go out with being a by mutual a short time with hello and welcome to cross stock where all things are considered on peter labelle. the one aspect about the ongoing conflict in ukraine that stands out most is media coverage. never in the history of corporate media has coverage been so biased, one sided, and it does not stop. they are questioning the standard narrative is akin to treason and subject to censorship and cancellation

ah, a to discuss these issues and more i'm joined by my guess, vladimir goldstein in capitol. he is the chair of the department of slavic studies at brown university. and in arsole we have glenn neeson. he is a professor at the university of southeastern norway as well as author of the book . bruce, a phobia propaganda in international politics, originally crossed across it. a fact that means you can jump any time you want. and i would appreciate it, i had started out with land here in our slow, you know, one of the things in looking at media coverage. and that's what i do for a living lie cover on western media primarily. and you know, when it comes to the conflict in ukraine going on 5 months, you really don't really learn much about the conflict. instead they to, when they're trying to convince you how to feel about the conflict, there's a lacking that the context is lacking. i'm even geographical knowledge is pretty

scant. and, and there's reliance upon vogue magazine, a photo shots of the ukranian president and his wife. i mean, in that state of my stressing how to feel it is easier to get away without const contextualizing in an n. as a way to try to allay all the suffering that western publics are feeling, glen. well, what you're describing is a description of propaganda because a list have defined a propaganda to large extent were conducing an audience by not relying on rational arguments. so if you play on stereotypes and feelings, and obviously there's this build up to this or began the war, we're currently just russia games, which obviously was a great example of how ceilings kind of blurred out all of the facts of the matter . now obviously, countries, news propaganda to some extent,

but we see during war especially that this is around this is because it's necessary to mobilize public consent for a conflict. so this is why we say this during this time. but this is what we got to do is build up your stereotypes. of course, what goes wrong, good versus evil. and if you accept this stereotype and all information comes through this, through this prism fax, us, you said that it doesn't really matter anymore because you're guiding something even well. it was necessary and, and this is how you see it. again, it's a long history of, there's a russia, it's always been seen as if you will, the other and, you know, they've been buried store civilization. they've been that asians, you know, here and sort of liberal democracy. so this is how all information has to be filtered to making a big harry potter has story out of the news send. this is problematic because

people can accept those stereotypes and get stuck with those emotions. don't look at the facts anymore. and then in my argument, then one loses let me, which was interesting here i'm calling this program the phony war. and of course, this is a reference to the time when it's the, during the 2nd world war, after the war started in when nazi germany invaded poland. and before the invasion of france, it was called the phony war because there wasn't much going on particularly on the french front. but this, there is a real war going on. but the, the propaganda that glen was referencing, and it's getting a bit sin because if the russian saw their bad guys, why are we in the west suffering? they're not making a very compelling argument louder here. well, i would say we have to look at who is the object of propaganda, and it's clear that old propaganda is much less you koreans well actually bear the

bronsels of war and are being killed and suffering. so if they hear some reports from the ceo, if they look at the pictures and ski in that effected by that they know that they're brothers or sisters. i mean, you know, cause a wounded or killed a wound and so on. but though, of just as a gullible western public, there's a test to support this, a fraud that everything is united, everything's for the school and be, is this kind of the, i desire to send money to give some kind of extra walk through me to the industrial company, it's clear that sooner or later these narrative will keep their here very hard to reality on the ground. because you know, every time they tell the west all levels help, the brain isn't going to smash russia. you're great, i'm going to conquer this. and i says, i running out of their last m all you know,

and it sooner late than even less than public, not just a few green on the western public will say, well, you tell us this, and now we hear that it ends out of the root is trying to get 70 old people in the army. now he says everyone from done by city just have to move away. something doesn't clique. and then you know, a western propaganda and propaganda will end up with a big on their face. and they, i think they trying to push on it as long as they can. but in kennesaw reality you know, the glen, it, that we were kind of nerdy all 3 of us on this program because we appreciate the history and geo politics. and we're from 3 different different different countries . but, you know, as an american, you know, the post mortem of the ending of the war in southeast asia. my goodness at south vietnam government was really, really corrupt. then, a year ago with the exit of afghanistan. my goodness, that was

a really corrupt to come from. and now before the conflict started of every 24th this year, ukraine was one of the most considered one of the most corrupt countries in the world. so, i mean, this is going to kind of come full circle as billions and billions of dollars are being forwarding to the country. money, military equipment, ammo. the whole works here. but just talk about corruption is, like i said in my introduction, almost treasonous. go ahead. ahead on this before this war and you had the, you know, a western you down the ceiling making documentary, some in documentary about the horrible corruption in your credit. your documentary, some also what they were referred to as nazi battalions. but now after the war began, and we now see that this all became suddenly russian propaganda and to say it in the more also calling a proxy war was also enough to get your council. but then of course,

