rules for that, but when we look, let's say in the american constitution, they not only define themselves as exceptional, but also see themselves as a automate judge, almost the replacement of god. i wonder if this russian american rivalry over the years is partially spiritually based over whether one country can be the ultimate just what is good and what is evil in international affairs. i refrain from making normative judgments, but every church believes it's a joke and it has a direct line to, to gun and a christian it though. so america, it, which is actually becoming less and less so it's not so different from

as a viral one that was in the center, not the specialist was also the church in russia, but they believes that is very valuable in. no, it's all in design. you know, it's coming back. absolutely, but i think any self conscious nation wants to build its own, you know, have only jerusalem and that's for sure. but i think very few nations, in fact, only one nation claims that you know, this is the one the only have only jerusalem. you know that. and the russian also allows for the multiplicity of gardens. the question is whether the americans are ready to leave, even after these, you print in crisis, whether they are ready to stop, then they can be a multiplicity of developmental past in the world. and that not everything. and not everybody will play to tune. i would agree, is it so is it missionary stain in american foreign policy?

and this is why we have those complaints for democracy and the campaigns for human rights, which is truly blue ridge, national interest of the united states. and this is part of america. and there was some positive sinks about it, some negative things about that. but this is towards that. so is a mesh mission of israel, sometimes in american foreign policy. and which is not prismatic, when you displace too much of this type of desire will be moral and imposed. it's morality on the hello. now and one of your articles he pointed out that you korean experience in the last one on one as you put in the roof last russian neighbor, i will reinforce israel's belief in self

protection doctrine that in the times of crisis, you can only rely on yourself even if you nominally have very, very strong ally, do you think israel will be the only country to, to draw such lesson or do you think they will be more conscious that they'll stop relying on hooley, on, on the power of american returns? i think we see in the middle east the clear with development in that direction because americans are signaling or the story of ministration. obama, dom and does a by nurse questions that they don't want to be as i may please. they want to retreat and to focus on the chinese challenge. and as a result of that is our going feels particularly among those that boeing producing countries said, so we're really main was out the shield against the ha no. why don't i to will. so

is, and as a result of that, of course we see the alignment was isn't and but israel definitely has the self reliance. milton, from the very beginning, this is also a jewish experience. and i am at a disdainful, says a, you know, zone i, investor guarantees on up the world much and her, i think, same king as made the mistake, hoping that the west will intervene on their behalf. and despite those a hell, said the worst case providing to claim, but no single american soldier cost the same crumbled. can i also ask you about your a because your, after very long pass, this is spell and now seems to be more willing to invest into its own designs. perhaps even a offense. and that is very visible in germany. germany very dramatically

rose and expenditures. is that something a natural to be expected? or is it something to be well worried about that in historical hindsight, being made the mistake of the end of the call believing that they are going into a paradise. and those are national security problem, so will be sort of after the defeat, those, the soviet union. so of course that whole thing. this is a awakening. pull you up. i'm not sure i don't get to a less and maybe it will fail, you know, is this dilemma between the and guns i though i may fail to be, but those are those in use. the money for guns, but this room has to be seen, but clearly. so there's a change of attitude in your many or countries in on is

a show for national defense. i guess it's my final question a you mentioned this choice didn't butter and guns. and clearly there is also an economic damage that's coming to all sides from a very harsh sanctions introduced by europe and the united states. you mentioned before that your ultimate test for foreign policy is how well it serves national interests based on that, the policy of sanctions is good enough for the europeans because it seems to be hurting. not only the russians only the europeans, but also much of the much of their will. that has absolutely nothing to do with you know, a, all the arguments didn't rush in the way. no. some really economic sanctions were really successful. and, oh, america. i did sanctions against iraq against cuba for many years and didn't change

behavior of the country. so they need to suffer and to pay heavy price for continued was our policy a i don't really much if for as the sanctions were changed, i was a calculator. so fashion leadership and of course the may still be seen, we shouldn't forget that as a sanctioned host. those, those are with the you up in particular is dependent on russian n, o g, a russian weight. so it is so, you know, in every world we have 2 equations, one can cause a mold damage, but or so another equation was the countries that can take a most definitely no for looking at history. i think her show

