started russian special military operation and you crate it up and not it declares it must be independent of russian energy. well, at the same time, terrified moscow might terminate supplies altogether at any time. for the e. u. energy policy is an ideological struggle. our to discuss these issues and more, i'm joined by my guess, george samuel in budapest. he's a pastor in the god which will be found on you to the locals. and here in moscow we have to meet bob and she's a political analyst and editor. and you know me, internet media or i generally crossed out rules and back. that means you can juggling time you want, and i would appreciate it when i start out with georgia in budapest, georgia. very simple question. does the you have a coherent energy policy because it seems like, you know, and i don't want to use

a heat metaphor, but i, well there their hair is on fire talking about how to deal with energy during the summer in the upcoming winter. they want to cut so dependence on russia, but they're terrified as i said in my introduction that it could be shut off. i mean, what is it? go ahead. that's exactly right. and so we have on the one hand, also home diane, d, u, a president of the commission. we said we are going to cut us off completely from russian fossil fuels and we will never be dependent on them again. and then the next day she does around and uses russia, although withholding energy supplies, you know, holding back gas, you know, and they using gas as a political weapon. so you awesome, well, do you want russian gas or don't you want russian? yes, you can get a straight answer. i mean, depends on what time of day you ask the question and this is really low point. they

have been using russia for months and months of using gas as a weapon. when the only people will be using energy as a weapon, as in the, you know, i mean the, you know what, they say they back russian colon pause, then they say, we're not going to have any russian oil in both starting in december. and then they close down the stream to before it even started a grain closing off one of its a do transfer russian gas, europe. and then we have the, you know, the, the sanctions coming from canada when a compressor that was needed repairing was sent to siemens in germany, germany center to canada, canada. so no, we're not returning it because it sanctioned, as of all the issues being driven from the western end of the propaganda is the somehow in russia is using energy as a weapon. when, when did that happen?

well, a demon, i mean, the real political weapon here has been sanctions. the only thing that's really changed with russian energy policy. visa europe is that the russians that like us, they start charging in roubles, which it makes perfect sense because of the sanctions and the, and then those swift system, russia being shut out. i mean, if they, if they continue paying in dollars or euro's, it would just be froze, it encompass dated. so i mean, that's the only significant change. and we all of the upper or over north stream one. well it's, it's back in business. ok. most of the gas is flowing again. i mean, it doesn't really make any sense to me what they want to do, and there is no unity in the european union. so what is russia supposed to do? these of the, the, you have to deal with independent in the, in the, of the individual members of the you because the, you, as a whole, has no coherent policy. what say you the mom?

well, i think sometimes you just lays all the stuff on just a very often they just use this phrase, butcher, he's using gas wiper, they don't people and the political. so people have these. oh, terrible images. oh wow. wow. this is a terrible chris said in your, you know, so these people are deeply on even in the way they express themselves. but you are right about the what i would collective incentives. the problem with you is that the song smell is a lot less ration than every member they can individual. i mean, all that most tragic, more playful, just you don't. so the, you were collecting i mean,

the situation with russia is just the latest example. the experts in germany, for example, at the end of the conference. you know, he says that basically is always 100 percent dependent on russian guess. bulgaria is almost 100 percent dependence. this is india. it's done. so even if germany things can provide for itself, who is thinking about go get it right. the 2nd, the 2nd such example is syria. i'm in the and that's remember all the events or key . there were disturbances that were brought us in syria and into ever so instead, or either stay neutral or how been off that vision for find need or the role solution that you can left to really support the position. and we know

the result. you know, the civil war, the gears so all of them most painful way you can, you know, i'm terrified voice. there's no collective though there's no solidarity here. george is in the country right now in hungry. they basically won't say it on this program bit. they went their own way. it was put it that way. george. yeah, no, that's right. you back last week, a foreign minister, a go, flew to moscow breaking ranks with the rest of the year and signed an agreement with russia for 700000000 metric tons of natural gas. it is a hungry needs, a gas as a well, we're not sharing any of those gas with anyone. with a day off,

the european commission issued this new dig that of demanding the all you member states reduce a gas consumption by 15 percent. and then that would be a protest from a number of states including spain and portugal, and greece saying, well, why should we cut back on our gas use? this is a german problem. it is very much a boss of the way the germans do this. i mean, the germans make these big decisions and then they force everyone else to live with . this is, i mean, a case in point is of course the, the decision of i'm going to michael 2015 to start bringing in immigrants into europe, which everyone else or something of an obligation to say as well. have a peculiar understanding of solidarity. don't they have it? we do it. everybody else that solid arity?

