ah, welcome back to will the park with and for president of the jerusalem institute for strategic studies. professor in bar on one of the proposed gold rush and military operation in ukraine. he's the so called to see cation and i have to say that when i 1st heard this term, it sounded very odd and artificial. i think it was the russians because a couple of weeks to even learn how to pronounce it without stumbling. having said that, do you think now the old fashion has ever been a problem in more than day ukraine? a modern day. remember who i did was that was the nazi, but i do, i do not know enough about the, you know,

the politics. so claim today to be able to respond to it. i must say, you know, this sentences sounds very strange toward the western ears and even here and it's the way we have, you know, allowed to population a. i think, you know, if i would have to advise mr. put in i, i would advise him to use a different sentence to justify his the now can i brought in this out towards the issue on now says because i think the address on, on to pillars of why mean i, you know, exceptional or secret nature of any given and the 2nd i think is the, this issue of the, of the end of history. that history has some pre determined more. and as we know,

people are, was trying to bring that about. is that a concept that is being reliable? not only, let's say in ukraine, but also more broadly movies that you consider most of the chosen people. so and nobody, you know, things that any of those and that's it. but you know, many nationality things out. and so this is a list. and again, i think that this choice of who owns it was not is the best one. you mentioned that the just consider themselves the chosen people that you're not trying to impose your way of life. and you're quite restrictive about who can join your, your people, rules for that. but when we look, let's say in the american constitution,

they not only define themselves as exceptional, but also see themselves as a the ultimate judge, almost the replacement of god. i wonder if this russian american rivalry over the years is partially spiritually based over whether one country can be the ultimate just what, what is good and what is evil in international affairs. i refrain from making normative judgments, but the only church believes that and it has a direct line to, to gun and a christian it though. so america it, which is actually becoming less and less. so it's not the different form of i will know when that what they listen. i'm not the specialist was also the

church in russia, but they believes that is that a viable in? no, it's all in design. you know, it's coming back. absolutely. but i think a self conscious nation wants to build its own, you know, have only jerusalem of that for sure. but i think very few nations, in fact, only one nation please that you know, this is the one the only have only jerusalem. you know that. and the russian also allows for the multiplicity of gardens. the question is whether the americans are ready to leave, even after these are you printing crisis, whether they are ready to accept that they can be a multiplicity of developmental pass in the world. and that not everything, and not everybody will play tune i would agree, is it so? is it missionary staying in american foreign policy?

and this is why we have those complaints for democracy. and the campaigns for human rights, which actually blue is very low national interest though of the united states. and this is part of america and 0, some positive sinks about it though some negative things about it. but this is towards that. so is a mesh mission of israel, sometimes in american foreign policy, and which is not prismatic. when you displace too much of this type of desire will be moral and imposed. it's morality on the hello. now in one of your articles, he pointed out that you korean experience being last one on one as you put in ruth, less russian neighbor. what will reinforce israel's belief

in self protection doctrine that in the times of crisis, you can only rely on yourself even if you nominally have very, very strong ally. do you think israel will be the only country to draw a lesson or do you think they will be more conscious that now? so relying on hooley, on, on the power of american to turns. i think we see in the middle east to clear with development in that direction because americans are signaling or the so we have ministration obama come and does a by nurse questions that they don't want to be as i may please. they want to retreat and to focus on the chinese challenge. and as a result of that, her as outgoing feels particularly among though. so that boy will do seen countries said so willingly man without a shield against the hon. no,

why don't i do so. and as a result of that, of course we see the alignment was excellent and but is well definitely has the self reliance. milton. from the very beginning, this is also a jewish experience. and i am at a disdainful, says a, you know, zone i, investor guarantees on up the world much. and her, i think, same king has made a mistake, hoping that the westwood intervene on our behalf. and despite goes ahead, said the worst case providing to claim. but no single american soldier cost the same crumbled. can i also ask you about your because your, after very long pass, this is spell and now seems to be more willing to invest into its own designs. perhaps even a sense. and that is very visible in germany, germany very dramatically rose and some expenditures. is that something

a natural to be expected? or is it something to be well worried about, in historical hindsight, a made a mistake of the end of the call believing that they are going into a paradise. and those are national security problems, so will be sort of after the defeat of the soviet union. so i'll go home and this is a awakening. pull you up. i'm not sure how don't get to a less, and maybe it will fail, you know, the dilemma between the guns. i failed to be, but those are those in use, the money for guns. but this remains to be seen, but clearly. so there's a change of ethical within, you know, in many or countries in on is

a show for national defense. i guess it's my final question a, you mentioned this choice in butter and guns. and clearly there is also an economic damage that's coming to all sides from a very harsh sanctions introduced by europe and the united states. you mentioned before that your ultimate test for foreign policy is how well it serves national interest. based on that, do you think the policy of sanctions is good enough for the europeans because it seems to be hurting not only the russians only the europeans, but also much of the much they will, that has absolutely nothing to do with you know, a, all the arguments in russian, the way we're really economic sanctions, we're really successful. and oh, america i sanctions against iraq against cuba for many years and didn't change

