a group when you, when you see him with the school some delusion. look, a little book with welcome to was a part of the end of colonialism is usually celebrate as one of the few silver linings of the 2nd world war which may be explicitly economic and political subjugation of one, peopled by another, not only logistically challenging, but also morally reprehensible and we have,

if we look at the countries ability to pursue their own paths and make decisions, surely in the interests of the people have we authentically departed from the pith helmet. well to discuss that, i'm now joined by sure. he does that as a professor at the institute of business management in karachi, pakistan professor is great to talk to you and great to welcome you in law school because we don't get too many foreign visitors then. now you come from pakistan and rich, recently went through the change of leadership that some improving former prime minister attributed to your country's intention to win itself off western influence . is that something that you buy the explanation that you buy and do you think that's still the intention of pakistan both it's leadership, it's current leadership. i'm the people when i think this is board, the former prime minister has been saying, but i also feel he had these 3 and

a half years when he was the prime minister. i think he should have used that dame very effectively to forge closer relationship with the russian federation and read the people's republic of china and other regional countries. but unfortunately, i was not very happy with the piece of progress that was going on with the, the relationship between these countries. i, for myself, i have been, you know, for the last, almost 30 years i have been a little or trying to suggest that pakistan belongs to the region. and that pakistan should develop the greater economic and strategic relationships with the russian federation with the people's republic of china, and understand any darn in all these, you know, or turkey or so i think that her mom, i like her the, the former prime minister's narrative, a but i'm not sure whether he's actually whether, you know,

he actually grab used it to when he was so sort of for losing power. so he used it politically. i'm not sure. now are many people have argued that pakistan and others need to sort of free themselves from western guardianship. but i think he, you and your are writing went far more radical. you've been actually suggesting that many countries in asia, in the middle east, in africa, i still under the yoke of colonialism which is a pretty strong statement and very hard statement for any particularly minded person to talk sent on to being too harsh. no, i think the data fact at least in pakistan and many other countries as well. for example, in pakistan i'm, we are ro, an independent country looks supposedly i'm a bug in spite of that. or, you know, the, a lot of our important positions are, say, a, you know, appointed by both usa and you get our prime minister and

no other ministers, all the economic managers grant from the international financial institutions. and then if you look at our policies, whether it is economic policies or whether it is strategic policies or political, they're also made in the us and you get a saw, i posted, you feel that term. we are independent though. oh it, you know, i mean, like we like to celebrate independence and people like to think that they are independent. but i personally feel that job that we are independent only, you know, oh, in name. you know, for example, the colonial transfers that used to take place when pakistan in all these other countries were, are in the colonial mode. i, i feel that they're still continuing in some a form. sometimes they're given more to speak to balloon. so it's interesting that you mentioned that because in one of the interviews, are you sad, for example,

that ah, pakistan got no sing for the american use of the infrastructure during the so called warren turn. despite the fact that the, you not only lost and turn a lot of in terms of resources, but also, you know, tens of thousands of lives, of your, of your people. and that's a fascinating fact that you have sacrificed them provided so lunch without what? well, what actually did you, did you get in return and you're actually, you know, there was this collision support fund and that the united states used to be us be nuts for the use of our infrastructure. and all i, it was such a god. ah, you know, destroyed because of the use of you know, those vehicles and things. and for a few days for 11 days, ran back a signed refuse to give its facilities because of the incident. a tele, at that time, some sets, while central asian republic made billions of dollars. i heard you saying another

engineer that the pakistani political forces, regardless of their ideology, may sound very patriotic when they are in opposition. but once they come to power, they tend to become quite compliant with, with foreign interest. and i wonder if it's in a way, logical because if you look around there, very, very few countries of fanny that can afford to be fully insulated from foreign influences. if you look at pakistan, the governments particularly him, if you look at the last government, i mean her or the prime minister had made so many commitments. and he had said so many things. but i think her, after he came to bar i'm, he said that he will get himself rather than go to the i m f and then read. he came to par, he went to the i, m f. and then there was this. so did he have a choice? do you think he realistically had a choice in his economic policies to pursue some other booth i, you see a lot of people used to say that there is no alternative and that, that,

that only alternative to go to the i m f and i being an economist, every time there was a change in government, i used to write an article and send it to the, you know, the potential, you know, pragmatist et cetera. and i should tell them that this is a do alternative. and that they should not go to the i m f. but every time, even all the governments that came to par, they used to be criticizing the sitting. gov went that went to the i m f. but dave, the moment they came to pod, they would themselves go to the i'm if so i give them an alternative. and i publicized my alternative, and i give seminars on the alternative and i give conferences. and i said that could, this is the alternative. and this is my alternative, is a foster repeated alternative to the i'm if well, let me ask her specifically about the issue of the central bank and telling me, because i know that you criticized around very vocally for that. i'm on the surface . it seems that giving the a alamita central bank as

