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ah welcome to well the party that efforts to isolate a salad to west comparing it to apartheid to south south africa, claiming that depression were to have its own nelson mandela government, which to be ostracized and the country's economy. boy, what it is that a viable historical lesson to be applied again, or perhaps another international colonial thinking wants to discuss. and i'm now joined by and talk a now i hope, nelson mandela. this is a while. it's great to talk to you. thank you very much for your time as well. let's see. now, you're literally your worlds apart from russia and ukraine in johannesburg. some 50000 kilometers away from where we are. how much attention is given to this conflict in your part of the world and how is that covered the world? is that global really? you know,

from there is nothing separately any way whether it is in the whole do with a tank in model for right now. whether it is body music is there with that you're going over the discussion by law with or that we did these things on time on this one. and i must say you from the stops, we have it less. our disappointment am by the think, but there's been attempts to send some news. we come from the lens of nelson mandela. we come from the background and the history of a party, a party. it was a form or 1st resume, your u. s. and s. when the listeners must understand that these are all on the a lot of them sitting in nazi germany and after 945,

they can start their own off now doesn't or questions then with the party. so, so from the length of next monday, we know, once i shoot me, we know what the war he's, we'd know what aggression use and therefore the news is we wanted to where we see everything they're supposed to do with modern technologies. those are media, you know, that from the very beginning there has been a disagreement. oh, who are the main protagonist, whether it is neighborly, tries between a russian ukraine for the independence of your cream or whether it involves some other actors as well. how do you see when i started by expressing from my slides yellow, our sense of those most rare human beats. and i sense of the progress to see what i can see,

the brother and sister at wal ross. well this fiber optic us will have beaten by ukrainians and by a rush it was breaking silence. mcdaniels do so i me of all goes to who formed is the high break the seed grub? i insist i gave father sister. that's the 1st thing i want to say. we also believe, because remember, we do not have a kind of didn't belong to us. it belongs to the question. the mouse is waiting to hear the lester and many, many parts of the world give us the whole. marcia dogma, our whole, my home is a part of the time it was the this goes to who's of the soviet union. my whole was most school, and i said this in my whole watsonville group, it was a different, it was what we actually find that for our audience vickers in your younger years, you trained as

a military engineer in the saw that in to lots of places around the soviet union, can i ask you see this opportunity and ask you whether you saw any difference in the russians and the ukrainians at that time, political, ethnic culture. and do you think this war, this current conflict could have been avoided with the soviet union was not whatever differences the b, 5 among the people in your thought of info on what i was received by one group of people we never had who comes. i lived in central political desa is the boss support i lived in, in living? do i do the time for the record there with me? but most of the time we lived in moscow, what i'm going to do, maybe better the way that there's live up, be a will of these things. but when you buy one people, nothing for that. thus light. when the country is broken off in 1991, there's nothing we can do when this terrible quantity is taking place. it affects

us as well. and we'll hope and we have what suggestions about how this thing must come to an end. because all was at the end of the mouse come to an end when, before we talk about how it may and do you think it could have been to that? absolutely, absolutely. and i will say, what are state that the public i'll state what is the said over even by mean other, the end of 1945 would not change this thought is to all k we had to organizations when the cold war we got we had in the north atlantic to drug ambridge and that was done the sundays from impala these limited saturday organization. is there not a big organization or the programs if they asked for less than $45.00? until monday tonight i'm with where did the cold war?

and so when that was so forwarded over mid to was kept a life mental is a war organization. so the big so the progress of mental health care to life at no body can distill this and we're fight for this point. we need people to see that nobody can to see that, but you have to be here over and over again from western politicians, from nato officials that need harbors, no malicious intent v, russia. i did what i see as the flu fight the somebody who fought the strike is a party with legal cancer. we're healthy. what does natal doing now? think about what the government given them. weapons has been the, even the big news that web wants. people should not try to change. use the, i know today's quote unions who grunted dropped those 3 of the 5 i get that is under boost riskier. but if i got to fight against the attack was,

