ah, obama protective own existence with too. oh mm hm. mm ah, welcome to all the parties that efforts to isolate los solander west comparing it partly to dial south after claiming that depression were to have its own nelson mandela government, which to be ostracized. and the country's economy, boy,

what it is that a viable historical lesson to be applied again, or perhaps another international colonial thinking. want to discuss that i'm now joined by and talk, kill us at wiley, prominent south african politician. and this is an ally of nelson mandela. this is a while. it's great to talk to you. thank you very much for your time as well. let's see. now you're literally your worlds apart from a russian ukraine in johannesburg, some 15000 kilometers away from where we are. how much attention is given to this conflict in your part of the world. and how is that covered the world? is that really, you know, from there is nothing separately any way whether it is in the whole, do with a tank in model for right now where those bodies music is there with that you're going over the discussion by law with or that

we did these things on time on this one and i must say you from the stops, we have it on our disappointment am by the fact that there's been attempts to send some news. we come from the length of nelson mandela. we come from the background and the history of a party, a party, it was a form or 1st room, your us and as well as a listeners must understand that these are all on the a lot of them say in nazi germany. and after 945, they came here to study their own home or not as them or fresh has been with the party. so, so from the length of next monday, we know one since i see we know what the war he's, we know what aggression he's. and therefore when the news is we on the web,

you see everything is supposed to do with modern technology. media. you know that from the very beginning there has been a disagreement. oh, who are the main protagonist? whether it is neighborly, tries between a russian ukraine for the independence of your cream or whether it involves some other actors as well. how do you see when i started by expressing from my slides yellow, our sense of those, those rare human beats in our sense of the progress to see what i can see, the brothers and sisters at war ross. oh, this travel ostrich us. who have been to my ukrainians and by us it was regular science mcdaniels do so i me of all those who formed is the high brake seat grub. i insist i gave brother, sister,

that's the 1st thing i want to say. we also believe, because remember, we do not have a kind of didn't belong to us. the most of it washes them the not just waiting to hear the last night. and many, many puzzles won't give up the whole machine dogma. our whole my home, as a participant, i was to discuss the use of the soviet union. my all was most school and i said this is my whole watsonville group. it was like this one. it was what we say in find that for our audience, because in your younger years, you trained as a military engineer in that, in to lots of places around the soviet union. can i ask you this opportunity and ask you whether you saw any difference in the russians and the ukrainians at that time, political, ethnic culture? and do you think this war, this current conflict could have been avoided as by the soviet union was not

whatever differences the b, 5 among the people in your thought of info on what i was with or seen by one group of people we never had to connie and i lived in central pauline. odessa is the last of what i lived in in linen. do i have to the time for the record there with me? but most of the time we lived in moscow, what are going on? maybe better the way. now there's live up, be a will of these things. but when you buy one people, nothing for that. thus light, when the country is broken off in 1991, there's nothing we can do. when this devil comes to this taking place, it affects us as well. and we'll hope, and we have what suggestions about how this thing must come to an end, because all was at the end of the last come to an end. well, before we talk about how it may and do you think it could have been to that, i've sort of and i will say, what are stated in public?

i'll state what is the said over even by mean other end of 1945 would not change this thought is to all k. we had 2 organizations when the cold war we got we had not planned to teach august. and that also does the standards from impala these limited, sadly organization. is there not a big organization or the programs it they push us from 1945 until 1989. i'm with where did the cold war and so when that was all forwarded over mid to last kept a life mental is a war or gun nation. so the big so the frog mental health care the life at no body can distill. and we're fired for this point where the people see if we're going to see that nobody can dispute that. but let me hear over and over again of pro

western politicians from nato officials that need harbors no malicious intent. these ivy, russia i'm a k c as a flu, find the somebody who for the strike use a party with nato kansas were helping him. what does natal doing now? think about what the government given them. weapons has been that given the book that went on yet because would not try to change used to, i know today's point, you know, who garage to drop the go 5, i guess that is under whiskey. but if i go to fight against the attack, was it does become questionable by the full release made to start that will be, was russia when you do this? no, i think you'd be the one i said that was still a little understood. well, someone didn't want that one off of route,

