you go to school calls, i don't know who sees the go for the don't know as much to do with ah hello and welcome to cross all things considered on people about since the started russian special military operation and you crank it up and not declares it must be independent of russian energy. well, at the same time, terrified moscow might terminate supplies altogether at any time. but he e. u energy policy is an ideological struggle.

ah, discuss these issues and more. i'm joined by my guess, george samuel in budapest. he's a pastor in the god which will be found on you to the locals. and here in moscow we have to meet bob and she's a political analyst and editor. and you know me, internet media or i generally crossed out rules and back. that means you can jump in the time you want, and i would appreciate it when i start out with george in budapest, georgia. very simple question. does the you have a coherent energy policy because it seems like, you know, i don't want to use a heat metaphor, but i, well there their hair is on fire talking about how to deal with energy during the summer. in the upcoming winter. they want to cut so dependence on russia, but they're terrified as i said in my introduction that it can be shut off. i mean,

what is it? go ahead. that's exactly right. and so we have on the one hand lion, the e u, a president of the commission, who said we are going to cut us off completely from russian fossil fuels and we will never be dependent on them again. and then the next day, she turns around and uses russia, although withholding energy supplies, you know, holding back gas, you know, and they, using gas is a political weapon. so, you awesome, well, do you want russian gas or don't you want russian? yes, you can get a straight answer. i mean, depends on what time of day you ask the question and this is really low point. and they have been using russia for months and months of using gas as a weapon. when the only people will be using energy as a weapon, as in the, you know, i mean the, you know what they say by russian colon bose. then they say we're not going to have

any russian oil info starting in december. and then they close down the stream to before it even started a grain closing off one of its a due transport, russia, gas, europe. and then we have the, you know, the, the sanctions coming from canada when a compressor that was needed repairing was sent to siemens and germany. germany sent it to canada, canada, no, we're not returning it because it's sanctioned, as of all the issues being driven from the western end of the propaganda is the somehow in russia is using energy as a weapon. when, when did that happen? well, a demon, i mean, the real political weapon here has been sanctions. the only thing that's really changed with russian energy policy, b, b, europe, is that the russians that like us, they started charging in roubles,

which it makes perfect sense because of the sanctions and the, and then those swift system, russia being shut out. i mean, if they continue paying in dollars or euro's it would just be froze, it encompass dated. so i mean, that's the only significant change. and we all of the upper over north stream one. well it's, it's back in business. ok. most of the gas is flowing again. i mean, it doesn't really make any sense to me what they want to do, and there is no unity in the european union. so what is russia supposed to do? these are the, the, the, you have to deal with independent in the, in the, in the individual members of the you because the, you, as a whole, has no coherent policy. what say you the mom? well, i think sometimes you just plays all the stuff on just a very often they just use this phrase. butcher is using a gas as

a wiper. they don't even have the political. so people have these, oh, terrible images. oh wow. so, you know, this is a terrible pres, due to say, in your, you know, so these people, i don't, even in the way the express does not. but you are right about the what i would collective incentives. the problem with you is that the mattress is a lot less ration than every member they need to get you. i mean, all the most tragic, more playful. just you don't. so the you were taken collective. i mean, the situation with russia is just the latest example, the experts in germany, for example, at the end of the conference. you know, he says basically like a is always 100 percent dependent on russian guess. bulgaria is almost

100 percent event. this is india, it's dungeon. so even if germany thinks that it can provide for itself who is thinking about go get back at the 2nd. the 2nd such example is syria. i'm in the and that's remember all the events develop. what key there were disturbances brought us in syria and into ever so instead all you to stay in your role or how been off that vision for find some need or their own solution. you can left to really support the position and we know the result. you know, the civil war, the gears. so all of them most painful you can you connect if you know i'm terrified voice. there's no collective though there's no solidarity here. george is in the country right now in hungry. they basically will,

i won't say it on this program bit. they went their own way. it was put it that way . george. yeah, no, that's right. you back last week a foreign minister b. c, i o flew to moscow breaking ranks with the rest of the you and signed the agreement with russia for 700000000 metric tons of natural gas. it is a hungry needs, a gas as a well, we're not sharing any of those gas with anyone. with a day off, the european commission issued this new dig that of demanding the all you member states reduce the gas consumption by 15 percent. and then that would be a protest from a number of states including spain and portugal,

