a stationary products in the board with a with hello and welcome to cross top where all things are considered on peter labelle. the one aspect about the ongoing conflict in ukraine that stands out most is media coverage. never in the history of corporate media has coverage been so biased,

one sided, and it does not stop. they are questioning the standard narrative is a kinder treason and subject to censorship and cancellation. ah, to discuss these issues and more, i'm joined by my guess vladimir goldstein, imperial, he is the chair of the department of slavic studies at brown university. and in arsole we have glenn neeson. he is a professor at the university of southeastern norway as well as author of the book, bruce, a phobia propaganda in international politics. originally crossed across that effect . that means you can jump any time you want, and i would appreciate it. i would start out with one here in our slow, you know, one of the things in looking at media coverage. and that's what i do for a living lie cover on western media primarily. and you know, when it comes to the conflict in ukraine going on 5 months, you really don't really learn much about the conflict. instead they to,

when they're trying to convince you how to feel about the conflict. there is a lacking that, that context is lacking. i'm even geographical knowledge is pretty scant and, and there's reliance upon vogue magazine, a photo shouts of the ukrainian president and his wife. i mean, in that seat of my stressing how to feel it is easier to get away without const contextualizing in an n. as a way to try to allay all the suffering that western publics are feeling, glen, well, what you're describing is a good description of propaganda. because we have defined a just propaganda to large extent losing an audience by not relying on rational arguments. so if you play, i'm stereotypes and ceilings, and obviously this is build up to the war we're currently just follow russia games, which obviously was a great example of how ceilings kinda blurred out all of the facts on the matter.

now obviously, countries use propaganda to some extent during war, especially, this is around this is because it's necessary to mobilize public consent for a conflict. so this is why we say this during this time. but this is what the names to do is build up their stereotypes. of course what goes wrong, good versus evil. and if you accept this, there a time and all information comes through this filter through this prism facts, as you said, it doesn't really matter anymore, because if you're guiding something even well, it was necessary. and, and this is how you see it. and again, it's a long history of there's a process always been seen as if you will, the other, and, you know, they've been buried, store civilization. they've been the asians most no authority or liberal democracy

. so this is how all information has to be filtered to making a big harry potter his story out of the news send. this is problematic because people can accept those stereotypes and get stuck with those emotions. don't look at the facts anymore. and then in my argument, then one loses let me, which, what's interesting here, i'm calling this program the phony war. and of course, this is a reference to the time when it's the, during the 2nd world war. after the war started in, when nazi germany invaded poland and before the invasion of france was called the phony war. because there wasn't much going on particularly on the french front. but this, there is a real war going on. but the, the propaganda that glen was referencing, and it's getting a bit sin because if the russian saw their bad guys, why are we in the west suffering? they're not making a very compelling argument louder here. well,

i would say we have to look at who is the object of propaganda. and it's clear that ojo propaganda is much less you. koreans were actually bear the bronsels of war and are being killed and suffering. so if they hear some reports from the ceo, if they look at the pictures and ski in that the effected by that they know that their brothers or sisters, i mean, you know, cause a wounded or killed a wound and so on. but though, of just as a gullible western public research to support this, a fraud that everything is united, everything's for school and be, is this kind of the, i desire to send money to give some kind of extra walk me to the industrial company . it's clear that sooner or later these narrative will hear very hard to reality on the ground. because you know, every time they tell the west all levels help the brain is,

i want to smash russia. great, i'm going to conquer this, and i says, i run it out of their last m all you know, and it sooner late than even less than public, not just a few green on the west of public will say, well, you tell us this, and now we hear that it ends out of the root is trying to get 70 old people in the army. now he says everyone from done by city just have to move away. something doesn't clique. and then, you know, a western propaganda and propaganda will end up with a big on their face and they, i think they trying to push on it as long as they jens, but in general, reality, you know, a glen in there. we were kind of nerdy. all 3 of us on this program because we appreciate a history and geo politics. and we're from 3 different different different countries. but, you know, as an american, you know, the post mortem of the ending of the war in southeast asia. my goodness at south

vietnam government was really, really corrupt men. oh, i'm a year ago with a exit of afghanistan. my goodness, that was a really corrupt to come from and. and now, before the conflict started of every 24th this year, ukraine was one of the most consider one of the most corrupt countries in the world . so i mean, this is going to kind of come full circle as billions and billions of dollars are being poured into the country. money, military equipment, ammo. the whole works here. but just talk about corruption is, like i said in my introduction, almost treasonous. go ahead. heads on this before this war and you had went down the seal and making documentaries, documents about, you know, the horrible corruption and your grades, documentaries, about what they refer to as nazi battalions. but now after the war began, we now see that this all became suddenly rational propaganda and said in the more