behavior of the country. so i need to suffer and to pay heavy price for continue was our policy a i don't really much is for as a sanctions, fuller, and change a calculus. so fashion leadership and of course the committee will be seen. we shouldn't forget that as a sanctioned host. those, those, the, with the you up in particular is dependent on russian energy and russian weight. so it is, so, you know, in every world we have 2 equations. one can cause more damage, but or so, and i don't equation it was the countries that can take a most definitely you know, for looking at history, i think her russia is displayed their willingness to

cost full well what it believes. it's too well. i agree with you, but i also think that russia definitely has showcase capability to suffer a lot. but it also has demonstrated a willingness to reach some sort of a compromise with israel. tricky or many other contentious neighbors and partners. i hope the west can also learn from bad news, only possibly know why they've outcome will be the people on the station. oh, okay. is there a way that he's not going to join, but they don't think so. russia miscalculated is a competent. so if it's military forces and that will set to the phone, you know, it's more about go crane by then no one said, you know, one more piece. it's ok. so maybe this will be, they'll come in maybe, you know,

like, you know, washington well, of the time. mean we have to leave it here. thank you very much for your insights. you're welcome. thank you for watching hope to see you again next week on will's apart with. mm. what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have. it's crazy even foundation, let it be an arms race is often very dramatic. a development only, really, i'm going to resist. i don't see how that strategy will be successful,

very difficult time to sit down and talk only one main thing is important, not to some internationally speaking to that is that nations that's allowed to do anything, all the mazda races, the reason us had gemini, is so dangerous, is it the law, the sovereignty of all the country wars business and business is good, and that is the reality of what we're facing, which is fashion. with with

along the welcome to was a history gravitating to some more has to be in the one of the most generative and most destructive western concepts even rise to reach jeremy j. m dash is both marxism and liberalism. with a conflict in your brain rekindling the all disputes about the right them, the wrong sides of history. still a chance for russia and the web meet somewhere in the middle to discuss it. i'm now joined by a friend in bar president of the jerusalem institute for strategic studies. it's great to see great to talk to you. thank you very much for your time. my pleasure. you wrote recently about the seemingly existential political need to be perceived as being on the right side of history. if we tried to put politics and began to out

of it and look at it from historical and perhaps psychological perspective, what time do you need this righteousness? i don't believe it right side of history basically is the history is written by the victim of the walls. and the narrative that remains is a few. jo is the ones that is defined by the victim. by the way, it was not far from victory. if you would have put more attention to the nuclear issue rather than longer, besides that, you might have been the victim. would it be the right side of his story? i doubt that. now the tension between russia and the west, especially over ukraine, have been building for quite some time a couple of years, no decades. and yet when i interview western i asked for, is they always point out that the russian actions in ukraine,

however disagreeable they may be, are totally approval. this totally, i'm kind of all totally coming out of the blue. do you think that's a delivery? that's the station, or is it a genuine blindness on that part that they somehow missed the last couple of years of the very 10 years relationship? it's been our size. i can understand the same security dilemma. somebody that tries to defend himself and accumulates both military power to defend itself. at the same time, the po jake is said to its name. so this type of situation, saline, i mean i, i definitely understand the russian a desire for larger mileage is the security. a, we have to remember that nato expended is 12 closer to wash and bo those it, when it was promised to do the kremlin new us at that time to

do this will not happen. i, i'm pretty sure that the nato doesn't hobble any offensive intentions, but at the same time, it's really difficult to dismiss that is a, feels over russia and to have historic feel. so renovation from the, from the west. so this is precisely the problem of a security dilemma or in borough we often hear from what's next person. right. nathan doesn't harbor any explicit intentions. no, russia but, you know, looking at some of the recent actions by major members in libby or in syria, you know, they, maybe they were not intentional, but they have not the last. i mean, is it really so crucial to, you know,

have these written as a statement of purpose a once you attack russia, rather than, you know, we're seeing from the reality perspective and seeing what nature members have done militarily in recent history. i think and understanding was obama and well, i mean, we slipped in libya and silly i think by the law says, justly or not. it is a middle east. so a things that they're like doing toby, as americans disagree and instead of sitting down and trying to divide you know, divide zillow. this is a. * this is my problem and then tied to exist as it was doing the called the law. and i think that there is

a understanding in the list on how to run foreign policy. they become too liberal or have illusions about what the international relations please. and this result of that for me, mr. sections on both. now i think it from your writing that you take the full cell of national interest rather than morality as the ultimate measure of any policy you wrote that and then we'll be hearing that no country is allowed to gamble on its very existence. and i think that's pretty clear and how israel conducts itself on the international stage. but if we look at the ration from that perspective, dean, russia had the choice and then to act militarily with ukraine becoming increasingly militarized and increasingly hostile to russia. the civil, i want to clarify