and greece saying, well, why should we come back when our gas use? this is a german problem. it is very much a boss of the way the germans do this. i mean, the germans make these big decisions and then they force everyone else to live with . this is, i mean, casing point is of course the, the decision of i'm going to model 2015 to start bringing in immigrants into europe, which everyone else was on the under of an obligation to say, well, have a peculiar understanding of solidarity. don't they have it? we do it. everybody else that voluntarily. yes. that yeah, exactly. and in fact, it was germany that has been very dependent on russian. yes. and then he was germany that made these extraordinary decisions like canceling the stream too. at the very last moment. and so, and this is why the europeans allow, say, you know,

a well, where was germany when we needed them out of the 2008 crisis, and we need a bailout, and suddenly the germans say, wow, sorry, we don't have the money to bail anyone out so now we will the europeans are supposed to. ready bail germany as well, and also we had, over the last few days, we had threatening to shut a pipeline that was supplying europe that you know, that they've been agreed to. and so, you know, again, this adds to the quandary here. i mean, russia threatened to cut energy, but it's ukraine. that is reckoning the cut off russian energy customers in europe . so i mean, went, where's the, where's the anger towards the ukrainians for threatening europe, energy security go ahead. doesn't make any sense. well, it makes sense, but logically, there you go. that's made,

but it may sound well for me, i'm sorry. it was. what was the war? just all the states opposing north jim bon, enrolled student to me. they said that these rush and get has to go. great. so do you grain or get rochester at all? you know, we are wanting to continue to supply your brain, but that just makes sense to me. now that you can so i guess no, no, no, no way to deal with. now that there is basically this terrible confrontation within russia and ukraine. your brain is charging some of these. i stay in the line what they call the occupied. so i mean, rush to gain weight. even though it was the united states and it was the you that

said the usual all rely but you bring bolts to do. is this dim explained to our audience, what does the united states happen to be in energy? can you like me? why did they put poking their beak into something that is so important? we're not talking about, you know, the size of our because we're talking about people going to be warm in the winter. you're absolutely right. you know, and, you know, with this russian drummond pipeline, i mean what we'll do, i'd say that with a pool is a pipeline from canada, united states. but we in fact, go by doing this for us. brilliant. you know, he created all the programs in american had to do supplies, but we never even thought about raising any questions about pipelines between mexico and canada. united states being the right to, you know,

to pronounce judgment. one rus russell government project to impose sanctions. all the companies participate in it. and before that donated states and walked against south sky, which was basically aimed air supply and gas to read and agreed to do well. in fact, part of the problem, the reason why i read had this crisis is going to be a voice. if they had the rough guess what? it would be. so, but it was the you, the, your commission and great a stand tonight states that basically did everything but be solid in project. never ignore me doors. but i guess my question was whether rhetorical in the united states have to do with your energy security? well, it's all about money, they want them to buy american energy. when you know is being fossil fuels are being attacked in the us. so there's only one outcome here, a higher. right?

so the europeans, but get up and cheat russian energy and paper very expensive. gulf in america. wow, that's a brilliant move business. go ahead. it is, of course, it makes the europeans very uncompetitive. i mean, you're already has problems with keeping up with east asia. but now the one thing that they had which was very reliable source of energy promotion. now they've given that out and they've done it on the american pressure. the ukraine has come under american pressure with the americans who press the ukraine. membership into native americans continue to provoke and to provoke. and basically if you're busy just a little hard breaking up on some real estate market, ah ah,

