a, we're pretty good regarding joe biden and imposing these sanctions on russia has destroyed the american economy. so there's your boomerang self ah, with welcome to all the parties that efforts to isolate loss call someone to west comparing it parkway, to south, south africa, claiming that depression were to have its own, nelson mandela. and would you government wish to be ostracized?

and the country's economy, boy, what it is that a viable historical lesson to be applied again, perhaps to another international colonial thinking wants to discuss. and i'm now joined by and talk to us at wiley moment. and so we can pull edition, and this is an ally of nelson mandela. this is a while. it's great to talk to you. thank you very much for your time as well. let's see. now you are literally your worlds apart from russia and ukraine in johannesburg. some 15000 kilometers away from where we are, how much attention is given to this conflict in your part of the world. and how is that covered the world? is that global? really? you know, there's nothing in the any way whether it is in the oscar to home do. well, i said thank you mario for right now, whether it is body music is there with them, or you're going over the discussion by law with or that

we did these things on time on this one. and i must say you from the stops, we have it less. our disappointment, am i the think that there's been an attempt to send some news? we come from the length of nelson mandela. we come from the background and the history of our policies. a party, it was a for more fish is room your us and as well as the listeners must understand that these are all on the a lot of them sitting in nazi germany. and after $945.00, they came here to start their own home off. now just them or fresh is then with the party. so, so from the length of nestor monday, we know one since i see we know what the war he's, we know what aggression is. and therefore when the news is,

when on the web you see everything is supposed to do with modern technology. media . you know that from the very beginning it, there has been a disagreement. oh, who are the main protagonist, whether it is neighborly, tries between russia and ukraine for the independence of ukraine, or whether it involves some other actors as well. how do you see when i started by expressing from my slides yellow, our sense of cuts go straight, human beats. and i sense of the progress to see what i consider brothers and sisters at war ross on this travel classic us who have been helped by ukrainians and by russia was breaking silence mcdaniels do so i me of all goes to who formed is the high break receipt grub,

i insist i gave father sister. that's the 1st thing i want to say. we also believe because the, remember we do not have a kind of didn't belong to us. the most of it washes them than most is when you're the last night. and many, many parts of the world give us the whole. marsha dogma, our whole, my home is a part that i was the this go. so who's of the soviet, do my own want most school, and i said this in my whole wasn't that over. he's also this, or it was what we find that for our audience. because in your younger years, you trained as a military engineer in this offer that to lots of places around the soviet union. can i ask you this opportunity and ask you whether you saw any difference between the russians and the ukrainians at that time, political, ethnic culture? and do you think this war, this current conflict could have been avoided with the soviet union was not

whatever differences the could it be the 5 among the people in your thought of info on what i was with received by one group of people we never had to go on and i lived in central for the not this is of us the point i live in, in live in do i do the time for the, the order with it. but most of the time when you do multiple, what are the differences? maybe but the way that this will be a will of these things. but when you buy one people, nothing was it thus lighted. when the country is broken off in 1991, there's nothing we can do. when this devil constant is taking place. it affects us as well. and we'll hope, and we have what suggestions about how this thing must come to an end, because all was at the end of the last come to an end. when, before we talk about how it may and do you think it could have been to that of sort of and i will say, what are stated in public?

i'll state what is the said over even by mean other p as the end of 1945 would not change this thought is to on k, we had to organizations when the cold war we got we had not prompted to juggle this . and that also does the sundays from impact these limited, sadly, organization. is there not a big organization or the program? they pushed us from 1945 until monday. tonight, i'm with where did the cold war, and so when that was all forwarded over mid to last kept a life mental is a war organization. so the big so the progress of mental health care to life at no body can distill this and we're fight for this point where the people see if we're able to see that nobody can see that. but yet we hear over and over again from

western politicians, from nato officials that need harbors no malicious intent v. russia. i did what i see is the flu. find somebody who for the strike use a party where legal kansas were helping. what was natal doing through the government? given them weapons has been the given the with ones. yeah. people should not try to change. use the i know today's convenience. who grunted dropped. the 3 of the 5 i get that is under gus was been in 5. got to fight against the attack was if it does become questionable by the full we may need to start, that will be what russia when you do this, no, i think can be done. when i said that was set up. this one was i'm good. what