a country has no white, no model to commit suicide. and so for a test to act upon its internet international, it's national interest. there are choices. there is a choice to surrender or so. so i show, obviously as many choices and they chose to act mean don't really, you know, the to defend its national interest in ukraine. and her, this was following the silliest little warnings to the west, but say it was didn't take it seriously. and i'm not making any judgments any more judge. i can understand your behavior over states that once we have a large amount of security, it's way once larger amount of security. and then i would like to point out that korean was to some extent, i was out caution when you leave next to

a big bear like russia you have to because that's so i have a chuckle about russian russia being there. i think we're a little bit more civilized than leaving that but you know, in that the perception, so be i want to ask you about a country where is that the addition of using full? now if you can obviously go, yeah, absolutely. and israel is also is by being much smaller, it's also a country that takes in survival very seriously. and you are definitely not shy about striking targets on the country territory. and i think to some extent, israel, of course, projection projection relies on its adversaries knowing that some sort of retribution is inevitable. so i want to ask you whether you think that the drastic

actions that she's now taking in ukraine is that there at least partially conditions on russia being has a tend to flip all as to your math and for way too long. have russia reacted earlier and more forcefully when the current prices have been avoided? doing things it could have been by. i'm ellia by saying that the state paying attention to russian security concerns. oh, so by the cube lease, well 1st, so crane in leadership and not the understanding that there are certain anxious may go vocal russian sensitivities. and as a result, though, we have no, it will deny which is not the really nice thing. people lose their lives. cities i will destroy,

but this is this spelt of wall. now within the western capital has a very interesting position because it tends to well along side many western resolutions condemning rushes behavior. but it is also not dismissive of russia security concerns what the israel's game or the israel or ration now in this conflict is less than honest, really clear own on hand. we also know dependent upon the united states or what's, what's the cause of free will. and there we are, i want to be american care was out of hand and not file form. well, i leave, am zillow sion, stop me in celia. and though we reach an agreement to coordinate to our military actions, there was a very mr. action against the radiant on it,

which is something which is extremely important to his national security. and we want to make sure that this quality nation and continuous, which is dependent upon a russian good will in the national interest a. so we try to balance our no participation in, in what schools are western cam. it was say, realistic position is a v, n, a neighbor which is a neighbor and to have to take it into consideration without not acting idealistically. i think the general now to cove is lady fawn policies and quality. and as a result of that, we are trying to balance those through interest which is not going to the us. india is doing the same amount of countries. so doing the same without the loan in what

you call this game and you both and to have to take into corporation. it's national interest. and when we did it, you mentioned russia presence in syria, and i think one out of country to mention here is turkey. and i think you would probably agree that in syria, russia was both firm and accommodating. it was respectful of both turkeys and israel's central security considerations, but it also could be power on some of the actions when, when it deemed in them. so that allows me to conclude that at least with israel and turkey interior, russia has learned how to differentiate between the, the various uses of power and why didn't work the same way with your brain of i agree was there was a when they decided to intervene on

a jeep into a situation is wally and play a. a new claim for basic is always know it currently those sheep. and which is that and i would say to not the russian and namo it was ideal for being part of the view. it has didn't play a game. and as a result of that, and as i mentioned, this is one of these before. so we are witnessing now since i mentioned turkey, you know, that they said very challenging partners for both russia. and these are especially under prime minister, and i'm at a prime minister. yeah, that's my mistake president. how could i forget that?

but anyway, he's been a really, was with here. he's in powerful way for quite some time. and 2001. yes. and our countries have gone through the periods of acute crisis and very pragmatic relationship. and we managed to restore some sort of partnership option, the very precarious incident back in 2015 when the church shut down a series, which was taken in moscow as a, as a staff in the back. and yeah, it's worked towards restoring some sort of a pragmatic relationship. good serve as a model for, you know, future adversaries to that serve as a model for either russia and ukraine going forward, or perhaps russia and the way going forward. basically my knowledge and this is what we see developing is that is all again

between the united states and its allies and the, and i am and does a lot of times when i make i had a different leadership. and as the 2 countries gone, you know, doing the key since they, i differently the blows the flag says, united states doesn't have it. kissinger at this times it understands international politics, understands politics and understands that sometimes you have to accommodate your lease because they have ran national interest and day in international relations. unless you are extremely strong, you can get everything present in bar. we have to take a very short break right now. we will be back in just a few moments station. mm. mm

hm. ah, need to come to the russian state. total narrative. i've side as i'm phone and the nurse landscape div, asking him the american house house that i'm at for a week within the 55 we did. okay, so mine is 2000 speedy, one else quoted with we will ban in the european union. the kremlin media machine, the state aunt, rush up to date and split r t spoke neck. even our video agency, roughly all band to on you to send me to school with. what did you think it requests with

me? ah, north atlantic alliance, reconnaissance aircraft wolf ships cruising close to russia's borders, have become commonplace. along with military hardware re deployment and large scale exercises, nato has also developed its offensive capability near the russian borders. ah ah, every year a russian backed resolution is submitted.