[000:00:00;00] with a spoke with madison both, both the models you need to do with a form already

a lot of a a with the 1st one that we're to with when i was a proud name,

becomes the african and engagement. it was the trail. when so many find themselves worlds apart, we choose to look for common ground. with. welcome back to cross were all things are considered. i'm peter labelle. this is the home addition to remind you were discussing some realtors. oh, he was go back to d. m a, hear it in moscow. friends, centrally. when we look at this, a conflict in ukraine, at least for the west. um they, they won't say it out loud. but you know, it's not about freedom, it's not about the mob not about territorial. that's all, that's what we keep hearing on the airways. but it's really about energy here and

not fossil fuel energy. it's all about green energy. and ukraine is being used as a segue to push the transition. this is something that, you know, this is a gleeful about it there, gleeful about because they don't have to bring it to their people and vote on it the way it is. because you know, rules based order and all of this type of stuff here. but at the same time, and this is what i need to explain, they're opening up whole mines again and are well made natural gas maybe isn't so dirty here. i mean, what are their priorities here? because if they, on the one hand, you know, it's, you know, territorial integrity. on the other hand, it's agree new deal. but they keep interweaving and clashing with each other and they can't make up their mind. what is their priority demon? where i have, i would say not the privilege but the duty to read the warning german press. i'm just read it so we don't have to thank you. d a d b side. you know, they the right that 62 percent of the guns for the government's advice and now they

watch themselves a few times a week and a for alissa. ok. 162 percent of people already believe these crap and you know, the way that the government is dealing with people in terms of why you have to read, you know that the temperature awesome. you have to watch read. i mean that these people who use russian channel there yet, but we know what he told you the difference between all sort of darion and to put it there in florida. gmc ok, don't publish every day, just on your printer. i so it didn't say, how else with what, which theatre waste, you could go to which books you should read, you know how to educate your children. so in this situation, during our walks su, but that it darian state, they tell their people how hm what,

what is what for their house. there is a very, very strange theory now that washing, but it also makes is bad. and it's just the plain and the problem with their in states is that they use ideology against mass against mathematics. i mean in deer force, which is a huge or very what management model their best interest of gov bush time, all the handle on the he just gave a mathematical analysis or what's going on it. germany has 40 medium households. 20000000 of them are heated by guess. rational gas, it calls for 55 percent. how are we going to do without ok? so this is a mathematical question. then i know what it will answer. what ran it. worse for short periods of time, you know, don't use your car,

don't use your i don't know what else go microwave. i mean, it smacks all the sudden even worse. well, i mean it, george, i mean a, is this going back to the 1840s? i mean, i'm, i'm, i'm trying to understand what's going on in the world is a super competitive police. but, and then we look at the europeans, you know, i mean, what, what is it, you know, pragmatism isn't ideology. can they marry the 2? it seems that they, they're, they're, they're, they're pushing things that are just diametrically opposed to each other, and the result is cold and lack of productivity and, you know, the world passes them by a, some kind of backwater. and this is all done intentionally good. yes, it is a short reason. there's been this seamless transition from lee cove is area. now the energy steering, i mean it's just you, you don't even notice it. so we was screaming at the anti back says the non

mosque, whereas the people who are protesting against the lock down, you know, they will be good because they refuse to express social solidarity. they were entirely selfish, and we were supposed to hate them. so now we're rapidly going to be moving into a new era with all those who don't want to share out the energy. i mean, i'm going to be really in the process. you know, they don't want to share out the gas and that they can design their own deals with russia. and so this is now the and that everyone who is going to be taking showers of a to long, you know, they're going to be the is, i guess that's a new thing. shower shaming is that the shower, exactly all people, you know what they cost, you know, more than once a month. so if you ever, now it's only going to be a fall in be insufficiently for expressing solidarity and of course will be

put in this. this isn't the how the, you know, this as the, the said, this kind of a no one ever really know the parent was going to say no one really kind of a, you know, to the, from the mental questions about the no one on the mental question. to what end is all this? why are we making the sacrifice? no, you're just going to shop and just get with the program or else you know we're going to punish you. and so anyway, give me a mindful thinking. shot too long in the shower. we had 0 with 0 cove and now we have 0 fossil fuel. ok, niema. let me go to you. i mean, usually when these unusual and very strident on demands of people, it's during a momentary crisis. ok moment case. you know, what i mean by that is that, you know, when the crisis will come to an end and you go back to not, this is completely open ended. you start saving 15. you're,