also calling a proxy war and was also enough to get your counsel. but then of course, the old american political issue told began to refer proxy were needed to know about this. okay? so it's difficult to follow. but again, this is a huge conformity because you have to choose between 2 positions. and this is often very artificial because of course, if you can say you're opposed to the russian type on ukraine because their supporting if you do, if that's your position, i also have to conform to the whole narrative. but this is a big rivalry between democracy versus terrorism. and that also makes china complexity well. but of course, the facts in this market, it's kind of disappears because, you know, so let's get government is supposed to be this near inspirational. beacon of democracy, you know, sometimes gets the new winston churchill. and of course,

it becomes non official because you can, when, if you want to talk about colfax, for example, the district court laws against russia, speakers on ethnic russians, binding the opposition party about the resting. that's the main opposition, later or placing all neither control under the state. you know, these are objectively undemocratic and actions. but if you mention this fact, it becomes called russia propaganda. why? she's not true or no, because now you're creating about how much you're creating the government. so showing support is less than necessary and that's why it's very dangerous for this kind of gotten across and makes all our journalists in the west into soldiers in this information works. and you know, which destroying our own trust in a meeting were trying to destroy our own institutions and the and if one end to this cause, like we should be able to say on the things such as. and you know,

if you want to convert ukraine into frontline against russia, this is not compatible with democracy. and this is why we see that you created marks, it's large extent was snapped out after 2014. and when you close to may be made into this new frontline, but again, we would, we don't talk about the facts. instead, we have this book articles, you know, you have this, this emotional appeal would have been to soleski versus polluting, which has become the embodiment of evil. and then we don't have to discuss security interest. we don't have to discuss because is a good man versus evil now, and you pick your side, you know, blood of it when it, when glen was describing how the goal posts as it were, is changing. this is there's a guy, amazing similarity to cove it. i mean, when you can say something, when you can say something, you can say something at one point. you can cancel the months later. it's common parlance. i mean it's, it's very interesting that kind of a trajectory both cove it in the way we're allowed to talk about ukraine. i

think, you know, what americans are good. it is a, each of the masses are manipulating masses and maybe learn from this experience. what i, he and all this is right in this market, use them all over again. and am i going to use and work for quite some time on do some very she is on this voice is in united states, arose and say, this is not of you know, exchange you describe when you are raising the rec less dangerous situation, which destroys our democracy destroys our country. the same thing is happening here . i don't think if americans want to help ukraine. this is not the way to help grain by allowing one person band all the parties that have been all employees. and this is that the help a great this is doesn't help anyone, any contact you through, you know, a directive through kind of challenges through. so trying to improve and just here

in this, my kind of my classroom methods, it works for a while. americans know that, and they use it and they use it on germany. they use it on to london, sweden as a manipulated, but it's a common sensical people should, should realize that this is not a fair description of the story. and because it's false, it does help well, in planning on top of them with something called for an investigation of ukrainian oligarchy. which is very interesting because that would encompass the narrative before february 24th. there's corruption in ukraine and a lot of money in western money in goodwill. i think that, you know, you can say that for at least in the part of some people, but that, you know, that is the day again, that kind of creeping narrative. yeah. it is, yeah, i remember the corruption maybe because of so much money. we should have some oversight here around paul and he was he was attacked mercilessly. it's like, well vote for the money, but can we find out where it's going and where would it?

and i mean, he was just absolutely destroyed in the media, but now there's more and more talk. yeah. maybe we should have some kind of oversight here. you just have to know how to play the cues. i suppose glen real quick before we go to the break here. would be there's going to be a major offensive most likely in ukraine, but it's going to be a russian one, not a ukrainian one. i don't know if western media is prepared to deal with that. i don't know, i don't because i won't be able to point that out correctly before the main people who are trying to convince is to western audience a system, classifying the money and the weapons. i think that's for this reason, do you need to keep the momentum going to keep the support going out? the core of this is to say, you know, the greens are winning, thrushes are losing who i'm kind of seen over the 5 months this perpetual claim a gland. we have to go to a hard break, and after that hard break, we'll continue our discussion, some real estate with archie. ah,

ah, i look forward to talking to you all. that technology should work for people. a robot must obey the orders given by human beings, except where such order is a conflict with the 1st law show your identification. we should be very careful about artificial intelligence. at the point, obviously is to create trust rather than fear a job with artificial intelligence. real somebody with a robot less protective phone existence, with a

