arms race is often very dramatic development only personally, i'm going to resist. i don't see how that strategy will be successfully, very critical time. time to sit down and talk with welcome to worlds apart. it's hard to find them more discouraged in tempting subjects for learning conversation than the existence of they can send them, like the forbidden fruit. it calls on us from the great works of art and the most mundane occurrences of our daily life. but to the rational mind, the thought of

a higher power came to the original sin, which comes with the donation of being expelled from the eden of scientific method . but art science with a capital and the divine indeed so incompatible to discuss it. i am now joined by lisa miller, professor of psychology and education at columbia university. and also they awakened brain, the psychology of spirituality and our search for meaning. we say it's great to talk to you. thank you very much for your time and i'm delighted to be here in particular in conversation with you. i am one of your fans. well, i, well, i'm still in the process of relishing in your new book. i think it's main takeaway becomes pretty avid then some different pages. you're arguing that spirituality is a hard wired capacity in every human being. whether we believe in it or not,

it is there and it shows up on the m r i scans, it shows up in behavioral patterns. are you essentially saying that they're working on the soul, the workings of a spirit of biologically detectable in the human body? precisely, so every single one of us on day one is born and innately spiritual being. and we know that in science through the lens of the twin study, we look at twins, raised together twins, raised apart, and factor out the degree of commonality as a function of shared g and shared environment. so for instance, our temperament, whether we're outgoing or introverted, whether we're high, strong or laid back, is half hard wired. in 8 half environmental. the capacity through which we experienced transcendence is one 3rd, and nate is in our genes, day one, but 2 thirds environmentally formed, which means that our parents, our community in school, if we are religious, our pastor preached. and mon rabbi,

all way into shape that what is the relationship between spirituality and religion about well in addition to overlapping circles, s spirituality and our religion, where they intersect, about 2 thirds of people will say, i am spiritual and i am religious. my felt sense of transcendence is held in the prayers, the meditations, the text, the ceremonies of my religious tradition, about 30 percent of people and more as we look younger to gen c will say i am spiritual, but i'm not religious for me, spirituality is experienced in nature with my family in music or art, whether or not we are religious. every single one of us is a spiritual being. you mentioned that diagram of overlap and circles, and i think it applies to you as well, your spiritual person, but you're also clinical scientists. and i know that in your lab and be you're

actually studying how, you know, the measurable, the quantifiable effects of spirituality on people of various religious traditions an outside them. is there anything in common that sort of gives a way this we can break regardless of what is carrier happens to believe in, on the cognitive level? so when we look to m. r i studies, we see that there is one spiritual brain what we're kind the awakened brain across all people, all cultures, all races. i left the cities are religious traditions and none at all. we know this because when we look through the m r i, and in particular the functional m r i that tracks blood flow, the movie camera, looking at how our brain is working. we see that no matter what someone's tradition may be or what they might look like on the outside, the same, nor correlates to run during transcendent experience. we did this in a very precise, very controlled way that we published our 1st article, cerebral cortex of oxford university press about 34 years ago. and what we saw was

that there were 4 dimensions to the spiritually where brain, the 1st and only one is shared with many forms of quiet in the mind. mind from this meditation simply stopping the racket. and this is the disengagement of the default network. but once we're at the threshold of presence, 3 very unique, profound dimensions run and the spiritually aware brand. as we awaken. and the 1st is that we feel held just as we were held, as children and our parents arms. the bonding network is engaged and we don't just believe we see and perceive that life itself, the spirit in, through daily life, god, whatever one's word may be the universe whole class. this next unique loop is that just as you are sitting with t p. s. coordinates right there, and so am i. am we each have our own unique bio bodies suits of our race and our

gender and orientation. we are magnificently diverse if you will. we are a point. but yet we are also a way, there's one deeper common sense of a human family. what might be called the consciousness fail, beloved informational consciousness filled. finally, the last dimension, very important to the creative process, creativity and art, pretty innovation and science and tech. and yes, most importantly, the innovation in our own personal lives is that we move from a top down narrow dorsal attention network. we've got to get the answer. i've technically prepared. but after all, my work that door that i plan to go through that call the red door is stuck all the strategizing in the world, all the training in the world. well in these moments where the planning and the control that we wish to issue and like simply doesn't hold, we've realized that life is actually only a very thin layer. what you might call the i state of control on

