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hello and welcome to cross stop where all things are considered. i'm peter labelle . the one aspect about the ongoing conflict in ukraine that stands out most is media coverage. never in the history of corporate media has coverage been so biased and one sided. and it does not stop, they are questioning the standard narrative is akin to treason and subject to censorship and cancellation. ah. to discuss these issues and more, i'm joined by my guess, vladimir goldstein in capital. he is the chair of the department of slavic studies at brown university and in arsole we have one decent. he is a professor at the university of southeastern norway as well as author of the book, russo phobia propaganda and international politics. originally crossed across the fact that means you can jump any time you want and i would appreciate it. i would start out with one here in our slow, you know,

one of the things in looking at media coverage. and that's what i do for a living like cover on western media primarily. and you know, when it comes to the conflict in ukraine going on 5 months, you really don't really learn much about the conflict. instead they to, when they're trying to convince you how to feel about the conflict, there is a lacking, the context is lacking. i'm even geographical knowledge is pretty scant. and, and there's reliance upon boat magazine, a photo shops of the ukranian president and his wife. i mean in, that's my stressing how to feel. it is easier to get away without const contextualizing in an n, as a way to try to allay all the suffering that western publics are feeling. glen. well, what you're describing is a description of propaganda because a list have defined a just propaganda to large extent were conducing an audience by not relying on

rational arguments. so if you play, i'm stereotypes and ceilings, and obviously there's this build up to this baganda war. we're currently just follow russia games, which obviously was a great example of how ceilings kind of blurred out all of the fact of the matter. now obviously, countries, news probably going to some extent during war, especially about this is around this is because it's necessary to mobilize public concerns for a conflict. so this is why we say this during this time. so what are we going to do is build up their stereotypes, of course. what goes wrong, good versus evil. and if you accept this, there a time and all information comes through this through this prism, the fact that you said it doesn't really matter anymore because you're guiding something even well, it's not necessary. and,

and this is usually how you see it. again, it's a long history of there's a rush, it's always been seen as if you will, the other, you know, they have been buried star civilization. they've been the asians european this, you know, they're here in our liberal democracy. so this is how all information has to be filtered to making a big harry potter has story out of the news and this is problematic. most people can accept those stereotypes and get stuck with those emotions. don't look at the facts anymore. and then in my argument and one loses let me, which was interesting here i'm calling this program the phony war. and of course, this is a reference to the time when it's the, during the 2nd world war, after the war started in when nazi germany invaded poland. and before the invasion of france, it was called the phony war because there wasn't much going on particularly on the french front. but this, there is a real war going on. but the,

the propaganda that glen was referencing, and it's getting a bit sin because if the russians all their bad guys, why are we in the west suffering? they're not making a very compelling argument louder here. well, i would say we'd have to look at who is the old jam or prep organza, and it's clear that old journal propaganda is much less ukrainians where actually bear the bronsels of war and are being killed and suffering. so if they hear some reports from the ceo, if they look at the pictures and ski in that effected by that they know that their brothers or sisters, i mean, you know, cause a wounded or killed a wound and so on. but the gullible western public research to support this, a fronds and everything is united. everything's for school and be, is this kind of the, i desire to send money to give some kind of extra walk with me to the industrial

company. it's clear that sooner or later these narrative will keep their here very hard to reality on the ground. because you know, every time they tell the west all levels help, the brain isn't going to smash russia. you're great. i'm going to conquer this. and i says, i running out of their last m all you know, and it sooner late or even less than public i just with the green on the west of public will say, well, you tell us this, and now we hear that it ends out of the root is trying to get 70 old people in the army. now he says everyone from done by city just have to move away. something doesn't leak. and then you know, a western propaganda and propaganda will end up with a big on their face. and they, i think they trying to push on it as long as they jens, but in general, reality, you know, glen in there were kind of nerdy all 3 of us on this program because we appreciate

a history and geo politics. and we're from 3 different different different countries. but, you know, as an american, you know, uh, the post mortem of, of the, the ending of the war in southeast asia. my goodness at south vietnam government was really, really corrupt men. oh, i'm a year ago with a exit of afghanis and my goodness, that was a really corrupt to come from and. and now, before the conflict started of every 24th this year, ukraine was one of the most consider one of the most corrupt countries in the world . so, i mean, this is going to kind of come full circle as billions and billions of dollars are being forwarding to the country. money, military equipment, ammo. the whole works here. but just talk about corruption is, like i said in my introduction, almost treasonous. go ahead. on this before the war and you had to wait there need to be seal and making documentary documents