yes. that yeah, exactly. and it back, it was germany that has been very dependent on russian. yes. and then he was germany that made these extraordinary decisions like canceling the stream too. at the very last moment. and so, and this is why the europeans now say, you know, a well, where was germany when we needed them out of the 2008 crisis. 6 and we need a bailout. suddenly the germans say, well, sorry, we don't have the money to bail anyone out. so now is that the europeans are supposed to. ready bail germany as well. and also we had, over the last few days, we had the threatening to shut a pipeline that was supplying europe that you know, that has been agreed to. and so, you know, again, this adds to the quandary here. i mean, russia threatened to cut energy, but it's ukraine. that is reckoning the cut off. russian entered the customers in

europe. so i mean, went, where's the, where's the anger towards the ukrainians for threatening europe, energy security go ahead. doesn't make any sense. well it makes sense, but i was logically there you go. that's made but it may sound well for i'm sorry it was what was the was just all state's opposing north jim. bon, enrolled student to me. they said that these raja get has to grow. so the grain will get russia said, oh, you know, we are wanting to continue to supply your brain. but that just makes sense to me now that you can so i guess no, no, no, no, it should be great. now that there is basically this terrible confrontation within russia and ukraine. your brain is charging some of these by

saying that they have line what they call the occupied. so i mean, rush to gain weight even though it was doing, i think it was the you that said the usual all rely but you bring bolts to do is units it's dim, explained to our audience, what does the united states up into? what is your be in energy? can you like me? why did they put poking there? begin to something that is so important. we're not talking about, you know, the size of a cato here. we're talking about people going to be warm in the winter. you're absolutely right. united space, not and you know, but this russian drummond pipeline. i mean, what we'll do, i'd say that, oh, with a pool is a pipeline from canada, united states. but in fact, job why that has been doing for us. brilliant, you know, and he created the programs in america and had to do supplies. but we never even

thought about raising any questions about pipelines between mexico and canada. united states being the right to, you know, to pronounce judgment. one rus russell. the project to impose sanctions, all the companies participate in it. and before that they sabotaged and worked against sol speed, which was basically a app supply and cheap gas to read and agreed to do well. in fact, part of the problem, the reason why i read crisis is going to be a voice if they had the rough guess what it would be. so but it was the you, in your opinion, commission, and great. they stand tonight, states that basically did everything will be solid, the project never comes to the door. you know,

what i guess my question was whether the rhetorical in the united states have to do with your energy security. well, it's all about money. they want them to buy american energy when you know is being fossil fuels are being attacked in the us. so there's only one outcome here, a higher. right? so the europeans, but to get up and cheap russian energy and paper very expensive gulf in america. wow. that's a 1000000 move business. go ahead. it is, of course, it makes the europeans very uncompetitive. i mean, you're already has problems with keeping up with east asia. but now the one thing that they had, which was very reliable source of energy, russia, now they've given that up and they've done it on the american pressure. they cause they can you grade as come under american pressures, the americans press the ukraine membership in the americans continue to provoke and

to provoke. and basically if you're busy just a little hard on some real estate. ah ah a with

oh when i was shocked, seemed wrong when all through. just don't hold any new world yet to shape out these days because the advocate and engagement equals the trail. when so many find themselves worlds apart, we choose to look for common ground. with welcome back to cross were all things considered id labelle, this is the home addition to remind you. we're discussing some real oh we will go back to the you may hear it in moscow from centrally. when we look at

this, a conflict in ukraine, at least for the west, a, they, they won't say it out loud, but you know, it's not about freedom. it's not about the mocks, not about territorial. that's all, that's what we keep hearing on the airways. but it's really about energy here and not fossil fuel energy. it's all about green energy. and ukraine is being used as a segue to push the transition. this is something that, you know, this is a gleeful about it. they're gleeful about because they, they don't have to bring it to their people and vote on it the way it is. because you know, rules based order and all of this type of stuff here. but at the same time, and this is what i need to explain, they're opening up whole mines again and are, well, main natural gas maybe isn't so dirty here. i mean, what are their priorities here? because if they, on the one hand, you know it's, you know, territorial integrity. on the other hand, it's agree new deal. but they keep interweaving in clashing with each other and they can't make up their mind. what is their priority thema?