the old american political issue began to refer to as a proxy or in the media. somehow it's, it's ok, so it's difficult to follow. but again, this is the huge conformity. i mean, you have to choose between 2 positions, and this is often very artificial because of course, you can say you're opposed to the russian attack on the crane because they're, you know, supported by. if you do it, your decision also have to conform to the whole narrative and big rivalry between democracy versus a tyrann is and then that also makes china complexity of them. but of course, the facts in this market, it's kind of disappears because, you know, government is supposed to be this near inspirational. and beacon of democracy, you know, sometimes gets the new winston sure. shops. and of course, it becomes non official because you can, when, if you want to talk about comp hawk, colfax, for example, the district court laws against russia,

speakers on ethnic russians, binding the opposition party about the resting. and that's the main opposition, later or placing all neither control under the state. you know, these are objectively undemocratic and actions above if you mention this fact if it comes called russia propaganda, she's not true or no, because now you're creating doubt about the korean government. so showing support, it's less than necessary and that's why it's very dangerous. this began because it makes all our journalists in the west into soldiers in this information worked and stowing our own trust in me. they were trying to destroy our own institutions. and it's one of enter this conflict, we should be able to say on the things such as and you know, if you want to convert ukraine into frontline against russia, this is not compatible with democracy. and this is why we see that you created the

marks. it's a large extent was snuffed out after 2014 when you moved to made into this new sometime. but again, we will, we don't talk about the facts and then we have this book articles, you know, you have this. yeah. yeah, always this emotional appeal would have been landscape versus put in which has become the embodiment of evil. and then we don't have to discuss security interest . we don't have to discuss because there's a good versus evil now. and if your silence, i'm glad of it. when it is, when glen was describing how the goal posts, as it were with this change in this is there's a guy, amazing similarity to cove it leave. when you can say something when you can say something. but you can say something at one point, you can cancel the months later. it's common parlance. i mean, it's a, it's very interesting the kind of a, a trajectory both covered. and that way we were allowed to talk about ukraine. i think, you know, what americans are good, it is a,

each of the masses are manipulating masses and maybe learn from this experience. what i, he and all this is like a mock use them all over again. and am i going to use and work for quite some time on do some very she is on this. the voices in the space arose and say, this is lot of you know, exchange you described and you are, you're creating a rec, less dangerous situation, which destroys our democracy, destroys our country. the same thing is happening here. i don't think if americans want to help ukraine, this is not the way to help you great by allowing one person band all the parties that have been all employees and it just doesn't help me crazy. this is doesn't help anyone. a contact you through, you know, dialectics through kind of challenges through some trying to improve. and just here in this, my, my classroom methods, it works for a while and americans know it and they use it and they use it on germany. they use

it on t lines and sweden, they manipulate it, but it's a common sensical people should. generally the realize that this is not a fair description of the story and the, because it's false, it does help anyway. well, i'm glad you're on top of them with something called for an investigation of ukrainian oligarchy, which is very interesting because that would encompass the narrative before february 24th. there's corruption in ukraine and a lot of money in western money in goodwill. i think that, you know, you can say that for at least in the, in the part of some people, but that, you know, that is the day again, that kind of creeping narrative. yeah. it is. yeah. remember the corruption, maybe because of so much money. we should have some oversight here around paul and he was, he was attacked mercilessly say, well vote for the money, but can we find out where it's going and where would it? and i mean, he was just absolutely destroyed in the media. but now there's more and more talk.

yeah, maybe we should have some kind of oversight here. you just have to know how to play the cues. i suppose, glenn, real quick before we go to the break here. would be there's going to be a major offensive, most likely him ukraine, but it's going to be a russian one, not a ukrainian one. i don't know if western media is prepared to deal with that. i don't know, i, i don't because well let me go to point that out correctly before the main people were trying to convince the western audience a system classified of money on the weapons. i think that's for this reason, do you need to keep the momentum going to keep the support going out? the core of this is to say, you know, the greens are winning brushes are losing. who i'm kind of seeing over the 5 months this perpetual claim that i think you're going to have to go to a hard break in after that hard break. we'll continue our discussion, some building, stay with our t. ah, ah,

ah. no nation, no nation has ever done anything like it in all history. with

whose welcome back to cross dog were all things are considered. i'm peter labelle. this is the home addition to remind you were discussing some real news. ah me, let's go back to glen glen before we had to go to the break. you were trying to make a point. please finish up saying that the continued support by the western public requires this promise victory,

