this direction because of the force of the d. p. r. machine federation in the city of pesky. moving further west storming to the fence of the armed forces of ukraine in the direction of the dog in order to liberate the entire territory of the tpr and don't bus in the near future. thanks for joining us. there were no international web back in 30 minutes with the very latest. we'll see that ah ah ah, welcome back to will the party with and frame in for president of the jerusalem institute for strategic studies. professor in bar, one of the proposed gold rush and military operation in ukraine. he's the so called

to see cation and i have to say that when i 1st heard this term, it sounded very odd and artificial. i think it was the russian speakers a couple of weeks to even learn how to pronounce it without stumbling, having sad, do you thing now says an old fashion has ever been a problem in more than day ukraine. a modern day who remember who i did was that was the nazi but i do, i do not know enough about you know, the politics of a claim today to be able to respond to that. i must say that, you know, this sentences sounds very strange to what the western is and even here and it's where we have, you know,

a population a, i think, you know, if i would have to advise mister booth and i would advise him to use a different sentence to justify his the will. now can i brought in this out towards the issue of nasa because i think the address on on 2 pillars. one is this idea of exceptional or sacred nature of any given. and the 2nd i thing is the, this issue on the, on the end of history that history has some predetermined more, as we know, people are, was trying to bring that about. is that a concept that is being reliable, not only let's say in your brain, but also more broadly movies that you consider most of the chosen people. so, and nobody, you know, saying that this is any of those,

not this but you know, many nationalities things out. and so this is a low nationalism. and again, i think that this choice of who owns it was not as a best one. but a, you mentioned the just consider themselves the chosen people that you're not trying to impose your way of life. and you're quite restrictive about who can join your, your people's rules on that. but when we look, let's say in the american constitution, they not only define themselves as exceptional, but also see themselves as a, the ultimate judge, almost the replacement of god. i wonder if this russian american rivalry over the years is partially spiritually based over whether one country can be the ultimate

just what, what is good and what is evil in international affairs. i refrain from making normative judgments, but i know every church believes it and it has a direct line to, to god and a christian it though. so america it, which is actually becoming less and less so it is not so different from the environment. when that was in the center, not especially when the orthodox church in russia, but they believes there is a revival in its own and design, you know, it's coming back. absolutely. but i think any self conscious nation wants to build its own, you know, have only jerusalem. that's for sure. but i think very few nations, in fact,

only one nation please that you know, this is the one the only have only jerusalem. you know that. and the russian also say, allows for the multiplicity of gardens. the question is whether the americans are ready to leave even after the ukrainian crisis, whether they are ready, so that they can be a multiplicity of developmental past in the world. and that not everything. and not everybody will play to tune i want agrees that so is the missionary stain in american foreign policy. and this is why we have those complaints for democracy and the campaigns for human rights, which actually blue ridge, national interest of the united states. and this is part of america and 0,

some positive sinks about it though some negative things about it, but distorted. so his emotional mission of israel, sometimes in american foreign policy and which is not prismatic, when he displaced too much of this type of desire to be moral and imposed. it's morality on the hello now and one of your articles he pointed out that ukrainian experience being last one on one as you put it. a ruthless russian neighbor, what will reinforce israel's believe in south protection doctrine that in the times of crisis, you can only rely on yourself even if you nominally have very, very strong ally. do you think israel will be the only country to, to draw such lesson or do you think they will be more conscious that they'll stop relying on hooley, on, on the power of american deterrence?

they think we see in the middle east the clear with development in that direction because americans are signaling or the story of ministration. obama come and there's a by nurse questions that they don't want to be as me please. they want to retreat and to focus on the chinese challenge and as a result of that, so those are going feels particularly among those. so that boy will do seen countries said so willingly man without a shield against the hon. why don't i do so? and as a result of that, of course we see the alignment was excellent and but is well definitely has less self reliance. milton, from the very beginning, this is also a jewish experience. and am that a discerning false? as a you know, zone i, investor guarantees on afterwards much. and i think sam king has made a mistake,

hoping that the westwood intervene on our behalf. and despite goes ahead said the worst case providing to claim. but no single american soldier cost us so crumbled. can i also ask you about your because your, after very long pass, this is spell and now seems to be more willing to invest into its own designs. perhaps even a sense. and that is very visible in germany, germany very dramatically rose expenditures. is that something natural to be expected? or is it something to be well worried about that in historical hindsight, being made the mistake of the end of the call. believing that they are going into a paradise and those are national security problems,

so will be sort of after the defeat of the soviet union. so of course that whole thing. this is a awakening for you. oh, i'm not sure how don't get to a less. and maybe it will fail, you know, is this dilemma between the and guns i may fail to be, but those are those in use, the money for guns, but this room has to be seen, but clearly. so there's a change of ethical within, you know, in many or countries in on is a show for national defense. i guess it's my final question a, you mentioned this choice in butter and guns. and clearly there is also an economic damage that's coming to all sides from a very harsh sanctions introduced by europe and the united states. you mentioned