a way to secure it from corrupt local interest. matthew, in fact, argued that it is a way of delivering the country directly to the i. m f. jubal, if there's any middle path that would allow the country to go its way, protect itself from vested interest from vested interest, both inside and outside. actually i feel that if the state bank was actually being made autonomous, then all the institutions in the state bank, you know, the committees and the board should have been strengthened. but that didn't not happen. actually, the, many of the know the executive board was a dismantled and a very important executive committee was dismantled and all the powers were transferred to one person due to the governor. now if you are daily making the state bank autonomous, then you should be strengthened its institutions and its committees and you know, boards. but there did not happen. all the powers were transferred to one person governor who was in i, america, employee. so strengthening you means a,

you mean diversifying the influence, you know, a pre introducing many stakeholders who would influence the policy rather than making it so. centralized, is it not making it so centralized? because you see everything depends on one person. and for example, earlier there was this board and the board had its own, you know, a lot of members and there was the column. but what they did was that the column consisted only of the governor, and when deputy governor sure was 2 to 3 people that constituted the quorum. so with the result that if they were given any orders from washington, they would comply with those orders because they would just treat people who medical em. i heard you say that the premature departure from around home from office was do not so much to the differences in policy between pakistan and the united states, but to the personal relationship between emerson hahn and joe biden, that they had some sort of a fall out in that was indeed the case. isn't that even worse than the colonial is

because that there seems that you know, they, the entire fate of the 220000000 people is dependent on the personal relationship between 2 man act. actually what happened was prior to joe biden, coming to bar a, trump had a very close relationship with her in ran han and which bought his johnson and with moody, they had formed some sort of a, you know triangle. and they were very close. it would been the presidential elections were taking place. both m grant hind end and that in that movie had gone to the us to muster support for oh, just her on the surface though, the bad thing i'm in there, but we are so used to pakistan in india, arguing that they'd be made for a good video leah, but you see the problem is that when joe biden became the president, i think he got offended. he thought that they were totally with dram. and i think for some reason, rob, because india is a big country, joe biden,

couldn't afford to continue with this antagonism towards woody. but i think he started ignoring by kasanya prime minister, and he was doing all the business widget over there. you know, general badge was so i think that irritated him brown hand. and now i feel that i would have been totally supporting him brown hand. if he had picked up this sir. then you see the narrative was very good. i am to put all out for the narrative because if he had taken up this sort of fight her own account of state bank autonomy or i miss her coming so much to the i'm if or on cash leave or an honest. and then i would have been very supportive of her grandson, but i feel that it, when it came to pakistani national issues and when on hand gave in completely. and so did general badge. well, what of them did a, but i think are pakistan and other developing countries need to get out of this colonial more than i think what is wedding to me. yes. ah,

i recently written article in which i said that actually what's happening is that um that this by the western county, especially the united states, n a yuki, they're taking, the developing was back to the colonial order to the 19 fortify ward up. and i think this started happening immediately after 911, and that was way a lot of people feel that 911 was actually a staged thing. and i think that that is why, you know, the 1st attack was on over understand. and after that, your deck had 20 years of land resources. and although you know, dpr, man, you, danny, i was taken out over by this time and then it up or i was attacked this for the 2nd time in 2003. and also i think her difficulties being faced by sealant guy and pakistan and turkey, so close legged all these countries are standing in a queue and they're being hit one by one. and you feel,

look at what's happening is that the established order is being dismantled and their resources are being taken out. and there are a, for example, i have a bitches of it are key, you know, good results being taken out by us. and you can national so while a professor is that right, we have to take a very short break right now. but we will be back in just a few moments stating, ah ah ah, ah, ah, ah, ah,

a, [000:00:00;00] a a. so what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have. it's crazy confrontation, let it be an arms. race is often very dramatic. development only personally, i'm going to resist. i don't see how that strategy will be successfully, very critical time. time to sit down and talk

ah welcome back to his appointment. she that is are as professor at the institute of business management in karachi, pakistan, professor. and just before the break, we were talking about, you know, various developing countries suffering through war through sometimes economic aggression nowadays through our many sanctions. because you know, that fuel and food prices are rising because of the crisis in ukraine. and many of the countries that have already very little resources have to pay a lot. now i mentioned in the beginning of our program that the 2nd world war, formally at least led to the end of colonialism. and i, i hear many experts here in russia suggest that we are now in a sort of a 3rd world war hybrid war. but the war and on the last g. things that were made

