you know, for the last, i was 30 years, i have been you know, are trying to suggest that pakistan belongs to the region. and that pakistan should develop her greater economic and strategic relationships with the russian federation, with the people's republic of china. and understand any darn in all these, you know, a turkey or so i think that her mom, i like her the former prime minister's narrative. oh, but i'm not sure whether he's actually whether you know, he actually grab used it to when he was so sort of for losing power. so he used it politically. i'm not sure. now are many people have argued that pakistan and others need to sort of free themselves from western guardianship. but i think he, you, in your are writing went far more radical. you've been actually suggesting that many countries in asia, in the middle east,

in africa. i still under the yoke of colonialism, which is a pretty strong statement and very hard statement for any particularly minded person to talk sent on to being too harsh. no, i think that that effect at least in pakistan and many other countries as well. for example, in pakistan i'm, we are ro, an independent country 6 supposedly. ah, ah, but in spite of that, or you know, the, a lot to for important positions. i say a, you know, appointed by our booth. you as he and you get, ah prime minister and her other ministers, all the economic managers grant from the international financial institutions. and then if you look at our policies, whether it is economic policies or whether it is strategic policies or political, they're also made in the us and you get a saw, i posted, you feel that term we and independent. so, oh, it, you know, i mean,

like we like to celebrate independence and people like to think that they are independent. but i personally feel that job that we are independent only, you know, oh, in name. you know, for example, the colonial transfers that used to take place when pakistan in all these other countries were, are in the colonial road. i feel that they're still continuing in some form. sometimes they are given motor specter balinsa. it's interesting that you mentioned that because in one of the interviews, are you sad, for example, that pakistan got no sing for the american use of the infrastructure during the so called war on turn. despite the fact that the, you not only lost and turn a lot of in terms of resources, but also, you know, tens of thousands of lives, of your, of your people. and that's a fascinating fact that you have sacrificed them provided so much without what?

well, what actually did you, did you get in return? and yeah, actually, you know, there was this collision support fund and that the united states used to be us be that's for the use of our infrastructure. and all night was such a good job, you know, destroyed because of the use of you know, those vehicles and things. and for a few days, for 11 days, ran back assigned, refuse to give its facilities because of the incident, a trailer at that time. some sets will centralization, ver, republic made billions of dollars. i heard you saying and other into your, the pakistani political forces, regardless of their ideology, may sound very patriotic when they are in opposition. but once they come to power, they tend to become quite compliant with, with foreign interest. and i wonder if it's in a way, logical because if you look around, they're very, very few countries of fanny that can afford to be fully insulated from foreign

influences. if you look at pakistan, the governments particularly him, if you look at the last government, i mean her or the prime minister had made so many commitments. and he had said so many things. but i think her, after he came to bar i'm, he said that he will kill himself rather than go to the i m f. and then when he came to bar he went to the i, m f. and then there was this. so did he have a choice? do you think he realistically had the choice in his economic policies to pursue some other both are you see a lot of people used to say that there is no alternative and that, that, that only alternative with to go to the i m f and i being an economist, every time there was a change in government, i used to write an article and send it to the, you know, the potential, you know, pragmatist, et cetera. and i should tell them that this is sir, do alternative, and that they should not go to the i m f. but every time, even, all the governments that came to park,

they used to be criticizing the sitting government that went to the i'm if. but dave, the moment they came to buy, they would themselves go to the i m f. so i gave them an alternative and i publicized my alternative. and i give seminars on the alternative and i gave conferences and i said the could this is the alternative and this is my alternative . is a foster repeated alternative to the i'm if well, let me ask her specifically about the issue of the central bank and telling me because i know that you criticized imminent. i'm very vocally for that. i'm on the surface. it seems that giving the autonomy to a central bank as a way to secure it from corrupt local interest with you in fact, argued that it is a way of delivering the country directly to the i. m f. giblin. there is any middle path that would allow the country to go its way, protect itself from vested interest from vested interest, both inside and outside actually. um yeah, i feel that if the state bank was actually being made autonomous,