is displayed their willingness to a cost full well what it believes it's too well. i agree with you, but i also think that russia definitely has showcase capability to suffer a lot. but it also has demonstrated a willingness to reach some sort of a compromise with israel tricky, or many other contentious neighbors and partners. i hope the west can also learn from that is only possibly know why they've outcome will be the people on the station. oh, okay. is there a delay has already announced he's not going to join, but they don't think so. russia miscalculated is a competent. so if it's melissa, we focus and that will set to the phone. you know, it's more polco crane by then. no one said, you know,

one more piece it's ok. so maybe this will be they'll come in a bug or washington. well, time they'll tell of it for the time being. we have to leave it here. thank you very much for your insights. you're welcome and thank you for watching hope to see you again next week on will the card with me ah, ah, nice to come to the russian states will never be tied as on the north landscape

with will ban in the european union. the kremlin. yup. machine, the state aren't russia today, and c, r t sport next. even our video agency, roughly all band to on youtube with a,

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a history gravitating to some moral has been one of the most generated and most destructive western concepts giving rise to buy with in your brain rekindling the dispute about the right then the bottom sides of history, channel russia, and the last meeting. somewhere in the middle of the discomfort, i'm now joined by a friend in barbara, president of the jerusalem institute for strategic studies. professor invites great to see you, great to talk to you. thank you very much for your time. my pleasure. you wrote recently about the seemingly existential political need to be the best being on the right side of history. if we try to put quality center baganda out of it and look at it from historical and perhaps psychological perspective,

what do you need the righteousness? i don't believe the right side of history basically is the history is written by the victim of the walls. and this, that remains in the future is the one that is defined by the victim. by the way, hitler was not far from victory. if you would ever put more attention to the nuclear racial rather than longer, that you might have been the victim. would it be a good story about that? now the tensions between russia and the west, especially over ukraine, have been building for quite some time a couple of years, no decades. and yet when i interview western experts, they always point out that the russian actions in ukraine, however disagreeable they may be, are totally approval. they see this totally unprovoked,

certainly coming out of the blue. do you think that's a delivery? that's the station or is it a genuine blindness on that part that they somehow missed the last couple of years of the very tenuous relationship. it's been our size. i can understand for security dilemma, somebody that tries to defend himself and accumulates both military power to defend it. at the same time it is set to its name. so this type of situation saline i, i definitely understand is her desire for larger margins of security. hey, we have to remember that so now expended the east well, closer to wash and bull nose. and when it was promised to do the kremlin, what else at the time?

you know, this will not happen. i am pretty sure not to doesn't. how about any offensive inventions? but there's the same time, it's really difficult to dismiss the feels over shop and to have historic feel. so renovation from the, from the west. so this is precisely the problem of a security dilemma or in bar we often hear from the next person, right. nathan doesn't harbor any explicit intentions in russia, but, you know, looking at some of the recent actions by major members in libby or in syria, you know, they, maybe they were not intentional, but they have not the last. i mean, is it really so crucial to, you know, have these written as a statement of purpose that a once you attack russia rather than, you know,

receiving from the reality perspective and seeing what nature members have done militarily in recent history, i think and understanding was obama and, well, i mean, we slipped the lessons in libya and the silly i think by the russians, justly or not as it is a middle east. so they think that they're like doing toby as americans disagree and instead of sitting down and trying to divide, you know, divide zillow. this is the. * obama, this is my palm and then tied to exist as it was doing the called the law. and i think i am there is a understanding in the west on how to run foreign policy.

they become too liberal or heavy illusion. say about what the international relations please and this result of that for the army misperceptions on both sides. now. 6 i think it from your writing that you take the full selma of national interest rather than morality as the ultimate measure of any policy you wrote that and then we'll be hearing that no country is allowed to gamble on its very existence. and i think that's pretty clear and how israel conducts itself on the international stage. but if we look at the ration from that perspective in russia had the choice app and then to act militarily with ukraine becoming increasingly militarized and increasingly hostile to russia. this will allow us to clarify, a country has no white, no model to commit suicide. and so for

a test to act upon its internet international, it's national interest. those choices, though he's a choice to surrender or so. so i show obviously as many choices. and they chose to act mean don't really know though to defend its national interest in ukraine or this was following the serious owning it, but so it was didn't they could to us and i'm not making any judgment a judge. i can understand your behavior overstayed that once a month it's a once large amount of security. and i would like to point out that it was to some extent was out caution when you leave next to a big bear like russia. you have to be careful that so i have