mr. absolute mccullough with develop the world. whereas with local union, with a little fingers with me on that with you to wind up with shock, because usually i'm not sure somebody who can watch some stuff with them. we filled up with all the like when somebody wrote up with to deal with with a,

with that it was up here at the office with, [000:00:00;00] with with welcome back across stock where all things are considered. i get a little, this is the home addition to remind you. we're discussing some real news, the, the minutes go back to glen glen before we had to go to the break. you were trying to

make a point. please finish up. you know, sort of thing. continued support by the western public requires this promise victories, especially with this kind of self sacrifice. so every week, you know, we have this new story about ukraine, launching a spectacular context and you know, some kind of go over the reports that nothing comes out of this except for 2 years losses. and also we have to say that process losing weekend, rush us, loosen in a running on every week. soldiers in russia lost their morales and putting it sit here putting it's almost about to be toppled. the russian economy floating. i mean it's, it plays out all over again and again that number, anything comes out of it. so again, it's, it's with the store that's, you know, you to, under dog destroying the russian military brush. a simply only targeting civilians of course. so, and this is where the emotional aspect comes in as well. i mean,

the only focus on civilian that's on one side. but on the other side it can be mentioned, and it goes back to the idea that if you, if you have some sympathy for an opposing side, then like around paul, you might get enough trade or because now you're spreading propaganda. you saw the fact that matter is whether or not you can draw up the not the sympathy for the right side. the real tragedy is that there isn't been call or to go. she, agents in peace instead of taking a side people but will and powers that we have in this company. but you're not getting that. but what we're doing is that, you know, all of the things that we're told to believe the russian economy is failing. ms. sick, a low morale in the military, when things are going to last, the governments are balling in the west,

the inflation is ripping energy crisis food banks and the u. k. all the things they're projecting on what's happening in russia is actually happening in real time in the west. and you can cover that because that is the lived experience of people . when you got a bill up, you're not taking your cards. no propaganda is going to convince you one way or another. it's just expensive. go ahead. yeah, the same thing applies to the price of gasoline, driving the cars and you know, heating and cooling. so i think it is, you know, i think the rest and propaganda, they can lie about decent places like, you know, ukraine 90 percent of the people. jennifer burns, a blue child or so it sounds all kind of music strange by the lesson. but if you go to your own store and see the prices it is, it's collapsing and i think it's, it's an actually, it's a, it's a mistake of

a weston estimation or what there was a weakness in saying in russia because they know i see it in be she said, well, we will kind of wrong about the strength over us and the guy, you know what made it. just think about it. you are all american gun hor you want your 160 to succeed. you have to know your enemy. if you don't know your enemy, how can you do it? if you're just life is, don't tell lies that chinese, a giant on a legs of clay, in the rushes or the gl absent today, then what will happen when you know joe's what hitler was and why it was his own people? well, well, much the russian in today's and then what, you know, they just throw the you, they just throw themselves. so i think it will keep on seeing as a result of this lies and inner life to themselves. that's a bit dangerous thing. you know, glen and not only lies, but i think it is a great deal of arrogance in play as well because i'm there with the russians for pushback, from care. that's the story here. well i,

i don't know what the military planning was. i don't know what that was all about, but there is this impression that these armchair generals that were and generals and wars that were lost by the way, by the west in the middle east, primarily. but they're, they're um, trying to convince maybe themselves and the audience that the russians fight the same way as we do destroy all the infrastructure, lose something about the iraq and destroy the water and destroying the electric, to destroy everything. and then you go in, that's not the case of the, again, this kind of arrogant projection of how they fight a war. everybody else does, which is not the case. if you are familiar with the facts on the ground, when yeah, well why don't you mention how important? because that's a narrative. what you're kind of stuck on stuck kept for so long because in the beginning of the or, and of course russia, we're still in the troops outskirts, i'm hoping to get the concessions they wanted. and again,

this was done by the weekend, however, dismissed in the work, but of course the problem for the russians where they had this long, unprotected supply lines, which made them very well. so the amanda disposition and this was at the starting point, the same thrust. actually there a different strategy. but again, the narrative snail reflects kimura, which say, you know, ukrainian talks are starting to see things. there are some time and you know, so, you know, the mighty russian military machine has been destroyed by the playing. it's also have the stories amongst mattress. you know, there goes the key will remember the airplane or just shut down all the russians. guy. yeah. make island, you know this way, you know, russians for the rest and always worship also to be it doesn't matter because the narrative still still space. they're still having the science show to the western, you know, in awesome say,