if it does become questionable by the full, they made little started will be what russia when you do this? no, i think can be done. when i said that was set up this one to step with about one off of route, but he's landed terrorists will come from iraq. celia and other have now come after got it does come to so many of them come to laws. i'm be next to us and they started the war here. this current last year, me our so just because the data is now next door, this time off of that is fully at will go. why? like use those? so not just thought are great and number of countries do what we call the software development for, which we went there because the data is a bit because the so affected local,

you must lead to the words about what was done is to we can see therefore 2 things will have the reaction that reaction or must go to some people who was your issue now or to some people in most, what was the national security interests of russia didn't come. nobody must come with the story that there's no with, with an oil a, this is a 10, and now the 15 grocer, we'll start with your list of your do that. and it comes with, it's all, you don't need to persuade me that you know, the russian security interest. i am bold, i will, i agree with you totally here. but still this is, i think this is going to be one of the most painful conflicts for russian recent history. precisely because of what you said we have most of us have family members

in ukraine. they have childhood memories in your brain. so even if the, you know, national security interests were involved, it was an extremely difficult decision. i will have to leave with the consequences of it for years and perhaps take it to come. now, i want to turn to your own story because you have a very interesting story of fighting for what you believe to be your country's destiny, being an anti apartheid student leader joining the organization of the african national congress. them being in, being in prison on the robin islands with nelson mandela, et cetera. in those times, did you ever doubt what was right and what was wrong? how did you arrive at your own conscience and your own piece of, you know, making those decisions because, you know, fighting against what you see as injustice. you can do that. you know,

in white glove. sometimes you take measures that you have and still you have to take them. the 1st of the philosophy of political struggle for liberation like yourself party because the almost losses in and stretches them was underpinned by the crests for justice wade quinn. i gained the least of them and we'd play with the whole what a bunch of bullshit american people supported us. mr. biden was one of the best of point us off associate is not posted. we were supported from in britain and so on. so, so we're given by the chris played quality or non reached allison and put justice, well the police of our own country, all these go through that route where you're faced with the problem with we, we, we are a current issue with that kind of an a p,

live become that what they wanted people obviously, you know what? yes or no questions. yeah. well, wasn't your gun? yes. and one friend of mine is them is optim. what we can never accept as people wrote when we did for social justice or human rights, is the hate slit that is being split in the world and will not be part of the hey, that's a, it's a sport men. you must be announced to come to play tennis. no person would expect it, you could get an answer. for the sake of main tennis or football, it will never happen. so they have to be split must. so in any case, in all possible though, we're not buying, it would've fig. russian, people straight as what you're kind of people we try both with the students in terms of present with team will also try with the national so any see or present for you

a case with you think sofi does all sorts of things either. it's good to believe this country, but one thing we must also, if you are trying to use your claim and they'll say person's lives, you must be aware of that we are leaving for a 4th. i mean, you are one and that is the day when i was going to go to point to the president. but most common cause and realize that these people want to fight until the last you go on, you know, there was to put them wait week is the last when they use the new plate as 10 am for the buck must come in and who was i bring it by model is a disaster, therefore this they must come to an end to say the 3 b discussion dialog and debates for now mrs. wiley, we have to put an end to both discussion dialogue and debate because we have to

take a very short break, but we will be back in just a few moments. stay tuned. ah for ah, a

ah ah ah, welcome back to wells appointment. ok say, well we have prominence out of it kind of petition businessman and an ally of nelson mandela. missus equality before the break. you mentioned that in your anti apartheid struggle, you were supported by people from around the world in the americans. but i know for a fact that nelson mandela white some time, i mean it,

this person who is now considered to be one of the carriers greatest carriers of human conscience. he was considered a terrorist that he couldn't receive an american visa for whites on a time when in your own perception, when did that switch occur when he stopped was some being seen as a, as a, as a terrorist and suddenly became a one of the same i've got news for you until this day i'm classified as a was to god this case was nelson mandela went to the white house and met president george bush and other people can get his eyes. and so one of the things i was lazy and i said this question was this thing of being continued to be trusted, right? this tell this, you know, that is possible, but it's in my passport, i'm still restricted, i go to america, does that a switch? because we, we, we, we, we, we're having the cottage and the owner, austin, the,