a deep pound cake of flux. the dynamism, the flexing, like 2 years of code, you can't control life so much of the time. we can release the top down, controlling dorsal for the bottom of ben troll attention system. and in a state of spiritual awareness, we have far more information. and many people say ex santa that the right answer cops. and suddenly, after years of coin at the red door, the yellow door swings wide open. in your book, you make it, make it clear that this perception is reality of physical reality. in all these filling space and translate into thicker frontal cortex, this kind of rain gives off different wavelengths and as far as understanding it also comes with higher executive functioning. that is a different quality of cognition, different quality of memory, speech will power, physical resilience. and as far as i understand, even

a different kind of gene expression, isn't that too good to be true because it sounds like an elixir of you've looking at here or perhaps an elixir of life? well, because instead of being told, hey, drink this is we're drawing on something that is actually our birthright. it is in our genes, it is in the design of our brain. we are actually re igniting how we are built. a very important finding in the science is that when we face very painful moments, we are engaging a form of suffering. that is actually an opportunity. it is a knock at the door to look more deeply to meditate, to bear witness to nature, to read a lifting text to pray. whatever one's form of transcendence may be asked of this loving, guiding force. ask of the universe ask of the spirit in life. what are you showing

me now? what is it? life, spirit, and life that you show me now? these moments of deep dark despair can be a breakthrough to elimination. when we look at our m, r, i studies that people who have suffered, they are prone to suffer in their parents suffer. their life has heavy burden. and through the suffering they dig deeply, they reflect and they have a breakthrough of connection, spiritual connection. we find that their brains for having woken up for awakening start to change, and in particular, how do they start to change their is critical thickness. the cortex is processing power in regions of the primal, pre kuni, s, and accept little regions of perception, reflection and orientation. and what's even more important for us to know is that as the brain goes thick, like a tree in these areas of perceiving, we become narrow, protected, that brain structure,

that enhanced region of critical thickness guards us against a subsequent deep depression. spirituality is neuro protective against recurrence of major depression. now let, oh i, i know what you're talking about from a personal experience, even though they can go, i would say that you're just imagining things and, and to make yourself feel better. but even if that were the case, even be enormous positive effects that perhaps that i'm to see is, was being entertained. but at this point in my life, i am absolutely sure that this is an actual objective reality. but to access that reality, as you point out in the book, people need to have this sense of being loss of being how of being guided of being supported or being companion. and

so many people are around us. that's the hardest challenge of all. this is jan sense of self worth and south last your own meaning. your own right to exist the way you are. i wonder how would you recommend those arise who haven't experienced that in childhood from our families. how would you suggest the access dat key that indeed unlocks any door? there are 2 ways that science shows absolutely re awaken our natural birthright. and the 1st is the cultivation of this transcendent awareness that sees into the spiritual reality. doesn't believe doesn't hope, doesn't think that it can perceive the relationship between events, synchronicity who we are to one another. and the 2nd piece is it's,

it's beautifully shown in our most recent m, r i studies, is that the same part of the brain that perceives that we are loved held and guided by the spirit in life by god is the same. a part of the brain that perceives the presence of god, the presence of spirit in one another. so if we are stuck, and if we simply can't see and feel that sensitive love that holds us and feel, what is my next moved? where is the guidance right? we can show up for one another in our bio body suits, embodied and act on to one another in a way that is loving and holding and guiding. and russians are great at this, you're wonderful at this. you know, she's loving and holding and guiding, and sharing of guidance and sharing of the heart. and what should awaken will both a human love, but it actually catapults transcendent, love, transcendent love that we share for one another. and as the brain gets home in the

ability again to access the spirit of life, well, we have to take a short break right now, but we will get back in just a few moments since you ah, a in a sean

and welcome back and forth with listen, miller, professor of psychology and education at columbia university, and also the weight can brain the psychology of spirituality and our search for many. we said before the break, we were talking about the difference between spirituality and religion, organized religion and has been more than a 100 years since friedrich nietzsche proclaimed that god. is that implying demise of organized religion? and i think the need for establishing building a spiritual temples within our own souls. but as he's own biography shows that could be very challenging. even though we all have the spiritual instinct,

even though we all have the sort of the biological infrastructure for a connection to personal connection with the divine, can everyone do it on his or her own without the help of my religious community, all without a let's say a family, every single one of us has been damage of the spiritual brain and i travel the world. people will say one of 2 things very often. either say i am a deeply spiritual person and i know that no matter what science says, where they will say and very scientific, i believe what can be shown spirituality, that is all we will write. well, it turns out that science and spirituality can go hand in hand. and in fact, the lack of scientific exploration in the 20th century had nothing to do with the scientific method. we can take our lens of science, whether it's a telescope,