about one hour ramps, but he's landed terrorists will come from iraq. celia and other have now come after got it does come to some of the of the come to mars. i'm be next to us and they started the war here. this current last year need our so just because the data is now next door, this time off of that is fully, it will go fight like use those. so not just a number of countries you want to call the south african development for which we went there. because the data is a bit because the thought affected, nobody must lead to the words above what was done is to we can see, therefore, 2 things will have the reaction that reaction or must go to some people who was your issue now or to some people in most, what was the national security interests of russia didn't come.

nobody must come with the story that there's no with, with an oil a, this is a 10, and now the 15 groove, we'll start with your good list of your do that. and it comes with it so you don't need to persuade me that you know, the rational security interest and both i will i agree with you totally here. but still this is, i think this is going to be one of the most painful conflicts for russian recent history. precisely because of what you said we have most of us have family members in ukraine. they have childhood memories in your brain. so even if the, you know, national security interests were involved, it was an extremely difficult decision. i will have to leave with the consequences of it for years and perhaps take it to come. now i want to turn to your own story

because you have a very interesting story of fighting for what you believe to be your country's destiny, being an anti apartheid student leader joining the aren't organization of the african national congress. them being in outside being in prison on robin island, but nelson mandela, et cetera. in those times, did you ever doubt what was right and what was wrong? how did you arrive at your own conscience and your own piece of, you know, making those decisions because, you know, fighting against what you see as injustice. you can do that. you know, in white glove. sometimes you take measures that you have and still you have to take them. the 1st of the philosophy of political struggle for liberation, like yourself are people, almost losses in and stresses them was underpinned by the quests. for justice

wade quinn, i gained the least of them and we'd play with the whole world. moto 1st american people supported us. mr. biden was one of the best point us associate is not posted . we were supported from everywhere in britain and so on. so, so we're given by the chris lee quality on non greece. listen and for justice, well, the foundation of our own comes all the go through that route where you're faced with a problem with we, we, we are a current issue with that kind of an i p live become that what they wanted people obviously, you know, what yes or no questions? yeah. well, wasn't your gun? yes. and one friend of mine is them is optim. what we can never accept as people we did for social justice or human rights, is that hey split. that is being split is the well to be and will not be part of

the he does not say it's a sport man. you must be announced to come to, to play tennis, no precedent with a spec. if you could get an answer for the sake of playing tennis or football, it will never happen. so they have to use that much. so in any case, in all parts of the, of one of buying, it would have speak russian, people straight as what you're kind of people, we try both with the security. so president team will also try with the national so that any c or president for, for you, you know, if i can, yes, we probably will see. you think sofi does all sorts of things. neither did release in this country. but one thing we must also find to use your claim and those 5 persons that lives you must be aware of that we are leaving for

a meet. you are one and that is the day when i was going to go to point to the president. but must come and then realize that these people want to fight until the last to go on. you know, there was to put them wait week is the last when they use the new great as 10 am for the buck must come to and then who was i bring it by model is a disaster. therefore, this, they must come to an end to say the 3 b discussion dialog and the base for now, mr. sec. while we have to put an end table discussion dollars in debate because we have to take a very short break, but we will be back in just a few moments. stay tuned. ah ah

ah, what a toilet. talked too much about the school hopeful, but i see quite a few with julia because she's somebody over there with

us. you talk video with lookout, i'm you up for you was up with the and i do so as you know that way. i don't like a mm mm mm. welcome back to wells appointment. okay. say, well,

we have prominent south african application businessman and an ally of nelson mandela, mrc welling before the break. you mentioned that in your anti apartheid struggle, you were supported by people from around the world in the americans. but i know for a fact that nelson mandela white some time, i mean this person who is now considered to be one of the carriers greatest areas of human conscience. he was considered a terrorist that he couldn't receive an american visa for quite some time. when in your own perception, when did that sweet occur? when he saw was some being seen as a, as a, as a terrorist. and suddenly it became a, one of the st. are good news for you on to this day. i'm a with to got this case with nelson mandela went to the white house and met president george bush and other people on the device. and so