for the freedom of our people. now in america and other parts of the world go to wells world apart like we'll see where some other people are supporting us. and some of the people who are against us, but you know, when to become a president, people change. i became a prim. yeah. it does. the mother became a president. and during that time up with level $33.00 in america. but when i went and talked to one of the business, you start to stream up us with this was so i kept on being stop at the airport and i guess i will give them because i know the current administration, they've had their best to change a lot it was not that easy. so with us, if i did it, but because we had one, you know, because we had prevails. it was no good music for america to continue recording us . there was, but i'm saying that i'm good people in the united states than anywhere else in the world are good people in russia. what we have to do and bates,

good dialogue through diplomatic discussions. we have to make sure that this war comes to an end of thumb is affecting ascii is affecting the world economy yesterday. only the international monetary fund, whether it is worth as downgrade that the growth of the world, you know, because of what is everything, not voice. so but the sanctions because the pat both weights the last been but we did it and it's rock for any group of countries to dig it up or do cells to put a gun on. right. it's if you played because your grandfather a problem. so what is this fight? so when you talk about russian, you're in close to what i was also posted to a certain people. and i said we will also free people in this world. but we believe the board like the week there is a need for people to sit down and dissolve. unfortunately, the talk to, to have any bells they're both with and,

but i want to you as somebody i know over the way present, what do i again, i know you said the did and again, mid this meant the lose. you almost ready to see you, but and then we've got the discussion inside. listen to the question. no question of them up. i think it is not an easy thing to take the 1st step, but somehow people have got to find it a little bit because i have been calling for data for quite some time. and i know you've been following these calls like from it's very beginning and i think it was in 2015 when you published an open letter to present to 10 and a present a work on the hubris and come to the negotiating table. and to some extent, this call was heated because president put in and present biden math in geneva last year. and they talked about the origins of that disagreements. but the united

states continued military rising ukraine and continued to using it for land to present the military french russia. isn't there a certain point when the dial needs to stop? so that the other side, you know, i'm the sounds that then, you know, so using got dialogue to, to deliver harm to its adversary. no, no. i said i know was going to be the soldier guy. i'm us and song are come to us or to price or more than a 100 years. so i understand this thing and well do another thing i feel we can even play a role and play with us. you know the about 2 months and the prism of the horn, both sides. we have been in prison for more than 15 years. so i wanted to say that the time of value is always an opportunity to be seized. does luca lama top is oh that oh, pretty much

a life i'll leave with all the leaders. i'm not talking for in your organization. i don't a lot of organizations business and so, but as an international citizen and as somebody will do this they, we might not be that clever already. but we are wise with the means that we're seeing this thing before, because it will end up in dial list, keep the door open and i'll leave with brother in law school and open your hot dornbush at did and yourself. i understand what you said, but it's time for them to sit down, find a way even, you know, just to meet face to face. i know it's not easy to take the 1st step. lead of those give up hope for me. i live in that hope. the nose, mandela we, we negotiate, we started talking with the enemy of that, wish it was, we were still in this a fall. i, if i, the russian, any ukrainian people and they russia and ukraine leaders indeed decide to meet the

thing is within the capacity of the ukrainian government of the ukrainian leadership to put on not only to put an end to that war, but to implement the commitments that they may take upon themselves among which is for example, making ukraine neutral. i, from what i hear of the russia official saying they don't want the ukrainian sovereignty, they don't want to decide anything. so the ukrainians, what they want is in your credit, you're going to be neutral. and so presenting a strategic threat to russian militarily. as long as that is taken care of ukrainians are free to perceive whatever they see for themselves. but do you think this decision rests within kia caves capacity or that it perhaps needs to be taken, taken elsewhere, and how would you persuade those powers elsewhere? to commit to that? i know, yes this is, these plans have been placed poverty, but that's the essence of negotiation and deliberations and dialogue and to provide discussion. those points where easy are the points are to be handled as the