but he's landed terrorists will come from iraq. celia and other have now come a doctor got it does come to so mildly of them come to laws. i'm b, that's to us. and they started the war here. this current last year need our so just because the data is now next door, this time off of that is fully at will go fight like using those. so not just our great number of countries you want to call the south african development for which we went there because the data is a bit because the thought affected, nobody must lead to ask the words about what was done is to we can see therefore 2 things will have their reaction that reaction or more school to some people. what's your issue now? or to some people in most, what was the national security interests of russia didn't come.

nobody must come with the story that there's no with, with an oil a day, but it's not cool. this is the most organization doesn't allow the shifting growth . we'll start with your good list of your 2 of them and it comes with it's all you don't need to persuade me that you know the russian security interest. i am bold. i will. i agree with you totally here, but still this is i think this is going to be one of the most painful conflicts for russian recent history. precisely because of what you said we have most of us have family members in ukraine. they have childhood memories in your brain. so even if the, you know, national security interest were involved, it was a, an extremely difficult decision. i will have to leave with the consequences of it for years and perhaps take it to come. now i want to turn to your own story because

you have a very interesting story of fighting for what you believe to be your country's destiny, being an anti apartheid student leader joining the aren't organization of the african national congress. them being in south being in prison on the robin islands, but nelson mandela, et cetera. in those times, did you ever doubt what was right and what was wrong? how did you arrive at your own conscience and your own piece of, you know, making those decisions because, you know, fighting against what you see as injustice. you can do that. you know, in white glove. sometimes you take measures that you have and still you have to take them to the 1st of the philosophy of political struggle for liberation. like yourself are people. so the form of mother and freshman was underpinned by chris for justice. wait 20 i days the

races. them and we've planned with a whole lot of us american people supported us. mr. i didn't was one of the best of point us off associate is off of the we were supported from it who again, bridget and so on. so, so we're driven by the chris wade quality on non racialism, and for justice, liberation of our own country. all beasts go through that route. we're not faced with the problem with we we, we approach that kind of issue with that kind of an i p live become that what they come in love with you answer a questions you will have you gone in. and one friend of mine is them is optim. what we can never accept as people wrote when we did full source of justice or human rights, is that hate cliffs that he's been split is the world to be and we're not part of

the hate this, that's the case for men, you must denounce to come to play tennis, no person with respect, if you could get an answer for the sake of main tennis or football, it will never happen. so they have to use that much. so in any case, in all of the, of one of buying, it would have big russian people. that's what you're kind of people we try both with the security interest or prison team will also try with the national of it. any c or president for you. right? ok, ok, sorry, cain yes. we probably will see you being so busy does all sorts of things. these are good to be losing this country. but one thing we must also be trying to use your claim and they'll say prisons the lives you must be aware of that we are

leaving for he's the on the board. i'm me, you are born in that is the day when i was going to go to point to be the president . but most common cause and realize that these people want to fight until the last to go on. you know, that was to put the weight weak is a loss when they used a new plate. as 10 am for the buck must come to an end. who was i bring the light by model is a disaster. therefore this they must come to an end through slave the 3 b discussion dialog and debates for now mrs. wiley, we have to put an end to both discussion dialogue and debate because we have to take a very short break, but we will be back in just a few moments. stay tuned. ah a

for a dollar a year. but why is it a

ford edge that will so please enjoy the issue. somebody over there also with lookout, them you up for you was up with the idea is you know that way. i don't mind ah welcome back to wells appointment a petition businessman and an ally of nelson mandela. missus equality

before the break. you mentioned that in your anti apartheid struggle, you were supported by people from around the world even though americans. but i know for a fact that nelson mandela, what might some time, i mean, this person who is now considered to be one of the carriers greatest areas of human conscience. he was considered a terrorist that he couldn't receive an american visa for quite some time. when in your own perception, when did that sweet occur? when he saw was some being seen as a, as a, as a terrorist and suddenly it became a one of the same. i've got news for you. i'm to this day. i'm $25.00 from we've got this case with no. so monday i went to the white house and met president george bush and other people on the device. and so one of the things i was with this question was this thing will be,

