ah, ah hello and welcome to cross. well, things are considered on people since the started russian special military operation. ukraine is tied up in knots. it declares it must be independent of russian energy. well, at the same time, terrified moscow might terminate supplies altogether at any time. for the e u energy policy is an ideological struggle. ah, discuss these issues and more. i'm joined by my guess, george samuel l. e. in budapest, he's a podcast or the guy which will be found on youtube and locals. and here in moscow we have to be bob and she's a political analyst and editor at you know me internet media project, or

a gentleman across the rules. and the fact that you can jump the time you want, and i always appreciate it. when i start out with georgia in budapest, georgia. very simple question. does the you have a coherent energy policy because it seems like, you know, i don't want to use a heat metaphor, but i, well there their hair is on fire talking about how to deal with energy during the summer and the upcoming winter. they want to cut so dependence on russia, but they're terrified as i said in my introduction that it could be shut off. i mean, what isn't? go ahead. that's exactly right. it is. so we have the one hand also the lie in the you, the president of the you commission was that we are going to cover of completely wrong russia and floral. so fuels and we will never be dependent on them again. and then i say, she turns around and uses russia of withholding energy supplied holding bag gas.

and they, using gas is a political weapon. so if you will, do you want brushing gas or don't you want rushing? yes, you can get a straight answer. i mean, depends on what time of they, you ask the question and then this is the point they have been using russia for months and months of using gas as a weapon. when the only people would be using energy as a weapon has been the young. i mean the, you know what, they say they were the band, russian colon boards, then they said we're not going to have any. 1 russian oil imports starting in december, then they close down lee and more stream to before we even start the a grain closing off one of its a do transport russian gas into europe. and then we had the sanctions coming from canada when

a compressor that was needed repairing center, siemens and germany, germany, senator canada, canada. so no, we're not returning it because it's sanctioned as well. all the issues being driven from the western end of the propaganda is the somehow in russia is using energy as a weapon. when, when did that happen? well, daemon, i mean, the real political weapon here has been sanctions. the only thing that's really changed with russian energy policy be the v. europe is that the russians that they gave us the base started charging in roubles, which it makes perfect sense because of the sanctions and the, and then those with system russia being shut out. i mean if they, if they continue paying in dollars or euro's, it would just be froze, it encompass dated. so i mean, that's the only significant change. and we all of the upper or over north stream one. well it's, it's back in business. ok. most of the gas is flowing again. i mean,

it doesn't really make any sense to me what they want to do, and there is no unity in the european union. so what russia is supposed to do, these are the, the, the, you have to deal with independent in the, in the, of the individual members of the you. because the, you, as a whole, has no coherent policy. what say you the mom? well i think sometimes you just plays all the stuff on just a very often they just use this phrase. fortune is using a gas as a wiper. they don't even have the political. so people have these, oh, terrible images. oh wow. so this is a terrible bridge to say in your so these people i don't even in the way the express does not. but you are the right about the what i would collective

incentives. the problem with you is that the song with the mattress is what left ration then every member they can individual. i mean, all of the most tragic, more playful. just you don't. so the, you were taken collector. i mean, the situation with russia is just the latest example, the experts in germany, for example, that and your company. you know, he says that basically like a is always 100 percent dependent on russian. a guess. bulgaria is almost 100 percent depend. this is india, it's dungeon. so even if germany thinks that it can provide for itself who is thinking about the gary, this will make it right. the 2nd the 2nd such example is, is syria. i mean, i remember all the events develop or key. there were disturbances,

there are products in syria and, and do ever so instead, all either stay in europe or how been off for find need or the role solution the you can left to really support the position and we know the result. you know, the civil war, that gears. so all of the most painful way you are connected. you know, i'm terrified voice. there's no collective though there's no solidarity here. george is in the country right now in hungry basically. well, i won't say it on this program, but they went their own way. it was put it that way. george. yeah, no, that's right. last week a foreign minister, b. c. i o flew to moscow breaking ranks with the rest of the you and signed the agreement with russia for 700000000 metric tons of

natural gas. did it? is that a hungry needs a gas as a well, we're not sharing any of those gas with anyone with a day off the european commission issue, this new dig that of demanding the all you meant to say reduce a gas consumption by 15 percent and then that would be a protest from a number of states including spain and portugal, and greece saying, well, why should we come back when our gas use? this is a german problem. it is very much a part of the way the germans do this. i mean, the germans make these big decisions and then they force everyone else to live with . this is, i mean, casing point is of course the,