well i have, i would say not the privilege but the duty. ready to read the warning german press, i'm just read it so we don't have to thank you d a d b side the you know, they the right that 62 percent of the guns for the government's advice. and now the work themselves a few times a week and a for alissa. ok. 162 percent of people already believe these crap. and you know, the way that the government is dealing with people in terms of why you have to read, you know, that the temperature also you have to watch read. i mean that these people who use russian channel there yet, but we know what he told you the difference between authoritarian and to put it there in florida. gmc ok, don't publish every day just on the president. i insane how else of what your

cells, which theater ways you could go to which books you should read, you know how to educate your children. so in this situation, during our walks su, but that, that it darian state, they tell their people how hm what, what is what? well, there, there is a very, very strange theory. now that washing, but it also makes is bad. and it's just the plain and the problem with their in states is that they use ideology against mass against mathematics. i mean in gear force, which is a future or very what medicine, one of their best interest. regardless, all the handle on the, he just gave a mathematical analysis or what's going on. germany has 14 medium households, 20000000 of them are heated by guess. rational gas, eco sport,

55 percent. how are we going to do without ok? so this is a mathematical question, then i know what to go on. what ran it worse for short periods of time, you know, don't use your car, don't use your i don't know what else? yeah. go microwave. well, i mean, it smacks all the sudden even worse. well, i mean it, george amena is, is that going back to the 1840s? i mean, i'm, i'm, i'm trying to understand what's going on in the world is a super competitive police. but, and then we look at the europeans, you know, i mean, what is it, you know, pragmatism isn't ideology. can they marry the 2? it seems that they, they're, they're, they're, they're pushing things that are just diametrically opposed to each other. and the result is cold. and lack of productivity and you know, the world passes them by a, some kind of backwater. and this is all done intentionally good. yes, it's

a short reason. there's been this seamless transition from lee cove is area now, the energy stair. i mean, it's just you, you don't even notice it. so we was screaming at the anti back says the non mosque, whereas the people who are protesting against the lock down, you know, they were with them because they refused to express social solidarity. they were entirely selfish. and we were supposed to hate them. so now we're rapidly going to be moving into a new era with who don't want to share out their energy. i mean, i'm going to be really in the process. you know, they don't want to share out the gas. and they can design their own deals with russia. and so this is now the and that everyone who is not going to be taking showers of a to long, you know, that they are going to be the is, i guess that's a new thing. shower shaming is that the shower, exactly all people,

you know what they cost, you know, more than once a month. so if you ever now on the, going to be a fall in be insufficiently a expressing solidarity and of course will be put in this, this isn't the how the, you know, this as the the said, this kind of a j as well. no one ever really for the parent was going to say no one really kind of a, you know, to go on the mental questions about that go with no one else. the fundamental question to what end is all this? why are we making the sacrifice? no, you just don't you know, shop and just get with the program or else you know, we're going to punish you. and so anyway, give me a mindful thinking shot too long in the shower. we had 0 with 0 cove and now we have 0 fossil fuel. ok, niema. let me go to you. i mean,

usually when these unusual and very strident on demands of people, it's during a momentary crisis. ok moment case. you know, what i mean by that is that, you know, when the crisis will come to an end and you go back to know this is completely open ended. i'll get you started saving 15. you're, you're told to say 15 percent on energy towards what end. i mean it will that make the situation better? how a li alleviated they don't have any answers. there's no, there's no exit from this. it just seems it's going to be a kim latoria. they're going to me and then the 40 percent and 60 percent. and the result will be the same. i don't understand what, what they're driving at what their goal is. go ahead, my lease. i'm sorry, i want to go to the area. i mean, if i use rights, something like this, our people are terrified about get, you know, just 19 percent. so inside their own, the suite, while keep with russia,

i've been through so many difficult just them march wall, i have sustainable. so i mean, this is difficult that they get it looked the amy is so strong that amy can make any sacrifice. that means that you should be making sacrifices. ok. 15 percent less . today's going to percent less. the moral. don't ask us. right. well, if you ask us why it is because of, you know, if you ask us, why did we support when you greenwich started before being in 2014? don't expect us from sure these are the people, you know, we have to see places change. so we're not responsible with these people, didn't they didn't, they're bad. so i'm in the wrong way on their own gauge and nice, nice, nice groups. you know, i don't ask any questions that ask a question to coach and you know, via and also what is very important is you always require prices.