about you know, the horrible corruption in your grades, documentaries, about what they refer to as not said battalions, but now after the war began, we now see that this all became suddenly rational propaganda and said in a more, also calling approximate war and was also enough to get to counsel. but then of course, the old american political issue began to refer to as a proxy war in the media. so now it's okay. so it's difficult to follow, but again, this is a huge conformity. i mean, you have to choose between 2 positions. and this is often very artificial because of course, you can say you're opposed to the rational attack on ukraine because their supporting. but if you do, if that's your decision, also to conform to the whole narrative and this is a big rivalry between democracy versus terrorism. and that also makes china complexity well. but of course, the facts in this market,

it's kind of disappears because, you know, your government is supposed to be this near inspirational when beacon of democracy, you know, sometimes gets to new winston. sure, sure. and of course, it becomes non official because he comes when, if you want to talk about ca, polk, colfax, for example, the more strict corner laws against russia, speakers on ethnic russians binding the opposition party about the resting, the main opposition later or placing all neither control under the state, you know, these are objectively undemocratic and actions, but if you mention this fact, it becomes called rational propaganda. why not? sure? no, because now you're creating about it. i want to create a new government. so showing support is necessary and that's why it's very dangerous for this kind of propaganda goes and makes all our journalists in the

west into soldiers in this information works and you know which destroying our own trust in me, they would try to destroy our own institutions for, and, and if one end to this cause, like we should be able to say on the things such as, and, you know, if you want to convert ukraine into frontline against russia, this is not compatible with democracy. and this is why we see that you created marks, large extent, was snuffed out after 2014. and when you close to move you made into this new frontline. but again, we would, we don't talk about the facts. instead we have this move on to cause, you know, you have this, this emotional appeal would have been to soleski versus polluting, which has become the embodiment of evil. and then we don't have to discuss security interest. we don't have to discuss because is a good man versus evil now, and you pick your side, you know, blood of it when it, when glen was describing how the goal posts as it were, is changing. if,

if there's a guy amazing similarity to cove it, i mean when you can say something when you can say something, you can say something at one point. you can cancel the months later. it's common parlance. i mean it's, it's very interesting that kind of a trajectory, both cove it and that way we're allowed to talk about ukraine. i think, you know, what americans are good. it is a, each of the masses are manipulation messes and maybe learn from this experience. what i, he and all this is like a mock use them all over again. and i was using work for quite some time on until sound very. she is honest, voices in united states arose and say, there's a lot of you know, exchange you described and you are, you're creating a rec, less dangerous situation, which destroys our democracy, destroys our country. the same thing is happening here. i don't think if americans want to help ukraine, this is not the way to help you great by allowing one person band all the parties

that have been all employees and it just doesn't help me crazy. this is doesn't help anyone. any contact you through, you know, dialectics throw kind of challenges through some trying to improve. and just here in this, my, my classroom methods, it works for a while and americans know it and they use it and they use it on germany. they use it on to london, sweden. they manipulate it, but it's, people are commonsensical, people should suddenly the realize that this is not a fair description of the story. and the, because it's false, it does help. anyway. i'm glad you're on top of them with something called for an investigation of ukrainian oligarchy, which is very interesting because that would encompass the narrative before february 24th. there's corruption in ukraine and a lot of money in western money in goodwill. i think that, you know, you can say that for at least the part of some people, but that, you know, that is

a, again, i kind of creeping narrative. yeah. it is. yeah. remember the corruption, maybe because of so much money. we should have some oversight here around paul and he was, he was attacked mercilessly say, well vote for the money, but can we buy now where it's going and where would it? and i mean, he was just absolutely destroyed in the media. but now there's more and more talk. yeah, maybe we should have some kind of oversight here. you just have to know how to play the cues. i suppose glen real quick before we go to the break here. it would be there's going to be a major offensive most likely in ukraine, but it's going to be a russian one, not a ukrainian one. i don't know if western media is prepared to deal with that. no, i don't because i won't be able to point that out correctly before the main people were trying to convince western audiences, classifying the money and the weapons. i think that's what is the reason you need to keep the momentum going to keep the support going out. the core of this is to

say, you know, the russians are losing who i'm kind of seeing over the 5 months this perpetual claim about a year ago. and we have to go to a heartbreaking after that hard break. we'll continue our discussion some real new stay with our t ah ah, ah, ah ah, with