discussions because the 1st thing is to say in all these all since they can be no movement, go further movement of those. and then i can talk about the details of all these guarantees which all 5, once those up questions for the debate. you can, you can say do this before we go, then it's something that was negative, that would meet about the course. those things look good, but the subject of the discussion. so the only thing i'm see lead the brother or just like times is themselves discuss people come from outside and call more fuel into the situation, presents their lives is what that was supposed to stand up. not as a president with the strength of your own people, and that's what you question department, but be careful, but you plane would not be controlled by others on those that you are with. so these, you have to do by doing, you know, it, and he's, he's really good regular and he's

a little bit of work. but let's speak with him and not other people behind this off thing. this is the problem, this, but tell us, and of course the recording weapons from outside and not be in the situation. we need more as just to say more joe, joe, joe, not wall. so the people who are bringing weapons, you know, maybe time for the warehouse all the way just with that is what we're seeing. but this most companies. but definitely in this part of the world, we are not food by all. these is give me the best things for that to come to us to the end of the day. because the russians and economists and the end of the day, you are left on your own rico who, when people are, what is better? i asked him very quickly about something that you mentioned before. the fact that this conflict is having the rest of the world. and there are many express are wanting about the growing danger,

not hunger in developing countries because of the rising fuel and for the prices are prompted by the, by the sanctions, western sanctions against russia. isn't that also to some extent, a sign of supremacy when a 2nd part of the world can decide that everybody else can suffer because of his decision to penalize that's a rush or somebody else? isn't that the very essence, if you will, of apartheid or fashion? and how as the international community, we can deal with that so that you in south africa don't have to pay, let's say, for our russian mistake. because at this point of time, the most vulnerable countries are not even forced to carry the burden of the of the western sanctions. because that west doesn't like something about russia. the group is a good is a limited works. remember when in the, in the solar system, where does the book take?

those is communication from a police report. there's never such a high state. that's what happens on the small part of the world. so this focus is immediate in record time. but the point of a form of war when you impose sanctions ready, clearly warfare against other people is affecting us. no, whack is the bed of peaks. we feed into the pencil bombs, which we did with ministers in almost every way. we're not part of this, that's why we have good the rights. i would say, why does this blackman's turkey, who he's right to the end of the wedding sub i have well, the right to the citizens of the world to point a finger at the wrong thing. about his deputy, we can kill the bidding of the sanctions because they go the sanctions, the unilateral, they're not united nation. we in south monroe lieutenant for 30 years. we asked from 1960 to 9090. we're asked for can't just impose sanctions on south africa.

they play jokes with us, they live dogs with us, the sergeant, so do i have i have mouth where there was been one day. we understand the games are going to be all real things that we're asking for people to recognize the 48. and i went to say this for the last time, the danger of what is happening in that part of the world. you can have this wall breaking out into something else because of mistakes. incompetence, like less ness or a miscalculation is the lead, not the leader of the world in this part of the world. nation. everybody. including prism putting i in danger because other people may take advantage of the situation . and so it means that on top of the clearly lead us the white house lead us the claim lin, leader present zelinski. people have got to sit down and by the week is the model.

if you don't, there was she was friends of the checks. the nipple sheet was un, that in, with you see done in may. well, get how the world war one what, who ended, you know, what did with hitler, but today we can talk with jamie people. but when you do on, you know, you, do you think you something that has been gone forever? i cry for the children on both sides of the fence. these are all the children that don't does the book called and quite close the door by shallow. the dawn with the shades, if the river by both washing anything and people all belong while mister. so i called dad, so not only our past, but also our future, but we have to live in there. thank you very much for your wisdom. i hope i've unplugged your bridge does a lot stamp on the subject, but for the children live to school. there just conflicts. 100 pinkish. i'm thank here. it's our viewers for watching hope this year again next week. and well, the part,

ah ah ah ah ah, what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have. it's crazy confrontation,

let it be an arms race is on, often very dramatic development. only personally, i'm going to resist. i don't see how that strategy will be successful, very difficult. time. time to sit down and talk with the 20 and walk it full near a nuclear power plant and the country south controlled by russia. the 2nd time in 2 days, it's talking fresh phase of a potential disaster care about the western media pressure. and i'm, if the international saying story i've, it's report exposing the use of human shields by ukraine's military. but the n g o says it will still hold it down in revelation is rarely found it's military