and 2nd, at that it is, you always intimidate, you will all die from point. there will be an alignment. so if you don't listen to us and if you don't work with all the water line, it will go apps, you know. so basically let me remind you how people are basically broaden germans into, into horse. you said that we have not enough even space off. let us wrong, if we don't expand into years, we're all going to die. and that was a lie because germans on a much smaller territory after the war to create a sustainable economy which fed up with them. but a segue is perfectly the last question i have for george here, you're right. we have the german economic miracle because there was cheap soviet then that later, russian gas. so, george, you know, on a global scale here,

the global south is saying, you know, the europeans got really rich because they had access to very cheap fossil fuels, primarily oil and gas. so now they're looking, they're stepping up your plate, say, our turn we would like that energy to do exactly what the europeans had and what they are they willing to give up, but we'll take it in line. we'll take it. that's exactly what's happening. yes, yes. but the strange thing is that the europeans and the extent the americans are weighted to a ology that is propagated by the world economic forum and, and ever. and it's not entirely clear what the deal is, other than they want to reduce the population of the world. i mean, that's their agenda and green energy, somehow. those in with that agenda, the, you know, as was the, the fear of pandemic. and with those, you know, hey,

people having children or anything like that. so it's a part of the same things. are they using this, a crisis of ukraine, essentially to car all use of fossil fuels and to move to these renewables? they know perfectly well there is no way in the world that germany can continue to be an economic powerhouse relying on solar panels and the wind. but the pushing it. and you have to think that based on how long you're in the united states to be kind of this engine will grow. i mean, they want to continue to be prosperous themselves. they don't really want to extend this prosperity to others. i mean, it seems, you know, the europeans want to set an example for the world that, that's something that we see here. and, you know, you know, eventually, you know, you will be carbon chain. and you know, this country uses do much are, but you know, that, that will be, you know, it will be another reason for nato. it to happen be, are they being, you know,

they're pretty big. ok. but i mean, but it doesn't work logically because then they become less competitive. they become for the come more irrelevant. and so everyone, the learning example be don't do what it drives you would do the grow, go head in the last 30 seconds. go to you. well, for a magazine smell radio spot, all in europe, extreme is all the groups not only about which are concerned about it, but also about energy crisis. so we're all extremely snow people don't. and 2nd, there was one person who said that basically by this policy, europe is destroy and you would be in a humane type of business. that was a gross. yeah. i'm just go get him. so i'm, i'm not saying it on my own. but as i said, it would be go magazine, this is all it's steve. this is always seem to back these

o conspiracy theories. well, well, it will have as well, and you're at least a winter coming. i will have cold capitalism. ok. see how that feels? ok, go out. ok. i'm watching themselves are digging further in to their problems. it's extraordinary to witness gentlemen. that's all the time we have. i want to thank my guest in budapest and here in my i want to thank our viewers from watching us. here are the remember up rules. ah ah ah, with a

ah. oh, to move or show you the most people who are so full is you do with russia is the aggression no answer much about. i need to keep. what's more the teaching was dealerships wellborn. here we have any quality for russians can all we gotta do is just read them over the head and just tell them the right way to live here is going to do it just a little bit. a boy with

this phone. number us the list with up nice gloves with the new show room juniors. i don't grew up with our season at the washer to work so i would have to watch with them. so what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have. it's crazy, even foundation, let it be an arms race who is on often very dramatic development only personally and getting to resist. i don't see how that strategy will be successful, very critical time time to sit down and talk

a out. russia warns that ukraine may conduct a massive, probably cation around the embattled darota nuclear power plant, as moscow called on the west to get the other forces to stop shelling the facility, the owners were evicted, maybe bring in proof. and now, well, whoever used to live here, they have no place to return to our tea. visit's a little gone town deserted by cab troops after heavy fighting, as the local militia now deals with a daunting task of clearing away the ukrainian units. and oh, hands are deeply split.