then all the institutions in the state bank, you know, the committees and the woods should have been strengthened. but that didn't not happen. actually, the many of the know the executive board was her, dismantled, and to a very important executive committee was dismantled and all the powers were transferred to one person due to the governor. now if you are daily making the state bank autonomous, then you should be strengthened its institutions and its committees and you know, boards. but that did not happen. all the powers were transferred to one person governor who was in. i am a for employee, so strengthening you means a human diversifying the influence, you know, a pre introducing many stakeholders who would influence the policy rather than making it so. centralized is it not with making his source interlaced because you see everything depends on one person. and for example, earlier there was this board and the board had its own, you know, a lot of members and there was the column. but what they did was that the column

consisted only of the governor, and when deputy governor saw almost 2 to 3 people that constituted the court m. so with the result that if they were given any orders from washington, they would comply with those orders because they were just 3 people who met the court. m. i heard you say that the premature departure from rand home from office was do not so much to the differences in policy between pakistan and the united states, but to the personal relationship between enron hahn and joe biden, that they had some sort of a falling out if that was indeed the case, isn't that even worse than the colonial is because there seems that you know, they, the entire fate of the 220000000 people is dependent on the personal relationship between 2 man act. actually what happened was prior to joe biden, coming to bar, trump had a very close relationship with her in ran han and which bought his johnson and with

moody, they had formed some sort of a, you know triangle. and they were very close. it would been the presidential elections were taking place, both in van han end, no in that movie, had gone to the u. s. to muster so old for oh, on the surface of the bad thing i'm in there. we are so used to pakistan in india, arguing that they'd be made for the good video. leah, but you see the problem is that when you buy to begin the president, i think you got offended. he thought that they were totally with tramp, and i think for some reason, rob, because india is a big country, joe biden, couldn't afford to continue with this antagonism towards woody. but i think he started ignoring back as i knew, prime minister, and he was doing all the business widget or with her, you know, general badge was. so i think that irritated him brown hand. and now i feel that i would have been totally supporting him. brown hand, if he had picked up the serve, then you see the narrative was very good. i am talk all out for the narrative

because if he had taken up this sort of fight herb for on account of state bank autonomy or i miss her coming. so much to the i'm if or on cash leave or on of line is that then i would have been very supportive of her brand time. but i feel that it, when it came to pakistani national issues and mankind gave in completely. and so did general bi dwaa, both of them did a, but i think pakistan and other developing countries need to get out of this colonial more than i think what is wanting to me is um i recently written article in which i said that actually what's happening is that, um this by the western country, especially the united states, n a u. k. they're taking, the developing was back to the colonial order to the $900.00 fortify warder. and i think this started happening immediately after 911. and that way, a lot of people have seen that a 911 was actually

a staged thing. and i think that that is why, you know, the 1st attack was on of ramstein. and after that attack her 20 years of laundry sources. and although, you know, the chairman. yeah, you, danny, i was taken out of a plan to stand and then it up or i was attacked us for the 2nd time in 2000 and to me and also i think the difficulties being faced by she didn't go and baptist on and turkey. so close, make it all these countries are standing in a queue and they're being hit one by one. and if you look at what's happening this did this cabinet order is being dismantled and data sources are being taken out. and dev grand, for example, i keep little bitches of it aki, you know, good results being taken out by us and you can national so while a professor is that right, we have to take a very short break right now, but we will be back in just a few moments stating,

ah ah ah, i must have before them. william went to rito martinez was a co merchant but at the moment so daisy in that area. so there is an annual. this is on the course. they don't get em. mm. play in as a natural am i missing the list? i'm wondering is do it, but i don't want to lose images to them. that's clearly capital e. s a this huh? natural national says a quarter just now my shift machina, my will come and get a slight bit of air in brazil. the roof said joe, wishing his island,

shall i get it? i was just a bottles to jelly those the before the got us deal on that because always like it was in there to me. ok. a motion thing is you need a partial team that we're almost tomorrow when you march the window. it was, what was it if the machine is for the most complex, for most, most of them don't put a shield or dish on that or my last day it was the she just said, as she has done on the shadow and when you get it all in good, it was a secretary on august telling me about this and i need you to complete the deal and know and have them chest in your buster though. i must be in the bush school, but i will look up on an appoint some way we will pick it

up under my shannon just to know, but i mean, you're going to put them on the machine and the physician will. i put it in the most of the union before the video. i'm going to go or video. i'm going is way, way much in that way. when i put a to me. but i'm, i will, i was supposed to sit in the motion wished and i'm not really sure what it was really for interview bringing of i should be able to show me, you come over to see what it was for me from the show. so i can see what kind of stuff you want to share for me. so i showed him and told us up to him about the actual ball up into that