a microscope, and m r. i study gina type in study and point are lens at a great host of questions including of course, the impact of spirituality and the human life. the origins of spirituality as we grow and develop across the human life. and once the scientist asked those questions of the impact of spirituality in the human life, the findings were so strong, so bright, they were almost blind and it was extraordinary. and let me share with you. for instance, as we crossed the bridge into adulthood 1718. 1920. there is a burgeoning mark, 50 percent increase in the heritable contribution to a native spirituality, a serge, the inside out of biological clock. and we start to say, what is my meaning, what is my purpose? actually? what is the meaning in life itself? and with nagging in the existential questions at the head, comes in equal hunger of the heart to connect to feel illumination. well,

this process comes on line whether or not we support the young adult. but when we do, he or she forms what we might call the spiritual core. they literally have the highways mileage, the tracks between regions of the brand that teen who says, yes, my personal spirituality is highly important to me. is 80 percent decreased risk for addiction to drugs and alcohol using the diagnostic criteria on the science from our lab labs. this published in talk journals that was in the american academy of child and adolescent psychiatry. the brain study was in jam, a psychiatry. this is all peer review science. well, it's not doctor know all these peer reviewed evidence. i think the predominant view is still that if it's not overwhelmingly 100 percent measurable done somehow, it's not scientific and i come to this as

a former harden atheist. and i think now i sort of understand atheism as a form of a psychological defense. and i think it may even, you know, serve its purpose against the, you know, the enormity and predictability of the country. i think it really functions like that in some people, but this predominant mainstream view that this is something, you know, this is something on the outskirts of human consciousness. this is something that is not broadly discussed in schools and universities even around a family tables. unless you happen to be a raised in faithful family. don't you think that something like this may ultimately harm the psyche and alien, a people from themselves and from the, you know, very strong source of liveliness, functionality, imagination, creativity and meaning. so science is very clear, this is not my opinion,

and it's not only the findings of one lab, but now many, many labs around the world have shown that when we develop our natural spirituality, remember 2 thirds cultivated it's a choice. whether it's through how we treat one another prayer meditation, read in transcendent text. when we build our spiritual awareness, we are less addicted and less depressed. and we are more innovative for more creative. whether that's creativity in our work or with our very important precious lives. but this is the hub of the way the brain functions in many respects. it's the super ordinate from which all other lines of moral and social perception are formed. so life simply looks different when we look through the spiritually aware brain. we're absolutely far more able to bounce back from difficulty and different are seen as invitations to move away from the stock red doors in our lives. open

our eyes and say what life, what spirit guides are you showing me now? and in this drama, we are all central characters. it's not just for the few, and we show up for each other in a way that is loving, holding and guiding as well. this is completely within our birthright. in fact, we function better. i think looking at the preponderance of the evidence, i conclude that we are made whole and as we are designed to be, when we strengthen the spiritual core and bring that into all of our life. now speaking about functioning as i was reading here. one thing that struck me was that the positive effects of having an active genuine direct relationship dialogue with live for the positive effects of it is very similar to the names on the sympathetic nervous system. because it also is associated with, you know, physical and cognitive functionality and imagination,

height and sense of camaraderie, readiness to sacrifice, one's life for others. but it also carries huge negative effects. and i think it's very interesting that during the 2nd world war, a number of our mr. japanese army, the german nasa army tried to use met and sediments within their soldiers to boost the morale. do you think that was in a way as sort of an attempt to hijack the divine qualities? i would do one capacity of the human body, the human mind for political and geo political purposes and look what to turn into well, so we can jumpstart the system. momentarily right, and we can also jumpstart the system with our eyes anti depressant drugs. but when you take away the chemicals, we go back to where we were before or worse. so it's not an authentic spiritual awakening. and in fact, i'll share with you that i, as i told you,

our lab found that as we recover from depression through a deepening of spiritual life, there is a thickening in the cortex of the products that are pretty yes, we are neuro protected. well, it's also the case that when we asked those very same people who recovered from depression through strengthening the spiritual heart we put on e g, a little e g cap, which looks at how the brain is. he is how we give off wavelengths, and it turns out that following a spiritual deepening, we get off high amplitude alpha privately out the back, right? where many traditions cover their head. what is so interesting about that is that, that wave length high amplitude alpha is also given off by people who do not recover through a deepening of spiritual life, but who momentarily jumpstart the system. with prozac assess our eyes, take away the ss, our eyes, it's gone. right? but the wave length is there, showing that they force the system. that's