so is this need to hold onto the narrative and this is also very problematic. i pointed out it's got forced to take this position was and you know, so for example, i'm personally horrified by what's happening and ukraine is devastating, but you're saying listen, we should push towards political settlement, talk to the russians, at least, even if it doesn't start to dialogue now to see where the possibility is for making peace. well, that would be anti ukrainian. now i'm curious pro russian because now i'm unethical . it's saying, well, if i wanted to make peace now with your credit, if that means, well, i have to make some confession. so not being asking for an ukraine is to surrender . so you're not allowed to call for peace that history in this role. so and, and so you have, you have to take one of the fish, which is the pro esther on and with all the strange and efficient switch that doesn't necessarily make sense. so it's,

it's very confusing and just one final notice it goes beyond the narrative. it's george all pointed out that also implies manipulating the language. so what thinks met before? it's not even more so what's happening with the sanctions or the economic recession now hitting across the west. well, us or so with the, by the administration is simply changed the meaning of recession. there's nothing recession. this is what we saw. a mother was wrong, and the oldest soldier surrendered, who also surrendered. it wasn't evacuation as it turned out when they put down their weapons and surrendered, and then the russian captivity. this was an evacuation that was repeated across the western media. so we just changed the language instead of you know, to fit with american it's is quite extraordinary and it's, it's not good for us either is not pro russian on far west and are you, this is bad for us in the west as well. you know, vitamin with one of the things i find very interesting is that because there is no

dialogue, ok, lincoln in lab ross did speak, but for the readouts is talking about this prisoner exchange, which i'm for the interested parties. i'm sure it's very, very important. but in the, in the, in the scheme of things, you know, it is, it doesn't bode well for any time soon. the conflict, the in ukraine to come to an end. and i would, i would posit, because zalinski is not interested in the, and the europeans have been cowed into silence from the, the russians will then they would, they'll say we don't have a partner, there's nobody competent to talk to in washington. they're all the phones, they don't really understand what they're doing. i'm the secretary of defense as we want. our plan is to leak and russia, i guess that's sending a signal to the kremlin. what do you know? what kind of been a locker they have? and i would, i would posit then this conflict will come to an end, will come to an end when russians are ready for it to end. and i'd like to point out to everyone,

this conflict will come to an end under russia's terms in time table. when russia is come to the conclusion, i'm thinking about the 2 letters that were sent in december on december 17th, when the nato went to the united states about russia, security guarantees, russia will determinant unilaterally. and they'll say they're done thoughts. yeah, i agree with you and i think that's, that's the damage on the ground. and there weston denied by in our separation. i was ordered to a speech by, you know, or use in or all those things, but the sooner or later that's how it will and what is said about that to, to, to get there. a lot of people will be killed in an tremendous damage to the most basic democratic principles will be done. because basically, the behavior all blink blink. shannon bided. this is childish behavior. united states, nate, are they were talking to sonya to russia. they were talking to, sorry, the last one is invaded a project. i guess they were talking to some of us are they, when you were she, they were concerned with these. they were concerned with the freedom of speech.

they were going to now, all of a sudden, you know, over this conflict they just suppressed the basic principles of us. and if you try to write something on facebook, which goes against the narrative, bam, you know, type of counseling, one of the most popular a, to me for some of his 70000000 people listen to him or know he's a declared russian is this child is behavior which is another u. s. children themselves, not only just, you know, fortune, you know, make millions of people in the slavic lands. but you know, they go to themselves. but that's what disturbing, you know, glenna and on i mentioned in my introduction about with a, the risk of cancellation. in this, there has been in the asserted attempt to count so all of russia russians, russian culture, russian history, the works ok, but i would pause in the west is self cancelling itself in many ways because the, the global south in china, they just, they, they're not on board, they will not get on board at the west,

finds itself isolated. something that we're talking about language rush is isolated at the same time. putting in lab robert, traveling a busy schedule, there's no global consensus against russia miss. and i would posit the west is isolating, and so they go sell no longer fears the west and doesn't respect the west anymore. luck last word goes to you. but i agree. and i think that this has been one of the major shocks here in the west is such a narrative that the whole world is united behind you, behind the west islip, of nato. not that many in the countries and all that according to the west. instead, it doesn't mean that they're supporting russia, just mean stuff. this is a proxy war between nato and russia at the cost, the cost of ukrainian sunday. they didn't want to pick aside in this. i mean,

everyone's around probably on this will stephen argument of the po, obviously a hole in the category of the system. so it is a shame because this has been the strength of the west, is being able to have this open discourse and challenge established ideas. and a way someone watching a see already see you next time. remember oh ah ah ah

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