one of the things i was with this question was this thing will be continued to be classified as you know, that is possible, but it's in my passport. i'm sort of a switch because we, we were having the cuttings and the own. austin, the for the freedom of our people. now in america and other parts of the world to us, well was the part like you'll see where some of the people are supporting us. and some of the people are against us. but you know, when you become a president debates, i became a plan. yeah, it doesn't matter. became a president. and during that time up with level $33.00 in america. but when i went and talked to one of the business, you started showing my possible again, this was so i kept on being stuck at the efforts. and i guess i will give them because i know the current administration, the time that best to change a law, it was not so with us if i did it. but because we had one, you know,

because we had prevails. it was no good music america to continue recording us. there was but i'm saying that i'm good people in the united states than anywhere else in the world are good people in russia. what we have to do to bait that route through diplomatic discussions. we have to make sure that this war comes to an end of sun is affecting ascii is affecting the world economy yesterday. only the international monetary fund. what devices west has downgrade the growth of the world. you know, because of what does everything not look voicemail but the sanctions because the both weights not the less than that because it and it's rock for any group of countries to dig it up. one of them sells to put a gun and right, it's if you played with russia graham problem, if you do the simplest point in budget, wind trouble. so everybody's good fight. so when you talk about the russian,

you end up being terrorized also posted to certain people and that will not accept because there are also people in this world. but we believe that everybody like the week there is a need for people to sit down and just sort of unfortunately the talk to, to have any bells have not see their prism pointing to the rest of it. but i want you as somebody i know that will present with tie again. i know you said the did it again. miss man duluth, almost baby. to see him. but and then we've got the discussion inside. listen to the fold up question or questions. my party is not an easy thing to take the 1st step, but somehow people have got to find it. mr. second a little bit because i have been calling for data for quite some time. and i know you've been following these calls like from it's very beginning, and i think it was in 2015 when you published an open letter to present brewton and

president obama overcome the hubris and come to the negotiating table. and to some extent, this call was heated because president put in and present guided math in geneva last year. and they talked about the origins of their disagreements, but the united states continued militarize in ukraine and continued using its land to present the military french. russia, isn't there a certain point when the dial needs to stop so that the other side, you know, understands that then, you know, so using that dialogue to, to deliver harm, to its adversary, not my own own. our so that i know was going to be the soldier. i've seen people that are come to us. all right, well more than 300 years. so i understand this thing and well do another thing i feel we can even play a role and plug it with us, you know,

about 2 months and the business of on both sides. we have been in prison for more than 15 years. so i wanted to say that the time of value is always an opportunity to be seized. there's a lot lower cost. is that? oh, pretty much recap a life. i'll leave with all the leaders and i'm not talking for any organization. i don't a little program, this is business and so, but any time us not citizen, and if somebody will do this, then we might not be that clever. ok, but we are wise. wisdom means that we're seeing this thing before, because it will end up in dial list, keep the door open and i'll leave our brother in law school. am open not, don't wish it did and yourself. i understand what you said, but it's time for them to sit down, find a way even, you know, just to me, please to faith. i know it's not easy to take the 1st step. lead up possibly give

up hope for me. i live in that hope. the knows whether we, we negotiate, we started talking with the enemy of that, wish it was. we were still in such a fight if the russian, any ukrainian people and they russia and ukraine leaders indeed decide to meet the thing. it's within the capacity of the ukrainian government of the ukrainian leadership to put on not only to put an end to, that's why, but to implement the commencement that they may take upon themselves among which is for example, making ukraine neutral. i from what i hear on the russian official saying they don't want the ukrainian sovereignty, they don't want to decide anything for the ukrainians. what they want is new credit . you're going to try and stop presenting a strategic threat to russian militarily. as long as that is taking care of ukrainians are free to receive whatever they see for themselves. but do you think this decision rather within key key capacity or that it perhaps needs to