continue to tell, you know, that is possible, but it's in my passport. i'm sort of a switch because we, we, we were having the cuttings and the own up austin, the for the freedom of our people. now in america, another puzzle go to us. well, was the like, we'll see where some of the people are supporting us and some of the people are against us. but you know, when you become a president debate, i became a premier no so modality seemed residence. and during that time up with level 3 in america, but when i went and talked about business, you start to stream up with that this was so i kept on being stop at the airport and i guess i will give them because not the current administration, the time their best to change a lot. it was not easy. so with us, if i did it, but because we had one, you know, because we had prevails. it was no good music for america to punch in recording us

. there was but i'm saying that i'm good people in the united states than anywhere else in the world are good people with what we have to do through bates. good dial through to promote discussions. we have to make sure that this war comes to an end of affecting ask. it is affecting the well, the economy yesterday, only the international monetary fund, whether it is what has downgrade the growth of the world, you know, because of what is everything, not voice. so, but the sanctions because the both we love the less than but we did it and it's rock for any group of countries to dig it up. all the cells to put a gun and lives if you played because you're going to talk. if you do this in place for them, but i should when trouble, so everybody is good fight. so when you talk about the i'm russian un publish a is also posted to certain people. and i do not accept because there are also

people in this world. but we believe that every board, like the week there is a need for people to sit down and dissolve. unfortunately, the talk to, to have any bells have looked like see the present with the did and, but i want to you as somebody i know very well present with tie again, i know you said the didn't give me this meant the least. you almost baby to see you, but and often we thought the discussion inside listen to the fold up. questionable question of the my party is not an easy thing to take the 1st step, but somehow people have got to find it. and mr. second, a little bit because i have been calling for data for quite some time. and i know you've been following these calls like from it's very beginning, and i think it was in 2015 when you published an open letter to present to 10. and a president obama was overcome the hubris and come to the negotiating table. and to

some extent, this call was heated because president put in and present guided math in geneva last year. and they talked about the origins of their disagreements, but the united states continued militarize in ukraine and continued using its land to present the military french. russia, isn't there a certain point when the dial needs to stop so that the other side, you know, understands that then, you know, so using that dialogue to, to deliver harm, to its adversary, not my own own. our service, i know was going to be the soldier, goodbye our our come to us or your price, or more than 300 years where i understand this thing and whether another thing i feed, we can even play a role and play with us. you know, the about 2 months and the prison on both sides. we have been in prison for more

than 15 years. so i wanted to say that the time of value is always an opportunity to be seized. there's a lot lower cost. is that, oh, pretty much recap, i believe with all the leaders and i'm not talking for any organization. i don't a little program, this is business and so well as any time us not citizen and as somebody will do this that we might not be that clever. oh, it's a bug we'll wise wisdom means that we're seeing this thing before because it will end up in dire list. keep the door open and i'll leave with our brother in law school. am open, not dornbush at did and yourself. i understand what you said, but it's time for it to just sit down, find a way even, you know, just to meet face to face. i know it's not easy to take the 1st step. lead us was going to give up hope for me. i live in that hope, the knows whether we,

we negotiate, we started talking with the enemy of that wish it was we were still inside. and this is a folly, if the russian, any ukrainian people and they russia and ukraine leaders indeed decide to meet the thing. it's within the capacity of the ukrainian government of the ukrainian leadership to put on not only to put an end to that war, but to implement the commitments that they may take upon themselves among witches. for example, making ukraine neutral. i from what i hear of the russia official saying they don't want the ukrainian sovereignty, they don't want to decide anything for the ukrainians. what they want is, in your credit, you're going to be neutral. and so presenting a strategic threat to russian militarily. as long as that is taken care of ukrainians are free to perceive whatever flee they see for themselves. but do you think this decision rests within kia caves capacity or that it perhaps needs to be taken, taken elsewhere? and how would you persuade those powers elsewhere to commit to that?