change to any significant change in the way things are both economically and geopolitically in the world. absolutely. i think that, you know, in many countries, like you said, because of the war in ukraine, there are lots of problems for many countries, not just developing countries, but for even such a big country. lake the russian federation, and also other countries or the casa smiling. and so usually what was going to happen is that i think the strategy is different for different countries. now some countries are going to be facing economic meltdowns, and that is going to result in dismantling their stablished order. and i think some countries might actually be facing the actual war. so i think that bought, you know, for example, war, actual war and economic meltdown leading to civil strife and economic turmoil living to a, you know,

instability in the country relieve living to finally collapse of the system. i think both are going to be used at to a big down established order and developing countries and then, and then obviously which means that these countries within, oh, will not be able to protect themselves. so i think that they're the established order, and i mean, other countries will come over by will got profit. countries will come over and kick their resources. now i think there is one thing in common land comes to security between russia and pakistan is that we, we both were sort of seduced by security promises. you weren't given certain promises when it comes to the war on terror. we were given certain promises when it comes to indivisible, security in europe. i think both of our countries are more insecure as a result of believing in those promises. but russia came to

a point where it is now waging and military operation against its neighbour. as honest as you can afford yourself to be, how do you look at it? do you think it was inevitable? do you think russia realistically have perhaps a more humane and better and more efficient option to deal with its concerns? i think it's really unfortunate loss of life and you korean, and russia is very unfortunate because this it'll human lives. so, i mean, i would feel sympathetic to would, to the loss of russian life as well as ukrainian lives. i don't know much about it because i've been concentrating. there's so many problems at button. so normally you get bogged down in your own problems. what you're actually, i would hope that, you know, did the ukrainian conflict would be resolved peacefully and they both parties would try and try to resolve the problems. like i would also hope that pakistan in india would try to dissolve the crush me problem. but is, is that,

do you think that's in line with what we have discussed previously, the sort of poster neo colonial aspirations of certain western powers. because i know that many academics, let's say in india, or even in pakistan, believe that one of the reasons this, this culture has been going on for so long is because it's in the interest of the u . k. and then you have to see those 2 neighbors fighting. and there are many people here in russia who, including present putting, who said the other day that he believes that although supplies of western armed to grain, i'm motivated by one goal only to prolong the conflict and to have the russians and the ukrainians are continued to find, do you think that's all part of the strategy or of the same strategy, or am i stretching it too far? i think it good really will be, because you see the fight. you know that a conflict. i mean the war in ukraine. i think it's after a long time that there's been a conflict in europe and i think that no,

no, from that point of view, it's a, there's a big qualitative change because after the 2nd world war, ah, what d'oeuvre western countries are said to have decided was no more war because there was so devastated by the horrors of war that this had normal war. but i think what the western world actually said was normal war in the western word. because after the 2nd world war, all the wars were exported to the eastern countries or to the developing countries . now if you look at the present a situation or you find that there is stalker conflict, and it looks like that all the developing countries have been turned into a water heater. but from that point of view, this is a very big qualitative change that there is a war in europe and irv ivr rates are interviews of people, eob, eob, western countries, european and american. i mean,

they said that the tuesday is quite offensive. they said that, you know, people like us is getting killed. i mean, they don't realize that the wars that have been taking place in the developing countries that are human beings getting killed as well. but it looks like enemy millions in fact of yes, but it looks like they were just, you know, like a vaccine mouse that they were getting killed and they were being bombed it. but when something like this happens in europe, then it's a very serious thing for data. i think i find video fence and i also ask you a couple of questions and china because i know you're written a book on china specifically on what lessons can pakistan, perhaps a lot of countries draw from i, china's economic, our success. los russia and pakistan have strong ties with this nation, and i guess one can argue that we're essentially training one dependence in the dependency on the west for another independence in, in this case,

dependency on china. how is being partners miss china differs from being partners in the united states. and you, good question. i think you see, if you look at pakistan for the last 75 years, ah, pakistan had been trying very hard to develop the country now using her head from the international financial institutions. we 1st got some, you know, a project based training for our, our infrastructure for our, you know, dance that mailer daemon, mont ladamme. and i think they're the same time. ah, because the soviet union was there and americans were there. i think this was the best time for developing countries to develop because the environment was not hostile for david and he had the best of both worlds. you can get yourself alone. but what happened was that m o, o, especially window for isn't august became industrialized. and the late coming asian

