign position to target the don. yes.