be taken, taken elsewhere. and how would you persuade those powers elsewhere to commit to that? i know you're busy with poverty, but that's the essence of the worst case. and deliberations and i look into my discussion. those points were easy and the point is ought to be handled as the discussion because the 1st thing is decision of all these offices. they did no movement or fellow who went on and then can talk about the details of august guarantees. we also want those up questions for the debate. you can say do this before we go, then it's something that magnitude, but we're going to meet about distance of course, those things magnitude. but the subject of the discussions is so the only thing of m. c led the brother all the time to themselves discuss people come from outside and call more fuel into the situation. prisons the lives that are supposed to been

to spend as the president with the strength of your own people. and that's what you questions about. but be careful, but you plane would not be controlled by others on those that you are with. so these you have to do by doing, you know it and he's really good regular and it's going to take a little bit of work. but let me give him a lot of people behind this house law. thank. this is the problem this, but tell us and of course the recording weapons from outside not be in the situation. we need more as church to see more jaw, not wall. so the people who are bringing weapons, you know, maybe time for the warehouse all the way just with that is what we're seeing. but this most. but definitely in this part of the world, we are not food for all these. give me the best things for that to go just to the

end of the day. because the questions and comments and then the big your left on your own rica when people are what is better. and i asked him very quickly about something that you mentioned before, the fact that this counseling is having the rest of the world. and there are many express how warning about the growing danger, not hunger in developing countries because of the rising fuel and for the prices are prompted by the, by the sections western sanctions against russia. isn't that also to some extent, a sign of supremacy when a 2nd part of the world can decide that everybody else can suffer because of his decision to penalize that's a rush or somebody else? isn't that the very essence, if you will, of apartheid or fashion? and how as the international community, we can deal with that so that you in south africa don't have to pay, let's say, for our russian mistake. because at this point of time,

the most vulnerable countries are not even a forced to carry the burden of the of the western sanctions. because that west doesn't like something about russia. the group is a group of it is a limited works. remember when in the, in the solar system, where does the book take notice? communication from a police report is never such a high state. that's what i have been on. the thought part of the world is focus, focus is immediate in record time. but the point of a form of war when you impose sanctions ready, clearly warfare gives other people is affecting us. no, whack is the bed and all peaks. we feed into the pencil bombs, which we did with mrs. if you need almost every way. we're not part of this, that's why we have got the right. i would say, what is this blackman's turkey, who he's right to the end of the web and sub i will the right to the 2nd of the world to point a finger at the wrong thing. about his deputy,

we can kill the ban of the sanctions because day the go, the sanctions, the unilateral, they're not united nation functions. we in south monroe lieutenant for 30 years. we asked from 1960 to 9090. we had asked full contest imposed sanctions on south africa. they play jokes with us, did live dogs with us, the sanctions or just have i had mouth where there was been one day. we understand the games are going to be all real things that we're asking for people to recognize the for it. and i went to say this for the last time, the danger of what is happening in that part of the world. you can have this wall breaking out into something else because of mistakes, incompetence and recklessness, or a miscalculation is the right not the leader of the world in this part of the world . nation, everybody including prison per diem,

i in danger because other people may take advantage of the situation. and so am you flat on top of the clearly lead us the white house? lead us the claim, lin, lead us prison zelinski. people have got to sit down and by the way, the decimal, if you don't, there was, she was friends of the checks negotiate with you. and then in that, in with you see, don, it may well get how the war, what, what, who ended, you know, what did with it. but today we can talk with jamie people. but when you get on, you know, you, you think you something that he's been gone for, i buy a car for the children on both sides of the fence. these are all the children that don does, the book called and quite close the door by shuttle. the door, we said we were both watching anything and people all belong. well mr said i called dad not only our past but also our future,

but we have to leave it there. thank you very much for your wisdom. i hope i have a stamp on this, but for the children live to school. there just conflict country. thank you. it's our viewers for watching home this year again next week. well the part, ah with mm ah ah .

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