before that your ultimate test for foreign policy is how well it serves national interest. based on that, do you think the policy of sanctions is good enough for the europeans because it seems to be hurting not only the russians only the europeans, but also much of the much of their will. that has absolutely nothing to do with, you know, a, all the arguments in russian, the way we're really economic sanctions. we're really successful in, oh, america, right? sanctions against iraq against cuba for many years and didn't change behavior of the country. so i need to suffer and to pay heavy price for continue was our policies a i don't really much is for as a sanctions, fuller change? i was a calculator. so fashion leadership. and of course the may still be seen. we shouldn't

forget that as a sanctioned host. those those, the, with the you up in particular is dependent on russian n, o g, a russian weight. so it is so, you know, in every world we have 2 equations. one can cause a mold damage, but or so, and i don't equation it was the countries that can take a most definitely no for looking at history. i think her show is displayed their willingness to work a cost full well what it believes it's too well. i agree with you, but i also think that russia definitely has showcase capability to suffer a lot. but it also has demonstrated a willingness to reach some sort of a compromise with israel training or many other contentious neighbors and partners

. i hope the west can also learn from bad news, only possibly know why they've outcome will be the people on the station. oh, okay. it only domain has already and i was not going to join, but they don't i think so. russia miscalculated is a competent, so if it's military forces and that will sector the phone, you know, it's more polco crane by then. no one said, you know, one more piece. it's ok. so maybe this won't be, they'll come in, they build a bug, met the washington. well, all the time. mean we have to leave it here. thank you very much for your insights . you're welcome and thank you for watching hope to see you again. next week on

will's apart. ah, so what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have. it's crazy confrontation, let it be an arms race group is on often very dramatic development. only personally and getting to resist. i don't see how that strategy will be successful, very critical time time to sit down and talk with

ah mm hm. mm. mm. are in a, one of the most generative and most destructive western concepts, giving rise to a conflict in your brain rekindling the

old disputes about right and wrong sides of history. still a chance from russia and the west meeting somewhere in the middle to discuss with them now and join by a president of the jerusalem institute for strategic studies. professor invites great to see you great to talk to you. thank you very much for time. my pleasure, you wrote recently about the seemingly existential political needs to be perceived as being on the right side of history. if we tried to put policy central baganda out of it and look at it from historical and perhaps psychological perspective, what do you need this righteousness? i don't believe in high psycho history, basically is the history is written by the victim of the walls and good narratives that remains is the future is the ones that is defined by

the victim. by the way, hitler was not really if you would have put more attention to the nuclear issue rather than non gauge massage that you might have been the victim. would it be the right side of this story? i thought that now the tensions between russia and the west, especially over ukraine, have been building for quite some time a couple of years. it's not decades. and yet when i interview western experts, they always point out that the russian actions in ukraine, however disagreeable they may be, are totally approval. they see this totally unprovoked, totally coming out of the blue. do you think that's a delivery? that's the station or is it a genuine blindness on that part that they somehow missed the last couple of years of the very tenuous relationship. it's been our size. i can understand for

security dilemma, somebody is a price to defend himself and accumulates both military power to defend itself at the same time it is said to its neighbor. so this type of situation, sally inevitably, i, i definitely understand, is there, russian, a desire for larger margins of security. a, we have to remember that nato expended is 12 closer to wash and both of those. and when it was promised to do the company knew what else at that time. so yeah, this will not happen. i am pretty sure that the nozzle doesn't have any offensive intentions. but there's the same time, it's really difficult to dismiss. that is the feels of russia and to have historic feel. so renovation funds are her funds

o. s. so this is precisely the problem of a security dilemma or in i'm you from here from western x prison. right. nathan doesn't harbor any listed as the intentions in russia, but, you know, looking at some of the recent actions by major members in libya or in syria, you know, they, maybe they were not intentional, but they have not the last. i mean, is it really so crucial to, you know, have these written as a statement of purpose that a tac rush rather than, you know, pursuing from the reality perspective and seeing what nature members have done militarily in recent history. i think i have been understanding obama. well, i mean, we slip in libya and silly i think by the license just you know,

not as it is a middle east. so a things that there, but i don't mean that as americans disagree and instead of sitting down and trying to divide, you know, divide zillow. this is, you know, part of this is my palm. and then tied to exist as it was doing the called the law. and i think that there is a understanding and so on how to run a foreign policy. they become too liberal. or i have illusions about what the international relations please. and as a result of the army misperceptions on both sides. now,