i know yes, this is just one of the lease poverty, but that's the essence of negotiations and deliberations and dialogue and to promote discussion. those points are easy, are the points are to be handled as the discussions because the 1st thing is to say of all, did you see all hosting they can do no movement, go further movement of those. and then i can talk about the details of all these guarantees which all 5, once those are questions for the debate, you can, you can say do this before we go, then it's something that was negative that we're going to meet about the course. those things look good, but the subject of the discussion. so the only thing i'm see lead the brother or just the times is themselves discuss people come from outside and call more fuel into the situation. prisons, the one that was supposed to stand up as a president with a strength of your own people. and that's what he's passionate about. but be

careful that you play would not be controlled by others on those that you are with sophie's, your active voting, you know it and he's with, well, and he's a little bit well, but let's be convinced him and not other people behind this off thing. this is the problem, this, but tell us, and of course we broke all the weapons from outside, not be in the situation. we need more as to see more jaw, not wall. so the people who are bringing weapons, you know, maybe time for the warehouse all the way jofunia with that is what we're seeing. but the most common and, but definitely in this part of the world, we are not food. all these, these, this, the best things for that to go just to the questions and comments and then the big your left on your own. recap through when people are what is

better and i asked him very quickly about something that you mentioned before. the fact that this conflict is having the rest of the world. and there are many express how warning about the growing danger, not hunger in developing countries because of the rising fuel and for the prices are prompted by the, by the sections western sanctions against russia. isn't that also to some extent, a sign of supremacy when a 2nd part of the world can decide that everybody else can suffer because of his decision to penalize that's a rush or somebody else? isn't that the very essence, if you will, of apartheid or fashion? and how as the international community, we can deal with that so that you in south africa don't have to pay, let's say, for our russian mistake. because at this point of time, the most vulnerable countries are not even forced to carry the burden of the of the

western sanctions. because that west doesn't like something about russia. the group is a group of it is a limited works. remember when in the, in the solar system, where does the book take notice? communication from a police report is never such a high state. that's what i have been on the thought part of the world. so this focus is immediate in record time. but the point of a form off wall when you impose sanctions, just clearly wolfy, i guess other people is affecting us. now, what is the bed of peaks? we feed into the pencil bombs, which we did with ministers with almost every way. we're not part of this did, that's why we have got the right. i would say, why does this blackman's talking? well, he's right to the end of the web and sub i will the right to the center of the world to point a finger at the wrong thing about his deputy. we can kill the ban of the sanctions because they the go, the sanctions, the unilateral,

they're not united nation. we in south america live intent for 30 years. we asked from 1960 to 99. we're asked for can't just impose sanctions on south africa. they play jokes with us, did live dogs with us. the sanctions don't last have i had mouth where there was in one day. we understand the games are going to be all real things that like it. we're asking for people to recognize the 48 and i went to say this for the last time. the danger of what is happening in that part of the world. you can have this wall breaking out into something else because of mistakes. incompetence, like less ness or a miscalculation you see, let not the leaders of the world in this part of the world. nation, everybody including prison per diem, i in danger because other people may take advantage of the situation. and so am you

flat on top of the clearly lead us the white house? lead us the trembling lead us prison zelinski people have got to sit down and by the weight is the decimal. if you don't, there was she was friends of the checks nipple sheet with you. and then in that in with you see done, it may well get how the world war one what, who ended you know what it was. but today we can talk with jamie people, but when you just on, you know, you, you think is something that has been gone forever. i cry for the children on both sides of the fence. these are all the children that don does, the book called and quite close the door by shallow, the dawn with the shades, if the river by both washing any painting people, you all belong while mister separately, i call dad not only our past, but also our future but we have to live in there. thank you very much for your wisdom. i hope i'm,

i'm glad you did the luck stamp on the. but for the children live to school, there just conflicts. counter pinkish. i'm thank here. it's our viewers for watching home this year. again, next week. well the part with mm ah ah ah

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