especially with this kind of fell sacrifice. so every week, you know, we have this new story about ukraine, launching a spectacular conference and you know, some kind of go over the media and the reports that nothing comes out of this except for huge losses. and also we have to say about process losing weekend. the russia losing in are running on every week, soldiers in russia and lost their morales and put it sit here, put in, it's almost about to be tough. the russian economy, if imploding, i mean it is, it plays out all over again. and again, that number, and i think comes out of this. so what are going to tips with the store? that's, you know, you're going to under dog destroying the russian military process, simply only targeting civilians of course. so, and this is where the emotional aspect comes in as well, because the media only focus on civilian that's on one side. but on the other side it can't be mentioned. and it's, you know, goes back to the idea. but if you,

if you have some sympathy for an opposing side, then like around paul, you might be a traitor because now you're spreading propaganda because it's not the fact that matter is whether or not you can draw up enough sympathy for the right side. the real tragedy is that there isn't been a call or negotiations in peace. you know, instead of taking a side note, people will empower so that we have that discount. but you're not getting that when we were doing all of the things that were told to believe the rest of the economy is failing. ms. sic low morale in the military when things the governments are bawling in the inflation is for rip big energy crisis. food banks in the u. k. all the things they're projecting on what's happening in russia is actually happening in real time in the west. and you can't

cover that because that is the lived experience of people. when you got it, bill up, you're not taking your cards. no propaganda is going to be one way or another. it's just expensive. go ahead. yeah, the same thing applies to the price of gasoline, driving the cars and you know, on heating and cooling. so i think it's, it's a paradox is there are things the rest and propaganda. they can lie about decent places like, you know, ukraine, 90 percent of the people jennifer around a bar moves all blue chow, all these. so it sounds all kind of music. all strange but russian. but if you go to your own store and see the prices it is, it's collapsing and i think it's, it's an actually, it's a, it's a mistake of a weston estimation or was there was a weakness in staying in russia because they know i see doing the baby, she's a well, we will kind of wrong about the strength over us in the car, you know,

but they just think about it. you are wrong, american gun horn. you want your 160 to succeed. you have to know your enemy. if you don't know you and i mean, how can you do anything if you're just life is i will tell you a lie is that chinese, a giant on legs of clay, in the rush, is just to collapse in today. then what will happen when you know joe's what hitler was and why into his own people well, will much the russian in today's and then what you know, they destroy the you destroy themselves. so i think we keep on seeing as a result of this wise and, you know, life to themselves as a dangerous thing. you know, glen in, not only lines, but i think it is a great deal of arrogance in play as well. because there, the russians were pushed back from care. that's the story here. well i, i don't know what the military planning was. i don't know what that was all about. but there is this impression that these armchair generals that were into generals

in wars that were lost by the way, by the west in the middle east, primarily. but they're, they're um, trying to convince maybe themselves in the audience that the russians fight the same way as we do destroy all the infrastructure, lose something about iraq and destroy the water and destroying the electric, to destroy everything. and then you go in, that's not the case. so again, this kind of arrogant projection of how they fight a war. everybody else does, which is not the case. if you are familiar with the facts on the ground, glen, i want to mention important because that's what you're kind of stuck on stuck kept for so long because in the beginning of the or, and of course, russia who stole is the troops outskirts. i'm hoping to get the concessions they wanted. and again, this was done by the weekend, however, dismissed in the work. but of course the problem for the rest of this long, unprotected supply lines, which made them very well. so this position,

and this was at the starting point to everything that are in different strategy. but again, the narrative snail reflects that keeler. i would say, you know, ukrainian checks are starting to see things or some time. and you know, so, you know, the mighty russian military machine has been destroyed by the cranium, mostly have the stores a month, you know, mattress, you know, there goes the key will remember the airplane or just shut down all the russians. guy. yeah. make island, you know this though, you know, russian, you know, for the rest and always worship also to be, it doesn't matter because the narrative still still space to still have the science show. and so the western, you know, in awesome say, so is this need to hold onto the narrative and this is also very problematic. i've pointed out you've got forced to take this position and you know, so for example,

i'm personally horrified by what's happening in your credit is devastating, but you're saying listen, we should push towards political settlement, talk to the russians, at least, even if it doesn't start to dialogue now to see where the possibility is for making these well, that would be anti ukraine. and now i'm curious the pro ration because now i'm saying, well, if i wanted to make peace now with the credit, if that means well, if they have to make some confessions. and that man asking for an ukraine is to surrender. so you're not allowed to call for peace that is treating this as well. so, and, and so you have, you have to take one decision which is the pro, is there one and with all the strange and efficient switch that doesn't necessarily make sense. so it's a, it's very confusing and just one final notice it goes beyond the narrative. it's us, your general point that out. that also implies manipulating the language. so what,