i think from your writing that you take the full of national interest rather than morality as the ultimate measure of any policy you wrote that and then we'll be hearing that no country is allowed to gamble on its very existence. and i think that's pretty clear and how israel conducts itself on the international stage. but if we look at the ration from that perspective in russia had the choice and then to act militarily with ukraine becoming increasingly militarized and increasingly hostile to russia. this will allow him to clarify, a country has no white, no model to commit suicide, n z l for a test to act upon its internal international. it's national interest. those choices, though, he's a choice to surrender or so. so i show, obviously as many choices and they chose to act mean it's a really, you know, the to defend its national interest in ukraine for

this was following the silliest little warning list. but so it was didn't, they could to and i'm not making any judgments any more judge. i can understand your behavior overstayed that once a month you kill it this way once a week. and then i would like to point out that it was to some extent was out caution when you leave next to a big bear like russia. you have to because that's all, i have a chuckle about russia, russia being there. i think we're a little bit more civilized than leaving that but you know, if that's the perception that i want to ask you about a,

was that the addition of using phones? not even that you cannot go. yeah, absolutely. and israel is also, and it's like being much smaller, it's also a country that takes it survival very seriously. and you are definitely not shy about striking targets on the country territory. and i think to some extent, israel's, of course, projection projection relies on its adversaries knowing that some sort of richer vision is inevitable. so i want to ask you whether you think that the drastic actions that she's now taking in ukraine is that there at least partially conditions on russia being has a tend to flip all as to your math. and for way too long. russia reacted earlier and more forcefully when the current prices have been avoided. doing things that the school could have been by yeah, by merely by united states paying attention to russian security concerns

a or so by the hugo lease? well 1st, so crenan leadership and not the understanding that there are certain anxious may go vocal russian sensitivities and death result though we have no, it will deny which is not the really nice thing. people lose the lives cities are destroyed. and but this, this spelt of wall now within the western camera, israel has a very interesting position because it tends to walk along side many western resolutions condemning rushes behavior. but it is also non dismissive of russia security concerns what the israel's game or the israel or rationale in this

company is a national honestly clue. no or no on hand. we are, you know, dependent as united states or what's, what's the cause of free will. and are we are going to want to be american care? on the other hand and not file form will i leave? am 0 sion, sammy's in celia. and though we reach an agreement to coordinate our military actions as a military action against iranian colony, which is something which is extremely important to his national security. and we want to make sure that this call the nation a continuous, which is dependent upon a russian goodwill in the national interest. and so we try to balance our no participation in what's called the western cam. it was

listed position is a v, n a which is a name and to have to take it into consideration. we are not acting idealistically. i think the general outlook over any phone policy is the date. and as a result of that, we are trying to balance those through interest, which is not going to the us. india is doing the same amount of companies are doing the same without the loan in what you call this game. but actually is a new book. and to have to take into calculation, it's national interest. and when we act, if you seen it, you mentioned russia presence in syria. and i think one out of country to mentioned here is turkey. and i think you would probably agree that in syria, russia was both, are accommodating,

it was respectful of both turkey's and israel's central security considerations. but it also could be power on some of the actions when, when they deemed them. so that allows me to conclude that the lease with israel and turnkey interior, russia has learned how to differentiate the various uses of power and or why didn't work the same way with your brain go. so i agree was there was a when they decided to intervene on a jeep into a situation and place a ceiling. a new claim for basic is always know is currently those sheep. and which is that, and i would say to not to rush in and, and imo, it was ideal for being part of the view. it has didn't play

a game. and as a result of that, and as i mentioned, this is one of these before. so we are witnessing now since i mentioned turkey, you know, that it's a very challenging partner for both russia and these are especially under prime minister and i'm at a prime minister. yeah, that's my mistake president. how could i forget that? but anyway, he's been po, wait till quite some time. is it really which way? here. he's in powerful way for quite some time and 2001. yes. and our countries have gone through the periods of acute crisis and very pragmatic relationship. and we managed to restore some sort of partnership after the very precarious incident back in 2015 when the church shut down

a series, which was taken in moscow as a staff in the back. and yet, it's worked towards restoring some sort of a pragmatic relationship. good serve as a model for, you know, future adversaries to that serve as a model for either russia and ukraine going forward, or perhaps rushing the way going forward. basically my knowledge and this is what we see developing is that is all again between the united states a and i am and there's a lot of times when i make i had a different leadership and a hey, i differently the blows the flag, the united states doesn't have it at this time. so defense international politics

understands politics and understands that sometimes you have to accommodate your lease because they have ran national interest and day in international relations. unless you are extremely strong, you can get the present in bar. we have to take a very short break right now. we will be back in just a few moments. h and a were okay. with

in with the mainstream narrative on ukraine get shaken out by the way, we can make any more refugees have been crossing into russia and heading west of the e. u. implemented states emergency plans and slash gas consumption by 15 percent to compensate for the energy crisis and all 3 and presidential candidate tells us he, but europe policy of the sanctions against russia. it's the plague that is, gets of frantic. and that is what currently characterized as the european, the lease gets with south africa won't be pushed around. that's the message.