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hello and welcome to cross talk. we're all things considered, i'm peter about 5 months in the compet can ukraine is turned into a vicious cycle of escalation encounter escalation. the more the west arms give, the more ambitious moscow's battlefield aims become. on top of this kid wants the west to essentially underwrite its entire military and now economy. this is like pouring in good money after bad with cross stocking ukraine's future. i'm joined by my guess, natasha mileage in washington. he's a blogger and column this in new york. we have, daniel is our, he is a journalist and author of 3 books on the u. s. constitution. and in mexico, we crossed to alex rubinstein. he is an investigative journalist, i gentleman crosswalk, rules and a fact that music and anytime you want. and i always appreciate an abortion. let me

go to your 1st in washington. is reality slowly catching up to this propaganda effort that we've seen since the sort of the conflict. i mean, you know, we have a president zalinski and his wife, they have time for vogue magazine, shooting something that is akin to war porn. lensky wants, as the european union is cutting back dramatically on energy usage. ukraine wanted free now. and we can go on and on. i've lost count how many billions of dollars and arms have been sent there. but it's not working. okay. the propaganda is there, but the reality is forcing people slowly but surely that this is a lost cause. and the boy should go ahead. i don't think the west is quite there yet. i think they're still in the doubling down and denial stage that these the vogue photo shoot especially was, was a, to me an act of desperation to, to try to get some attention back to the issue. but nothing is going to change the

fact that ukraine is money peer to the more bottomless enough gamma stand ever was . and you know, say on the bursary of that is coming up. and we all know how that ended. even though the same media who are flogging some sort of miss of ukrainian victory, would love us to forget. and that was only a year ago. no, i mean the reality is that the war is going very conflict is going very badly for ukraine and the west and they're just not just refusing to admit it. then try to play word games and pretend to talk to kids. well, daniels ok. just dump, telling us what we just heard from the boys. i mean, am i being too cynical to say that this is just a griffin just they want to keep it going on as long as they possibly can because they're not having any meaningful impact on the battlefield. so keep taking the money, keep making demands, keep getting attention because it seems to me this entire effort part of the west, even though it is amazingly wasteful and corrupt. it's

a means to keep something going. well, the going is good because the end is near and i don't know when near it, but that means maybe in august and september, october. i don't know, daniel, it's like one of those road runner, cartoons the now we're wiley, coyote goes that goes running off a cliff and any sort of pause the mid air, looks at the audience and gulps then finally plummets a 1000 feet to the canyon for floor below, i mean, it's beginning to sink in in washington that the war and the ukraine is not going well. the ukranian government is showing signs of instability . the war aims are not well defined. and meanwhile, the u. s. is blundering is into trouble in the, in the taiwan straits. so things are not going well. and i think that realization is starting to think but the process,

so the process of waking up is only just begun, but eventually it'll happen. yeah. well alex, you know, admitting that you are wrong is something these people have never been able to do. ok. i know before i go to alex, you know, stilton berg was as well. what success has nato ever achieved? the former yugoslavia, they call that a success. okay. i'll alex see, you know, and looking at public opinion polls, particularly in the u. k, in the united states, when people are asked what they're most concerned about in their not prompted ukraine never makes the cut ever ever makes that cut here. this is in elite project . ok, and that's why my 1st question, the bushes talking about what, when, when do they get wake up to reality? because while publics are not particularly interested in this and only up to the point of inflation shortages, then they understand go ahead, alex. yeah, well i don't think that they'll ever wake up to reality even,

even in the event of defeat, they'll find some sort of unreason unrealistic excuse as to why, why, why it's coming to an end. you know, like, like yugoslavia, you know, maybe nato also considers libya success, but i, you know, they still haven't formed a coherent government. i the, the thing is, is that i, you know, you, the, this of the support for ukraine is, is i, it's, it's like a, it's a, it's a virtue signal it's, it's something that people can feel good about, but they are feeling the effects of it. and it's going to come back to bite them. you know, the, the u. k. government is in shambles and there is going to be a, in my view, a republican takeover in the united states. i come the med terms because people aren't willing to pay this. so called pu price hike up for you know, for something which is meaningless to them. and you know, it's, it's,

it's harmful to city citizens, civilians in, in the u. k. all across europe, the united states, and especially the civilians of ukraine. you look at this attack that ukraine did just the other day on this bridge over that i, i'm not quite sure how to pronounce it, but that a d n i e p r river the night. but maybe you can correct me on that. ah, and they used us supplied he mars to take out that bridge. that bridge wasn't serving a military purpose. it was a, they said that trucks weren't going over it. it was to damage for trucks. so it was just passenger vehicles of so there you know, the u. s. is supplying destruction in ukraine and at the same time destroying themselves and what's the effect their, their, their strengthening rushes hand. so eventually a defi will be admitted, but it won't be admitted honestly. and their boy, sammy, i've said many,