a chuckle about russia being there, i think a little bit more civilized than leaving that. but you know, in that the perception, so be i want to ask you about a country where is that the addition of using phones? now if you can obviously go, yeah, absolutely. and israel is also and it's like being much smaller. it's also a country that takes in survival very seriously, and you are definitely not shy about striking targets on the country territory. and i think to some extent, israel, of course, projection projection relies on its adversaries knowing that some sort of retribution is inevitable. so i want to ask you whether you think that the drastic actions that she's now taking in ukraine is that there at least partially

conditions on russia being has a, tend to flip all as to your math and for way too long. have russia reacted earlier and more forcefully when the current prices have been avoided? doing things it could have been by yeah, i really bye bye not to states paying attention to russian security concerns l. so by z, hugh lease offers o crane in leadership and not the understanding that there are certain anxious may provoke or russian sensitivities. and there is the result, though we have no, it will deny, which is not the really nice thing. people who lose their lives. cities are destroyed and but this, this spelt of wall now within the western camera,

israel has a very interesting position because it tends to whoa last side, many western resolutions condemning russia's behavior. but it is also non dismissive of russia security concerns what the israel's game or the israel or rationale in this company is lashley honestly clue own on hand. we also know dependent upon the united states or what's, what's the cause of free will, and are we on, i want to be, it is american care. on the other hand and not file form will i leave, am 0 ocean. so me, in celia. and though we reach an agreement to coordinate to our military actions, there was a very mid sylvia against union thong, which is something which is extremely important to his national security. and we

want to make sure is a dis, circle with the nation, a continuous, which is dependent upon a russian goodwill in the national interest. and so we try to balance our no participation in, in what schools are western cam. it was said air listing position. this a v o our enable which is a national lachaise, our neighbor, and to have to take it into consideration. we are not acting idealistically. i think they general outlook cove is lady fawn policies and quality. and as a result of that, we are trying to balance those through interest, which is not going to be that india is doing the same amount of countries. so doing the same without the loan, in what you call this game. russia is any boat and you have to take into consideration. it's national interest. and when we, if you seen it,

you mentioned russia presents in syria. and i think one out of can you to mention here is turkey. and i think you would probably agree that in syria, russia was both firm and accommodating. it was respectful of both turkeys and israel's central security considerations. but it also could be power on some of the actions when, when it deemed in them this. so that allows me to conclude that at least with israel and turkey interior, russia has learned how to differentiate the various uses of power and why didn't weren't the same way with your brain. mike lee was doing a quick math when he decided to intervene on a dig into a situation is wally and play a little in

a new class. basic is always know it currently those sheep. and which is that. and i would say to know at the luncheon and namo it was ideal for being part of the view. it has didn't play a game. and as a result of that, and as i mentioned, this is one of these proposals we are witnessing. now since i mentioned turkey, you know that it's a very challenging partner for both russia and these are especially under prime minister and i'm at a prime minister. yeah, that's my mistake president. how could i forget that? but anyway, he's been a really,

was with tom here. he's in powerful way for quite some time and 2001. yes. and our countries have gone through the periods of acute crisis and very pragmatic relationship. and we managed to restore some sort of partnership and the very precarious incident back in 2015 when the church shut down a russian military just in syria which, which was taken in moscow as a, as a staff in the back. and yeah, it's work towards restoring some sort of a pragmatic relationship. good serve as a model for, you know, future adversaries to that serve as a model for either russia and ukraine going forward, or perhaps russian, the west going forward. basically, my knowledge. and this is what we see developing is that is all again between the united states a and i am and there's

a lot of times when i make i had a different leadership and the 2 countries you don't like. you see, i definitely have the blow, the flag, the united states doesn't have to do it. this time understands international politics. understands politics and understands that sometimes you have to accommodate your lease because they have ran national interest and day in international relations. unless you are extremely strong, you can get that in bar, we have to take a very short break right now. we will be back in just a few moments. h n a we're okay

with what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have crazy confrontation, let it be an arms race is very romantic and getting to resist. i don't see how that strategy will be successful, very difficult time. time to sit down and talk

a news media was kind of in that if you speak russian, keep your voice down while out and about a couple of don't put your human symbols on display a guy. so you guys don't talk to strangers. 7 i avoid noisy gatherings with your colleagues and perhaps also your friends think you're guilty because you'll russian a

minute for a specific social with with us. i started that boy will not be up with a deal for one year for a both on the blood lab, but a lot of people like them on the things that i want, but the head nozzles, but the point of this on the phone i think, but but i had, i left that vision with dish due by.