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a copy of a voice or a new domain with welcome back across the top where all things are considered, i get a little, this is the home addition to remind you, we're discussing some real news, the, the minutes go back to glen glen. you thought we had to go to the break. you were trying to make a point, please finish up saying that the continued support by the western public requires this promise victories, especially with this kind of cell sacrifice. so every week,

you know, we have this new story about ukraine, launching a spectacular context and you know, some catacombs to over to me then the reports that nothing comes out of this except for huge losses. and also we have to say about process losing much weekend. russia, losing in running out every week, soldiers in russia lost their morales and putting it, putting almost about to be toppled their rush economy floating. i mean, it's, it plays out all over again. and again, that number and i think comes out of it. so what it says with the story that you know, your grand st under dog, destroying the russian military brush just simply only targeting civilians of course. so, and this is where the emotional aspect comes in as well because you only focus on civilian that's on one side. but on the other side it can be mentioned and it goes

back to the idea. but if you, if you have some sympathy for an opposing side, then like around polls, you might be seen as a traitor, because now you're spreading propaganda because it's not the fact that the matter is whether or not you can term up enough sympathy for the right side, the real tragedy is that there isn't been a call or negotiations in peace. instead of taking a side note people, goodwill and powers that we have discovery, but you're not getting that. but when we were doing that, you know, all of the things that we're told to believe the russian economy is bailey, is sick, a, in the military, when things of what i'm going to last, the governments are balling in the west, the inflation is ripping energy crisis food banks and the u. k. all the things they're projecting on what's happening in russia is actually happening in real time

in the west. and you can't cover that because it is the lived experience of people when you got it bill up, you're not taking your cards. no profit is going to be one way or another. it's just expensive. go ahead. yeah, the same thing applies to the price of gasoline driving the carson on heating and cooling. so i think it is, you know, i think the rest and propaganda they can lie about decent places like, you know, ukraine 90 percent of the people. jennifer burns, a blue child or that. so it sounds all kind of music, all strange, but the lesson. but if you go to your own store and see the prices it is, it's collapsing and i think it's, it's an actually, it's a, it's a mistake of a, with an estimation or was there was a weakness in saying, in russia because they know i see it be, she's a, well,

we will kind of wrong about this thing over us and the guy, you know, but it, it, it just think about it. you are wrong, american gun horn. you want your 160 to succeed. you have to know your enemy. if you don't know your enemy, how can you do anything if you're just life is don't tell lies that chinese a giant on legs of clay in the rush is, doesn't go out. and then what will happen when you know, joe's what hitler was and why into his own people, well, will much the russian in today's and then what you know, they destroy the you, they just throw themselves. so i think it really people and she, and as a result of this lies and in her life to themselves as a dangerous thing. you know, plan in not only lines, but i think that it is a great deal of arrogance in play as well. because i'm there with the russians for pushback, from care. that's the story here. well i, i don't know what the military planning was. i don't know what that was all about. but there is this impression that these armchair generals that were into the

generals in wars that were lost by the way, by the west in the middle east, primarily. but they're, they're kind of trying to convince maybe themselves and the audience that the russians fight the same way as we do destroy all the infrastructure lives, something about iraq and destroy the water and destroying the electric, to destroy everything. and then you go in, that's not the case. so again, this is kind of arrogant projection of how they fight a war. everybody else does, which is not the case. if you are familiar with the facts on the ground, glen. yeah, well, what you mentioned curious, important because that's what you're kind of stuck on stuck kept for so long because it's in the beginning of the or, and of course russia, we're still in the troops outskirts. i'm hoping to get the concessions they wanted . and again, this was done by the weekend, however, dismissed in the work, but of course, the problem for the russians where they have this long,

unprotected supply lines, which made them very well. so this position, and this was at the starting point, every seems a different strategy. but again, the narrative snail reflects that keeler. i would say, you know, ukrainian talks are starting to see things or some time. and you know, so, you know, the mighty russian military machine has been destroyed by the playing. it's mostly have this story amongst mattress. you know, there goes the key will remember the airplane or just shut down all the russians. yeah. make island, you know, this way. you know, russians, you know, for the russian or worship, but there's also to be, it doesn't matter because the narrative still still space. they still have the science show the western union. and it also say so is this need to hold onto the narrative and this is also what's problematic. i've pointed out it's got forced to take this position was and so for example,

i'm personally horrified by what's happening in your credit is devastating. but you're saying, listen, we should have pushed towards political settlement, talk to the russians, at least, even if it doesn't start to dialogue now, to see where the possibility is for making these, well, that would be anti ukraine. and now i'm curious the pro ration because now i'm saying, well, if i wanted to make peace now with the craziness, that means, well, i have to make some confessions. and that man asking for an ukraine is to surrender . so you're not allowed to call for peace, that history is in this role. so and, and so you have, you have to take one decision which is the pro, is there one and with all the strange and efficient switch that doesn't necessarily make sense. so it's, it's very confusing and just one final notice it goes beyond the narrative. it's us, your general point that out and also implies manipulating the language. so what,