many times in this program is that the more the west helps ukraine, the smaller it gets. well, that is as being proven true. um, and you know, the, the, the, the, the sad fact of the matter is, is that diplomacy has never been but seriously taken. and that we did have a con, fab in istanbul, a month to the complex. and then from what we understand from reporting, the u. k j boris johnson. squash that and tony blanket has no interest at all talking about some how to end this conflict because i want to make it very clear to our viewers the record to only talk to the americans about this. now they're not going to talk to anybody in europe because there's nobody worth talking to europe any more about it. it shows the lack of leadership there. they shed at any kind of responsibility that their citizens will go after them. sergeant schultz won't be there for much longer guaranteed. go ahead and washington abortion. well, the russians have tried negotiating with the european twice already when it comes

to ukraine. date it was, there was the to 2014 january, 2014 power sharing agreement that was supposed to peacefully end the my don color revolution and the us backed and coordinated ukrainian. nationalists simply ignored it and took power by force. and then those very same nationalist when they tried to crush the rebellion in donnie, it's going to gone skin crimea by force and were defeated. then again turned to france and germany to broker a ceasefire. and that was the minced protocols. disease fire, which again they proceeded to completely ignore it. and what did the us do it sabotage these things that every step and the french and germans just went along with it and you know, mouth platitudes. so i don't blame the russians for saying that the french and german or germans are agreement incapable and they wish to speak to the manager, which is in this case washington. the only question is, who's actually in charge in washington? because job manifestly is not and you know, whoever tony blinking takes instructions from is,

is immediate because he's not engaging any sort of diplomacy. he's just engaging in fostering and propaganda. and obviously not having any effect whatsoever. but you know, anybody could see it if, if they just bother to truck. you know, daniel, isn't the voice brings up such a very good point. i think it needs to be reiterated. this conflict has been going on for 8 years. okay. well, through media won't talk about that. they won't talk about the 14000 people that died in the don bass. the result of this, they will talk about the blockade. they don't talk about all any of these things here. and that's why when i look at this, joseph beretta, the head of the use foreign policy. he said this is going to be decided on the battlefield. i mean, he's such a buffoon and you know what he's right on this one, because if here is no way to negotiate, nobody wants to come to the table. then the russians will say, when it's over, when it's over, when they did say it's a, it's over and it has nothing to do with any kind of arms or any other kind of overtures that come from the west. it's really a one way deal right now. daniel,

yeah, i mean, it is going to be decided on the battlefields and that's the problem for the west because the, the, the russian military effort started out slowly and haltingly. but it's picked up momentum since then. and now the advantage over the ukrainians is really quite clear and may be pouring in more more western weaponry like the, the high mars may may offset the process for a bit, but it won't be for long because is clear to the russian war machine will keep grinding on that russian power is, is overwhelming, and the ukrainians will be forced to, to back off to can see. so it was a big question is the big question is at once that reality becomes impossible for even washington just to defy what happens next. i mean, does, says, does nato call off it's,

it's 25 year march to the east. yeah. due to russian, russian pressure. and what will that do to nato and the you and what will that do to, to us a gemini, will there be any, any shred left of us control of the, of the global order, or will it fully fall apart? and if that, if the latter is the case, we are facing a, an epic change or one of the most profound transformations of the entire post war period. and daniel, it's over, you, crane with it has no strategic interest to europe or the united states. it's not a key security issue and i agree with you. we're at a pivotal moment here and it's because of hubris in um, neo liberal ideology rules based order or whatever that means. that's what it's all about gentlemen. i'm going to jump in here. we're going to go to

a short break it up to that short break. we'll continue our discussion on ukraine. supers they with art ah, ah ah ah ah .