the decision of i'm going to model 2015 to start bringing in the immigrants into europe, which everyone else or something of an obligation to say, well, have a peculiar understanding of solidarity. don't they have it? we do it. everybody else that out there? yes. that, yeah, exactly. and it back, it was germany that has been very dependent on russian. yes. and then it was germany that made these extraordinary decisions like canceling the stream to at the very last moment. and so, and this is why the europeans now say, you know, a well, where was germany when we needed them after the 2008 crisis, and we need a bailout, and suddenly the germans, they well, sorry, we don't have the money to bail anyone out so now is that the europeans off the bus to bail germany as well. and also we had, over the last few days,

we had threatening to shut pipeline. that was supplying europe that you know, that there's been agreed to. and so, you know, it again, just adds to the quandary here. i mean, russia breton, the cut of energy, but it's ukraine that is threatening to cut off russian energy customers in europe . so, i mean, where's the, where's the angered towards the ukrainians for threatening europe, energy security go ahead, doesn't make any sense where we make sense, but i was logically, there you go. that's made, but it may sound well for me, i'm sorry. it was. what was the, was just all the states opposing north jim, bon, unrolled student to me. they said that these rush and get has to do great. so the grain or get to rochester at all, you know, we are wanting to continue to supply your brain,

but that just makes sense to have a battle now that you can so i guess no, no, no way to deal with that. now that is basically a terrible confrontation within russia and ukraine. your brain is charging some of these by saying that they have why and what they call the occupied. so i mean, rush to gain weight even though it was doing, i think it was the you that said the usual all rely by agreeing bolts to do is eunice dimon explained to our audience, your, what does the united states up into? what is your be in energy? can you, i mean, why did they put poking their beak into something that is so important? we're not talking about, you know, the size of our because here we're talking about people going to be warm in the winter. you're absolutely right. united space, not and you know,

but this russian drummond pipeline. i mean, what we'll do, i'd say you said oh with oppose a pipeline from canada, united states, but we in fact go buy them, do these for us. brilliant. you know, you create the, all the programs in america and had to do supplies. but we never even thought about raising any questions about pipelines between mexico and canada. united states being least has the right to, you know, to pronounce judgment. one rus russell government project to impose sanctions. all the companies participate in it. and before that, the states savage, i worked against south sky, which was basically an air supply and cheese gas to read and agreed to do well. in fact, part of the problem, the reason why i read crisis is going to be

a voice if they had the rush or it would be so. but it was the, you know, your pin commission and great, a stand tonight states that basically did everything. but the solid still going to never ignore me, but i guess my question is, what a rhetorical in the united states have to do with your energy security? well, it's all about money. they want them to buy american energy when you know is being fossil fuels are being attacked in the us. so there's only one outcome here. a higher. right? so the europeans. but he get up and cheat, rushing energy and paper very expensive gulf in america. oh, wow. that's a brilliant move, isn't it? go ahead. no, it is. of course, it makes the europeans very uncompetitive. i mean, you're already has problems with keeping up with east asia. 5 but now the one thing that they had, which was very reliable,

she source of energy promotion. now they've given that out and they've done it on the american pressure. they come thinking you great as come under american, russian with the americans who pressed the ukraine. membership in the nato was the americans continue to provoke and to provoke. and basically if you're busy just a little hard breaking up on some real estate market, ah, a oh,

well, she's news media cards. and like if you speak russian, keep your voice down while out and about a couple. don't put your human symbols on display a guy so you guys don't talk to strangers. 7 i avoid noisy gatherings and run a more actually, even your colleagues and perhaps also your friends think you're guilty because you'll, russian a by

mutual a specific social with a welcome back to class that were all things are considered id labelle. this is the home edition to remind you, we're discussing some realtors. oh, you go back to d. m a here in moscow from centrally, when we look at a conflict in ukraine, at least for the well, they won't say it out loud, but you know, it's not about freedom. it's not about to mocks, not about territorial. that's all that we keep hearing on the airlines, but it's really about energy here and not fossil fuel energy. it's all about green energy. and ukraine is being used as