what thinks meant before? it's not even more so what's happening with the sanctions. what are the economic recession now hitting across the west? well, us is always the by the administration is simply change the meaning of recession. there's nothing recession. this is what we saw. a mother was wrong, and the oldest soldier surrender, who also surrendered. it wasn't evacuation as it turned out when they put down their weapons and surrendered and ended up in the russian captivity. this was an evacuation. it was repeated across the western media. so we just changed the language. instead of, you know, to fit with american, it's is quite extraordinary. it's not good for us either is not pro russian on far west. and are you bad for us in the west as well? you know, vladimir with one of the things i find very interesting is that because there is no dialogue a blanket in love, roth did speak but a verb and that the read outs is talking about this prisoner exchange, which i'm for the interested parties. i'm sure it's very, very important,

but in the, in the, in the scheme of things, you know, it is a doesn't bode well for any time soon. the conflict in ukraine to come to an end. and i would, i would posit, because you have zalinski is not interested in the, and the europeans have been cowed into silence. um, the russians will then they'll say, we don't have a partner, there's nobody competent to talk to in washing came there. all the phones they don't really understand what they're doing. the secretary of defense is we want our plan is to leak and russia. i guess that's sending a signal to the kremlin. what do you know? what kind of been a locker they have? and i would, i would, closet, then this conflict will come to an end. we'll come to an end when russians are ready for it to end. and i'd like to point out to everyone. this conflict will come to an end under russia's terms and time table when russia is come to the conclusion . i'm thinking about the 2 letters that were sent in december on december 17th,

when the nato wanted the united states about russia. security guarantees, russia will determinant unilaterally, and they'll say they're done thoughts. yeah, i agree with you or i think that's, that's the damage on the ground. and the weston denied by in our separation. i was ordered to speech by, you know, or use in or all those things, but no sooner or later. that's how it will and what is said about that. to do it to get there. a lot of people will be killed in an tremendous damage to the most basic democratic principles will be done. because basically the behavior all blink blink, gen and bided. this is childish behavior, united states, nato. they were talking to sonya to russia. they were talking to, sorry, the answer in waited a project, i guess they were talking to sort of, as i said, they would negotiate and they were concerned with the piece they were concerned with the freedom of speech. they were going to now, all of a sudden, you know, over this conflict they just suppressed the basic principles. oh yes, it was,

you know, tried to write something on facebook which goes against the narrative. bam, you know type of couse and one of the most popular a percentage is 70000000 people listen to him or know he's a class today. this child is behavior, which is it. in other words, u. s. children themselves, not only just, you know, fortune, you know, make millions of people in the slavic lands, but, you know, they go to themselves, but that's what disturbing, you know, going on and on. i mentioned in my introduction about with a, the risk of cancellation. in this there's been an asserted attempt to can, so all of russia russians, russian culture, russian history, the works ok. but i would pause in the west is self cancelling itself in many ways because the, the global south in china, they just, they, they're not on board, they will not get on board. and the, the west finds itself isolated. something that we're talking about language. rice is isolated at the same time putting in law proper travelling,

a busy schedule. there's no global consensus against russia on this. and i would posit the west is isolating himself that the global cell no longer fears the west and doesn't respect the west anymore. luck last word goes to you. but i agree. and i think that this has been one of the major shock. so here in the west this, you know, again, this is a narrative that the whole world is united behind you in the west to iceland, a nato. there's not that many this with countries and all that. so according to the west, instead, it doesn't mean that they're supporting russia, just mean stuff. this is a proxy war between nato and the russia, the cost, the cost of ukrainian sunday. they didn't want to pick a sign in this. i mean, it was a russian probably on this will. stephen argument of the pope, obviously there was a hole in the category of the system. so it is

a shame because this has been the strength of the wes, this being able to have this group and this course and challenge established ideas and a, i think, i guess no way someone watching us here are you see you next time? remember? oh ah ah, ah, who is the aggressor today i'm authorized to disco, strong sanctions. today russia is the country with the most sanctions imposed

against it. a number that's constantly growing up in your future list. of course seniors you speak on the bill in your senior, mostly mine the we're, we're ship, we're banding all in ports of russian oil and gas. who do i, where you're suffering of high. i know they plenty of holes with info. let me know. we're pretty good regarded joe, by imposing these sanctions on russia. you has destroyed the american economy. so there's your boomerang self. ah, the question you spent with forced to marceau career, which is mostly due to to room and you have

a limit controller related stuff when you do or not. but could, as milligan see to me fastest on this, instead of giving dollars not forms to write cheat, ah, a, some had already done with national anthem comp with them. and also of course i could tease digits from okay. and yet the still to copy from wanted to see that as the moisture ah again what you don't me? i don't blame you jack. i'll walk ah oh.