hello john middle alex, she's just see i'm gonna let him get nobody but i just part of the language that he thought young real name is logical law school of college. cool. with on which yeah. is it with big enough feel? okay. that makes it says nice to put in the museum from bush and below that season . now she did the we have on the board with young at the did those with it just had that i don't, i don't bus a bus has been deal. this would not have happened if indeed o, as by them didn't push this agenda, which was with that because i'm yeah,

this bullshit on that i should need to. what about a nadia bit thought to get a new one up up in memphis is is what is okay to fill in this day with with mm ah welcome back. across stock. were all things are considered on peter bell to, to remind you we're discussing ukraine's future ah case, go back to alex in mexico. i daniel did a really good job of mapping out the implications of this conflict in how the world will move forward or move apart. um, because i see it as a paradigm shift here and i don't, there's no way going back. but it's not this little bit of time on the impact of

these of the sanctions here. famously, chancellor schultz of germany, i referred to him on this program, is sergeant schultz because he reminds me and sergeant schultz from hogan's heroes . huh. these are the impact on europe is profound. okay. and you know, irrespective what's going to happen, i don't see sanctions being lifted any time soon. the russians have been prepared for it. they've shown that they've been prepared for it and they're moving forward here. but i think the political implications for the european union are profound is well, and the only upside for washington in all of this i would say is that they've, they haven't had demonic control over europe. yea, what a victory that is a pirate, a victory, an empty victory. if europe is not, that doesn't have hyperbaric productivity, that it's not a competitive in the world. ok, i mean, so it's kind of a loser situation for europe and the political class. there's going to pay a very high cost. i really, truly believe that. go ahead, alex. well, i, i think that the goal for the united states and nato a structural change in russia. that's not going to happen. and to be quite frank,

i don't think that there will necessarily be structural change in in europe either . what if they're willing to fight this word to the last ukranian then i think that they are willing to see europe fall until they're there. they are the last one standing on. so i, i think that the only country that we're going to see structural change in is ukraine, which was the last thing that they wanted. but, but i do feel that i rather than a situation of structural change in europe, we're going to see a long term, slow detour, deterioration. so, so i don't, i don't, i think that you can call that a paradigm shift because it is obvious that the tides are turning. but i don't think that necessarily we're going to see people, you know, storm brussels. that's a good point. but i mean the paradigm,

let me give another example. the paradigm shift that i'm talking about, the boy, you know, just a barrel is a very, very upset that global media continues to follow, segregate, love it off the foreign minister here, and not himself. ok. i mean, his blog that he writes is just the gift that keeps on giving. it makes a complete buffoon out of himself here. but that's the, that, that's part of the paradigm shift that i'm talking about. the global south is not going along with, as they chose very clearly, the global south is not respect or fear importantly, the west. any more. that's part of the change i'm talking about. go ahead in washington. well, their centers to slog the basically to motto is that the that the western empire has lived by all these years. one is calculus. let them hate me so long as the fear me, which as you pointed out is no longer the case. now we were left with just hatred, and the 2nd one is fake until you make it, which is the, you know, the driving force of drifters of the world around. well, the griff is up there. they've been thinking it, they're not making it. the world has stopped fear, ink,

and continues to hate. and now you have a situation in which basically the fabled international community has been reduced to the u. s. europe and a handful of its allies around the globe. and the rest of the world is either neutral or pro russian. and this, this was not something that the west wanted to achieve. in fact, the opposite of what they wanted to achieve. i'm not, or if that was russia's plan all along. but we're, this is more, this is bigger than ukraine. first of all. secondly, when it comes to ukraine itself, though, it has to, it automatically has to choose between if survival as a country, good point is regime because this regime is going to see a dead and buried. that's right, daniel. natasha is going exactly where i wanted to go. i. we keep talking about ukraine, ukraine, ukraine. but what is ukraine now and what will it be? ok. this is a huge question. that's open ended right now. and the more western support we see,

the smaller it gets, and i'm not really sure how attractive the rum state would be. would it become a war to be you? and that would be part of the, ga, ga leesha, the deletion part of ukraine, which is full of some very, very nasty people. ok, and i personally, and i'm going to say it publicly. i don't see how to lensky survives this, and he doesn't have to fear the russians. he has to fear his inner circle. daniel. yeah, i mean, when we talk about the u. s. empire being over extended. i mean, what that means is it has extended itself into a sort of a nebulous border zone. and the ukraine, the word ukraine actually means a border zone. and the, the crane is structurally weak, big. and today it's sort of like, you know what, that which lies between russia and europe. it's free for centuries. it's been a, it's been a high wafer invaders traveling from central europe, central asia,

into europe and vice versa. and so there's no stability there. there's really no state there, there's no there there. and it's divided between the russian speaking east and south, and the, and the, the ukrainian speaking west around the city of the above. and that is indeed the center of a very nasty, ultra right form of national and it's just hard to imagine a viable state arising out of that. it's been a battle zone for years and likely will continue to be a battle down for years and the u. s, empire sort of thrust itself into the middle of this kind of nether world. yeah, and that's gonna stand the same way. i mean,