a segue to push the transition. this is something that, you know, this is a gleeful about it there, gleeful about because they don't have to bring it to their people and vote on it. they'll say it just because, you know, rules based order and all of this type of stuff here. but at the same time, and this is what i need to explain, they're opening up whole mines again and are well made natural gas maybe isn't so dirty here. i mean, what are their priorities here? because if they, on the one hand, you know it's, you know, territorial integrity. on the other hand, it's re new deal. but they keep interweaving in clashing with each other and they can't make up their mind. what is their priority thema, where i have, i would say not the privilege but the duty to read the war, drum brass and i'm just read it so we don't have to thank you. d a d b side the, you know, they the right that 62 percent of the germans for the government's advice and now the work themselves a few times a week and a for alissa. ok,

how does 162 percent of people already believe these crap and you know, the way the government is dealing with people in terms of like, you have to read, you know that the temperature also you have to watch. i mean that these people that use russian channel story period, but we know what he told you the difference between authoritarian and to put it there in the sheets authoritarian regime say ok, don't publish guarantee just on the president by the 23rd of the him say how often wash yourself, which theatre ways you could go which books you should read, you know how with educate your children. so in this situation, during our walks su, but that it darian stated, they tell their people how, what, what is what for their house. there is a very, very strange theory. now that washing very often makes is bad. right?

and it's just the plain and the problem with their in states is that they use ideology, engaged mass against mathematics. i mean, in your force, which is a huge or very what medicine you model their best interest robert. warm ahead of us. he just gave a mathematical analysis or what's going on. germany has 40 medium households. 20000000 of them are heated by guess. rational gas, eco sport, 55 percent. how are going to do without ok? so this is a mathematical question. then i don't want to go on what ran it worse for short periods of time. you know, don't use your car, don't use your i don't know what else i can wait. i mean, it smacks all the sudden even worse. well, i mean it, george. i mean a,

is this going back to the 1840s? i mean, i'm trying to understand what's going on in the world is a super competitive police. but and, and then we look at the europeans, you know, i mean, what, what is it, you know, pragmatism isn't ideology. can they marry the 2? it seems that they, they're, they're, they're, they're pushing thing that are just diametrically opposed to each other. and the result is cold and lack of productivity and you know, the world passes them by and some kind of backwater and this is all done intentionally. go ahead. yes, it is a short reason. there's been this seamless transition from lee cove is area now to the the energy standard. i mean, it's just you, you don't even notice it. so we was screaming at the anti back says the non mosque, whereas the people who were protesting against the lock down, you know,

they were all the terrible people because they refused to express social solidarity . they were entirely selfish, and we were supposed to hate them. so now we're rapidly going to be moving into a new era with don't want to share out the energy. i mean, i'm going to be really in the cross, as you know, they don't want to share out the gas. and you know, they can design their own deals with russia. and so this is now everyone who is going to be taking showers of the too long. you know, they're going to be the, it, i guess that's a new thing. shower shaming is that the shower, jamie, exactly, you know, people, you know, watch the car, you know, more than once a month. i mean, if you ever was now only going to be a fall in be insufficiently a expressing solidarity and of course will be good. so this, this isn't the how the, you know, this, as the said,

this kind of a, no one ever really for the battle with it is the same. no one really kind of a, you know, to the, from the mental questions about the no one will on the mental question to what end is old is, why are we making the sacrifice? no, you just don't get a shop and just get with the program or else you know, we got to punish you. and so yeah, like i mean, my whole taking shot too long in the shower. we had 0 with 0 cove and now we have 0 fossil fuel. ok, niema. let me go to you. i mean, usually when these unusual and very strident on demands of people, it's during a momentary crisis. ok moment case. you know, what i mean by that is that, you know, when the crisis will come to an end and you go back to not, this is completely open ended. you start saving 15. you're, you're told to say 15 percent on energy towards what end. i mean,

it will that make the situation better how lee alleviated they don't have any answers. there's no, there's no exit from this. it just seems it's going to be a kim latoria. they're going to be and then the 40 percent and 60 percent. and the results will be the same. i don't understand what, what they're driving at what their goal is. go ahead. logical this. i'm sorry, i want to go to the area. i mean, anybody writes something like this. ok, our people want to find a ball to get, you know, just 90 percent. so since inside their own, so the sweet while people with russia, i've been through so many difficult just them march war life sustainable. so i mean this is difficult that they did it look that amy is so strong and you mean i can't make any sacrifice. that means that you should be made in 2nd crisis. ok. 15 percent less. today's 20 percent less moral. don't ask why. well,