what thinks meant before? it's not even more so what's happening with the sanctions. what are the economic recession now hitting across the risk? well, us is always the by the administration is simply change the meaning of recession. there's nothing recession. this is what we saw. a mother was wrong, and the oldest soldier surrender, who also surrendered. it wasn't evacuation as it turned out when they put down their weapons and surrendered, and then the russian captivity, this was an evacuation. it was repeated across the western media. so we just, you know, change the language instead of, you know, to fit with american. it's is quite extraordinary. it's not good for us either pro russian on thought western are you bad for us in the west as well? you know, vitamin with one of the things i find very interesting is that because there is no dialogue, ok, lincoln in lab ross did speak, but a version of the readouts is talking about this prisoner exchange, which i'm for the interested parties. i'm sure it's very, very important,

but in the, in the, in the scheme of things, you know, it is a doesn't bode well for any time soon. the conflict in ukraine to come to an end. and i would, i would posit, because zalinski is not interested in the, the europeans have been cowed into silence. um, the russians will then they would, they'll say we don't have a partner, there's nobody competent to talk to in washington. they're all the phones. they don't really understand what they're doing. i'm the secretary of defense as we want . our plan is to leak in russia. i guess that's sending a signal to the kremlin. what do you know? what kind of been a locker to they have? and i would, i would posit then this conflict will come to an end, will come to an end when russians are ready for it to end. and i'd like to point out to everyone, this conflict will come to an end under russia's terms and time table when russia is come to the conclusion. i'm thinking about the 2 letters that were sent in december on december 17th, one,

the nato wanted the united states about russia. security guarantees. russia will determinant unilaterally, and they'll say they're done thoughts. yeah, i agree with you and i think that's, that's the damage on the ground and the western denied by in our separation. i was ordering a speech by introducing or all those things, but no sooner or later. that's how it will end. what is said about that to, to, to get there. a lot of people will be killed in an tremendous damage to the most basic democratic principles will be done. because basically, the behavior all blink blink, gen and bided. this is childish behavior, united states, nato. they were talking to sonya to russia. they were talking to, sorry, the lesser and invaded project. i guess they would go into sort of irrational. they would negotiate and they were concerned with the piece they were concerned with the freedom of speech. they were going to now, all of a sudden, you know, all of this conflict, they just suppressed the basic principles of us. and if you try to write something

on facebook, which goes against the narrative, bam, you know, type of counseling, one of the most popular a percentage is 70000000 people listen to him or know he's a declared ross of this child is behavior, which is it another with us children themselves, not only just, you know, fortune, you know, make millions of people in the slavic lands. but you know that they go to themselves, but that's what disturbing, you know, going on and on. i mentioned in my introduction about with ne, the risk of cancellation in this there has been in the asserted attempt to can, so all of russia russians, russian culture, russian history, the works ok, but i would pause in the west is self cancelling itself in many ways because the, the global south in china, they just, they, they're not on board, they will not get on board at the west, finds itself isolated, something that we're talking about language rush is isolated at the same time putting in la proper, traveling

a busy schedule. there's no global consensus against russia on this, and i would posit the west as isolating himself the global so no longer fears the west in doesn't respect the west anymore. luck last word goes to you. but i agree, and i think that this has been one of the major shock, say, here in the west, this again, this is a narrative that the whole world is united behind you in behind the west, a nato. there's not that many in the countries and all that, so according to the west, instead, it doesn't mean that they're supporting russia, just mean stuff. this is a proxy war between nato and russia. the cost, the cost of ukrainian sunday. they didn't want to pick a sign in this. i mean, it was a russian probably on this will. stephen argument of the pope, obviously there was a hole in the category of this. so it is, it is

a shame because this has been the strength of the wes, this being able to have the scope and this course and challenge established ideas and a thing like, it's no way someone watching us here. are you see you next time? remember? oh ah ah, a oh, when i was showing wrong, i just don't know. i mean, you have to figure out this thing becomes the advocate and engagement.

it was the trail. when so many find themselves worlds apart, we choose to look for common ground hulu, because she knew spencer with forced to muscle laquita, which is mostly due to still would you have a couple of related someone to do our number? is that a good time to process this to settle some of the different hours a talk with dar.