ask dana stands the border zone as well. always has always been on governor governor both. it's not so much a nation as a place where the other nations and, and the u. s. thrust itself into that completely thoughtlessly. and after 20 years of ended in disaster and something tells me the same thing is going to occur the grant. i absolutely agree with you, you know, it's one of the, one of the terrible things that happened as a result of the my don qu, is that of the, the people that came to power were espousing a, a nationalism that didn't have a nation. okay. it was in, it was a imaginary in them their own small circle of people in, in, in western ukraine. and they thrusted on to the rest of the country, which of course, but don bass in the crimea. and so we have nothing to do with this. we, we don't, and we don't agree with your definition of ukraine, your definition of what it means to be ukrainian. and they don't,

they didn't want to divorce themselves, who from the russian language wash and traditions russian history here. and this is what we've happened has happened here. they have thrust themselves, he used daniel's word on them to create ukraine that never existed in never will exist for the reasons that daniel just told us. go ahead, alex. well, before i get into that, really i quickly like to, i'd like to quickly circle back to our last point, you know, ukraine for because if it's corruption problems for the longest time, it was called the sick man of europe. but it's in an american fashion that you know where everyone's going bankrupt from the hospital bills. ah. and it really is because of what you said, the, this ultra nationalism, these people have been leading the policy agenda for more than 8 years now on and, and as who and said in february, holding the people of ukraine,

hostage to their, you know, neo nazi forthright. agenda, a 3rd reich agenda on. so i, i up, you know, it, the people of ukraine don't deserve this. yeah. i, as you stated before, the show wonderful. they're wonderful people. and i, and, you know, a, it could be a situation like berlin at some point because there is a real divide in the country. and eventually russia is going to have to keep pushing them back if they keep getting supplied with longer and longer range missiles. they're gonna have to push them back to a point where those missiles can't reach russia. understandably, that's, that's like, you know, imagine for a moment, if russia was sending a long range in her intercontinental ballistic missiles to mexico, we would, we would see where i live in the north become a once again, not part of the united states, as it's completely untenable and i think that i zelinski won't,

won't last through this. ah, but the real question is, is, is, is he going to be replaced by somebody who is even more alter nationalist stick at, at b, i at the, you know, at direction of the united states and nato negotiate at the, at the end of the day, who is going to take the blame, who's going to be the bag man? well, i mean, obviously the united states taxpayer is currently footing the largest part of the build, the european citizens, not the elite, are taking it on the chin as far as the economic fall out. russia, sort of, you know, funding the rebuilding of the destroyed east and south. the biggest losers are going to be people living in ukraine, hands down. and all of this destruction is completely senseless. because again, all of this could have been avoided. had there not been this insistence by the

collective west to create an entire russia, not just a non russia, but into russia right out of ukraine, rather than, you know, set up some sort of free trade community from, from the atlantic to the pacific. but there are some kind of, you know, centuries old, rooster phobia and hatred and mistrust of russia has, has compelled them to act like this. and now we're all watching the concept was put in the end. if we're seeing, i'm convinced that we're seeing a sort of a re run of the syracuse expedition of antiquity in which a powerful empires basically engineering its own ruin by engaging in the series of stupid wars and losing its power that way and never realizing what it had done until it was too late, and then we got we got 30 seconds finish off the program for us. daniel. the u. s. has gotten itself and really hot water and this is not going to end well for america, america is grossly over extended. i think america itself is,

is unstable and that this could be the start of a process of the unraveling of us power. that won't and until it reaches washington itself, well, that wouldn't be a very bad idea. i just would like it without violence. ok, that's what i want. i'm completely against violence here. but i truly believe this is all in the cards here. i. if people say things are going to be resolved in november, now they're not going to be resolved that other. then it's going to continue down this path there. it's all the time we have gentlemen, i want to thank my guess and wasn't in new york and in mexico. and i want to thank our viewers for watching us here. are the see you next time. remember across samples ah i get the bill girl. it's been

a, i think is 70 percent of even 80 percent of so be a be below for why should nate, if you say i want to approach and it means i want this best buy this one, me not a toyota. we say a boss luisel. rolon l a with a when i was shown seemed wrong. when i just don't hold any you have to shape out this thing becomes the african and engagement equals the trail. when so many find themselves worlds

apart, we choose to look for common ground. ah . ringback ready because she changed with me, that was a name, is us a forced national guido, which was obviously you still with someone to do, i don't but hold a call with national anthem, a campus

that the copier from wanted a working. mm. me for. well don't middle alexis, jesse columbia? no, not in columbia. nobody but i just bought a lego, the italian my real name is logical law school of college with the bridge, if at all which it is public, you fear to be a number. if you feel okay that make it go.