if you ask us why it was a, you know, if you asked us, why did we support when you greenwich started before being in 2014? don't expect us from us for these were, are the people, you know, we have to see places change. so we're not responsible with these people, did they taking their bass? i mean, not on their own, the, their old age and nice, nice, nice groups. you know, i don't, i wish that ask a question stupid, you know? and also what is very important, if you always require prices. and 2nd at that is you always intimidate, you will all die from point. there will be a climate if you don't listen to us and if you don't course with cold water glam, it will collapse. you know, so basically let me remind your heater basically broaden germans into into horse.

you said that we have not enough space off. let us wrong. if we don't expand into years, we're all going to die. and that was a lie because germans on a much more energy off of the world war to create that sustainable economy which fed not only them, but a segue is perfectly the last question i have for george here, you're right. we have the german economic miracle because there was cheap soviet then that later, russian gas. so, george, you know, on a global scale here, the global south is saying, you know, the europeans got really rich because they had access to very cheap fossil fuels, primarily oil and gas. so now they're looking, they're stepping up and say, our turn we would like that energy to do exactly what the europeans had and what they are they willing to give up? but we'll make it in line. we'll take it. that's exactly what's happening. yes,

yes. but the strange thing is that the european does that extent the americans are weighted to an e. ology that is propagated by the world economic forum and, and they were and it's not entirely clear what the deal is other than they want to reduce the population of the world. i mean, i back their agenda and green energy. somehow those in with that, of the gender as was the, the fear of pandemic. and, and of course, you know, 8 people having children or anything like that. so it's, it's a part of the same things. are they using this crisis of ukraine, essentially to cause all use the fossil fuels or the move to these renewable they know perfectly well there is no way in the world that germany can continue to be an economic out relying on solar panels. and when

they're pushing it and you have based on how don't want europe in the united states to be kind of the engine will grow. i mean, they want to continue to be prosperous themselves. they don't really want to extend this prosperity to others. it seems, you know, the europeans want to set an example for the world, but that's something that we see here. and, you know, eventually, you know, they'll be carbon changing in this country. use this too much carbon, you know, that, that will be, you know, it will be another reason for nato or to be, are they think they're too big. okay. but i mean, but it doesn't work logically because then they become less competitive. they become already come more irrelevant and so everyone, they, the learning example be don't do what drives you with the grow. go ahead in the last 30 seconds. well, wanting to just figure magazines will radius all in europe. extreme is all the

groups not only about which are concerned about it, but also about energy crisis. so they're all, it's genius. now people doubt and there was one person who said that basically by these already see europe is destroyed. european main campus. therefore ego or sanction that yeah, i'm just go get him. ah, so i look, i'm not saying it on my own, but as i said, it would be go magazine. this is all it's steve. this is always seem to back the whole conspiracy theories. right, well it will have as well, and you're at least in the winter coming up, we'll have cold capitalism. ok. see how that feels? ok, go out. ok. i'm watching themselves or digging further in to their problems. it's extraordinary to witness gentlemen. that's all the time we have a want to think, my guess in budapest and here in moscow want to thank you for watching us. here. are the remember crossed up rules. ah

ah, i'm willing of a so we're tv audio. no cranium, tv audio. soon enough id, she ship a control in particular bought so you should feel free to give them awarded by like you. so that will only be me or not, did not sing the vice president of lucy, leah with pocono jones. actually, it's stems out arkell room. there's a lot of the my subway, but just a quick

actually with global that machine. years about i should look on my job is to pull out the enough room for a few quick to take a picture. i'll go double play with ah, ah, with a with

ah moscow sloane, the un decision to block the international atomic energy agency from accessing this up at rogia and nuclear power plant and make continuing shelling of the side by ukrainian troops also ahead on the program. this may be about 1500 meters towards the ukrainian positions from where we are right now. i'm talking about the town of save us. this is the main whole sport on this direction. at ortiz cru visits, the frontline in films were russian lead forces are battling ukraine's nationalists cracking.