tigers became industrialized. then there was this so feeling in the west that the, in the celebration of the developing world was responsible for the deed distillation of the advanced western countries. because a lot of industries were closing down in england and other western countries. so what happened was that there are a lot of things, the change to even the goods in for the international financial institutions, instead of giving up with touching miss lending devoted to policy based lending. and her, the point that i'm trying to make is that with policy based lending, i take the example of pakistan. i mean, we have, we're devastated our economies through trying to get money for budgetary support. and we're rent view, good. you go to the i am, if their policies are very contract nitty. if you end up with reducing your output growth to your employment growth, you increase your rate of inflation. you increase the, the ask unit and the distribution of income and you increase poverty. and then you

also invite the social crisis because in poverty level is increasing so much cranks increase. he played casing. that's intentional. or is it just the lack of foresight? i'm in the policy. is that because they way here and describing in it, it gives you a lot of trouble for very little banner said do you think that was and designed or do you think it's just, you know, the economic dogma that the west wants to hear, you know, when i was talking about the west, and i said that there was this feeling that there was and industrialization and the developing countries was responsible for the d industrialization and the advanced countries in western countries. so that is why they went around changing the rules . and then the, they had the counter revolution. the counter revolution was actually a reaction to the keynesian revolution. and the count of evolution, actually, you know, it resulted in the implementation of new liberal policies. and those same policies were adopted by the international financial institutions when they were giving it

to developing countries that didn't do you think those policies are they ultimately serving the developing countries or, and they are designed when they developed world and mine. they were designed with the view to d and de soliciting developing countries. for example, if you look at pakistan, industries have we have lost, a lot of the industries have closed down and several let people have been dead unemployed. so in this couldn't have been, i mean the couldn't be, it's not that their economics are so poor that they have those ph. d. 's in economic sitting there. and bringing in policies with would lead to such massive unemployment, massive deduction and outward growth. so obviously they are formulated the policies in such a way that this developing countries are faced with c. his problems. when dick joined to the i, m f saw this was in contact with china trying to connect to china. so, i mean, we had this problem with also into 5 years that we did not red development,

although the went to the i missed so many times and our governments went and had ended up destroying our economy. and then we had the sir, you know, the chinese game with this service or one bed, one group project and part of the in pakistan, the part of the project is g peg. now when we had the seabeck, there was a lot of antagonism from a by india, from u. s. and u k. in other western countries also. so it looked like that they will do one to let us develop through going to the i m f. but they're equally adamant not to let us develop through getting, you know, see back to, because said that countries were usa, you give it openly, you know, denouncing seabag. i feel that this is the 1st time that pakistan was able to get some development. i'm having said that, i also feel that if we have governments that term have some strength,

have the knowledge, are honest, then they can negotiate better. but the chinese because in china did his ged trojans for corruption at the highest level. so chinese government are very honest into dealing with other countries and if other countries, governments are equally honest, then deacon bought, you know, what term and you think god technological vents, the division of technological advance between the host country and the investing country. so i think it all depends how much you are able to get out of a any error before investor. depends on how well you are able to negotiator. can i very quickly ask you one question about chinese leadership? because in your book you, you pay a lot of attention to confusion qualities. and you're saying that the, the chinese never look for celebrities with careers math. instead, their philosophy enjoins upon them to look for substance and it seems like such an obvious and necessary orientation for any country in disdain. age,

but why do you think it hasn't succeeded anywhere beyond china? because at the end of the day, we are all paying a lot of attention to you know, careers, man, political statements are not so much to the actual facts on the ground. can he just make one connection? yeah, that i haven't written this book. this book was written of by ambassador has an jargon, and i wrote a review of that. okay. i've written other books, but this book is written by a former, but do you still agree with this? i agree with this. absolutely. because i feel that, you know, there is this thing about chinese wisdom. i think that has something to do with it . like this. the odds always think the chinese are very wise people. i think chinese are using their wisdom for the benefit of their country. and for example, other countries where what does go and would, and they just, you know, look at a personality and the 3 that the bus actually is good looking, dashing,

and then there are a lot of falling. but i think chinese sir, look for substance. they look for now the discuss the confusion from confucius qualities for leadership. and i think that's really the way to go about it. because then you know that the person is honest. the person has the knowledge, the person is the, you know, he'll make a good leader. he has leadership qualities. so i posted but totally believe that in there, you know, there's so quality. well, we have to even there. thank you very much for your with them tonight. thank you very much for having me and thank you for watching hope to see her again. was a part ah with

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