you're told to say 50 percent on energy towards what end. i mean it will that make the situation better? how will lee alleviate it? they don't have any answers. there's no, there's no exit from this. it just seems it's going to be akin latoria. they're going to me and then the 40 percent and 60 percent. and the result will be the same . i don't understand what, what they're driving at what their goal is. go ahead, my lease. i'm sorry, ease. i want to go to the area. i mean, if i use rights, something like this. ok, our people are terrified about get, you know, just 19 percent. so inside their own the suite while keep with russia, i've been through so many difficult just them march wall, i have sustainable. so i mean this is difficult that they get it looked the amy is so strong. amy can make any sacrifice. that means that you should be making

sacrifices. ok, 15 percent less. today's going to percent less. the moral. don't ask why? well, if you ask us why, because you know, if you ask us, why did we support when you read, which started before being in 2014, don't expect us from us to draw. these are the people, you know, we have to see places change. so we're not responsible with these people did. they didn't there. and so i'm in the wrong way on the they're all good, nice, nice, nice groups. you know, i don't ask any questions that ask a question to coach and you know, via and also what is very important is you always require prices. and 2nd, at that it is, you always intimidate, you will all die from point. there will be an alignment. so if you don't listen to

us and if you don't work with all the water line, it will go apps, you know. so basically let me remind you of how people are basically broaden germans into, into horse. you said that we have not enough space off. let us wrong, if we don't expand into years, we're going to die. that was a lie because germans on a much smaller energy, also that will to create a sustainable economy which fed up with them. but a segue is perfectly did the last question i have for george here. you're right. we have the german economic miracle because there was cheap soviet then that later russian gas. so, george, you know, on a global scale here, the global south is saying, you know, the europeans got really rich because they had access to very cheap fossil fuels, primarily oil and gas. so now they're looking, they're stepping up your plate, say,

our turn we would like that energy to do exactly what the europeans had and what they are they willing to give up, but we'll make it in line. we'll take it. that's exactly what's happening. yes, yes. but the strange thing is that the europeans and the extent the americans are weighted to a ology that is propagated by the world economic forum and, and ever. and it's not entirely clear what the deal is, other than they want to reduce the population of the world. i mean, that's their agenda and green energy, somehow. those in, without an agenda the, you know, as was the, the fear of pandemic. and with those, you know, hey, people having children or anything like that. so it's a part of the same things. are they using this, a crisis of ukraine, essentially to car all use of fossil fuels and to move to these renewables?

they know perfectly well there is no way in the world that germany can continue to be an economic powerhouse relying on solar panels and, and wind, but the pushing it. and you have to think that based on how long you're in the united states to be kind of this engine for growth. i mean, they want to continue to be prosperous themselves. they don't really want to extend this prosperity to others. i mean, it seems, you know, that the europeans want to set an example for the world that, that's something that we see here. and, you know, you know, eventually, you know, you will be carbon chain. and you know, this country uses do much are, but you know that, that will be, you know, it will be another reason for nato. it to happen be, are they being there for what bridge to be ok. but i mean, but it doesn't work logically because then they become less competitive. they become for the come more irrelevant. and so everyone, the learning example be don't do what they hear. it drives you the grow,

go head in the last 30 seconds, go to you. well, for a magazine smell radio spot, all in europe, extreme is all the groups not only about which are concerned about it, but also about energy crisis. so we're all extremely snow people don't. and 2nd, there was one person who said that basically by this policy, europe is destroy and you would be, and if you main type of that was a gross. yeah. i'm just go get him. so i'm, i'm not saying it on my own. but as i said, it would be good to go magazine. this is always food. this is always seem to back these old conspiracy theories. well, well, it will have as well. and you're at least a winter coming up. we'll have cold capitalism. okay. see how that feels. okay, go out. okay. i'm watching themselves a, digging further in into their problems. it's extraordinary to witness gentlemen. that's all the time we have. i want to thank my guest in budapest and here in

moscow, i want to thank our viewers from watching us. here. are the remember up rules ah ah, with a not another while you while div easy while finance us. ah. here, do you have one flight yet if south? yeah. thrashing south

with a new dock. awesome voice. now watch them up all mutable. upright beat on the is emily apples video from sheila? this is kim serum thought video. the was the ella, a bill. and that's my fault or change in the again the audio fortune pretty up in the be a lot about it more in search for natur. ah, oh