a very short term solution. it's not integrated into all life. and it doesn't have the same capacity to connected to the reality of the consciousness field. and in fact, when we looked at high amplitude alpha, this wave length, we looked through all forms of science, chemistry, physics. where do we see high amplitude alpha? it turns out that it is humans resonance humans. resonance is the wave length from the earth crossed up one mile. air. beautiful earth are living. earth vibrates the wavelength of high amplitude alpha. so spiritually engaged, brain re boots, reconnects, and becomes part of life itself. well, and that leads me to, well, a kind of personal question because you're sure in the book your own struggle with fertility, which culminated in your adoption of a rush to get the best for you guys to hear from us. and i think, you know,

what i to from that story is that for from both your example in the example of many people i know in many of the examples in there real religion, religious traditions of the world is that this sort of spiritual connection, read orders and the way emotions and links function in the human being and the way he or she relates to the other people or the environment in general. this is what you were talking about. and i'm sure you experience last before your brain became awakened. but i wonder from a personal experience, how did it change and wasn't this sort of a conscious change, or did it simply happen to you? whereas i went to a very difficult depression over 5 years, and i share this and the awakened brain with the brain. i talk about the many who came thank you. the many people who came to our help there sort of, if you will,

trail angels of the journey. and what i slowly slowly started to do was winnow away the ego that, you know, said i've got to make this happen. it's just like i build a career, i want to build a family. and instead started to realize that we are really built less to be makers of our past, and far more to be discovers of our journey. and when we can say, what is life showing me now? how of all people on earth did i have the opportunity to speak? talk out right now. how of all people on earth did this healer, this doctor, this wise teacher come now into my life? right? when we can say, why now, and what is the message? life is alive, it's not an inert stage on which we direct our show. it is a living, breathing universe in which we are a part where as i came to see that i dropped the idea that i had to get pregnant. i had to, you know, stop going from fertility doctor,

to fertility doctor. and we were so hooked on control that i went through for fertility doctors and i found the person who invented in vitro fertilization. and yet i knew that in my power, i was in the wrong space. and as i listened to the people around me, we found our way to who i see is the most beautiful child in the world. beautiful to this day. he's now 21. and he is russian in his soul and his beautiful heart and his wisdom. and he is of course, a child of the universe. and so this is my beautiful boy. and i describe in the book i found him because i started listening to the helpers and healers along the way. well is i guess i have time for one last question and as we know from mystical and religious literature, everybody perception of god is very individual, very different. some people have an apostle, paul, like awakening. when they, they see visions, others hear it in that had somebody feels it in the

body. you know, there are many different ways of establishing that connection with the divine and i think they, it also differs in terms of do some people feel very strongly for others. it's more mediated by the religious organization or violence in music or ours. what does it depend on? how do we establish this connection with god? is an individual for everybody or other, perhaps some tendencies? well, we all, every one of us has an innate neuro seed of transcendent awareness. we're all built to perceive god or higher power. there's natural variance in any genetically endowed trade, whether it's hard capacity to create music or ability to do math. there's variance and some of us may hear it more intensely than others, but that doesn't mean that on this end of the bell curve,

they are in spiritual they are. they hear it in a different way, different volume. and not only does the intensity vary, but it also comes in on different channels. some people can truly in their minds. i see the presence of the spirit of a deeply sacred being. whereas other people feel it can aesthetically in their heart or in their god. but when whatever channel it comes in on is probably the dominant channel and that person's composition, their way of being much as we have inborn differences in personality. so yes, we're all naturally spiritual, but there's different intensities and there's different channels on which it comes in. while it starts to express what a joy has been talking to, and by the way, i read somewhere from thinkers the and that jenny enjoy. life is also one of the markers of the awakened brain. but it's been a pleasure for me talking to you. thank you very much for that. thank you for sharing the awakened brain. it's such

a joy to bring it to russia. i love you. well, thank you for watching hope is here again next week on wednesday. i i ah ah

ah, with shakes i was showing a little who is using it for me or should i use the moon center? sure, lots of them will with the so please. so mr. ashley with this lisa snell property in putting me.