me the a new business and you will clean them a lot of shoes. americans, grey you. when you were with just such an upgraded to the ceiling in for when you was just suction. sure, of course it was nice talking to different student info with you to throw in the with them on the problem. you're still with yours with jewish and the longer it will show us a push to, to stereotypically remote because there's no way to port your school. of course,

i don't know who's got no point a to them. it will still do use for us to play in finances. come on both with breaking news on our key. the final leader of the soviet union mikhail gorbachev has died aged $91.00 and moscow central hospital after a prolonged illness will be looking through his historic legacy in our special covering can just a few months with at least 30 people are reportedly killed and over 700 wounded in clashes in bagdad following the retirement from politics of a leading shia cleric who opposes us influence, interact with more than 1200 of troops are reported. killed in

a botched offensive ordered by ukrainian president the lensky in that country. south. that's according to data disclosed by russia, defense minister with ah, hello there you're watching r t international. i'm your host donald quarter. welcome to the program. now breaking news on our t. the final leader of the soviet union mikhail gorbachev has died age to 91 in moscow, central hospital after a prolonged illness. and he, ta politicians from around the world have already expressed their deep condolences over his death. but now we're going to take a look at the through gorbachev's profound legacy and our special coverage here on our to international ah

the co gorbachev's, the last leader of the soviet union. he was during, during his almost 6 years in office, garbage have set in motion a series of radical reforms that would change the course of history in this program . we'll be looking at some of the pivotal chapters of his life and examining his legacy a for the 1st time, the soviet union agreed to destroy weapons. they already had mister gorbachev. tear down this ah

yup, is going to show you so uniqueness. with it or what i have a wider discussion on this. we're going across live to dr. george simoli,

a senior research fellow at the global policy institute in london. thanks for joining us on the program. dr. so do you think mikhail gorbachev's death came unexpectedly? why not unexpected remedies 91 years old? so it was pretty expected. well, what do you, what do you have to say about gorbachev's? the symbolism behind gorbachev's death? do you think it's fair to say that it was? it's the end of an error, an arrow, sorry. well the arrow goes and the a long time ago will be gone by left his post in 1991 with the dissolution of the soviet union. and that was the end of his political career, although he lives on for another 30 years. he's gotta live down as an irrelevant big a. no one paid any attention to him. no one paid any attention to what he said. he

really left behind a very dismal legacy and it was a staggering home between the adulation that enjoyed anyone who was alive during those years will recall this. he was treated like a god in the western media. i mean everyone in the west or him and then when he came to an end with his resignation as president of the u. s. as he was gone, you must regard, you know, any further attention to him and i think relaxed on his legacy. and it's a very dismal legacy. unfortunately, i mean, he had big ideas, but he had no idea how to implement them. and, you know, he inherited something that was problematic, but nonetheless, the formidable, serious country. and he just let it all split by in a matter of just 6 years. i mean, it's quite a remarkable failure. well,

you just said, of course, the, you know, after the fall of the soviet union, he was largely ignored. but would you say that there's any, there were any highlights of his career after the fall of the soviet union connected to supporting nuclear disarmament or, and connection to him speaking out about social and environmental problems? no, really. i mean, i think that even in the west, people who might and didn't pay that much attention to them. i think he always the back home and his own country. no one really cared much about him and to the extent that they gave him a school, they school any very negatively about him. he only really made a appearance in as far as consciousness. ready was concerned when people such as his friend, his good friend, the lady for the co would interview him, talk to him. and then would publicize which was the late response of ation.

but otherwise he really didn't have anything to say. and the reason is that he left his country and such a paula said, i mean the measure, any leader is did you make your country stronger through the year that your leadership is going to be better off and strong than he was when you took over and when you leave, and it's much to the point in which you left this country as a mercy of enemies, then history the well upon you. and in his game to go the live dog for another year, which is a long time his contemporaries did not look upon him favorably. because they saw the, the method that he created in contrast to the formidable state

that he had inherited. again, it did have problems because every state had problems, but he didn't know how to solve the problems and he's just simply destroyed what he should have just tried to repair. what do you think about the concrete policies of glass and austin, perestroika that garbage have tried to implement? do you think that they could have worked or where they just kind of a pipe dream? it's, you know, someone who is willing to just concede to the west. well, it was if he has known how to channel in a proper direction. i mean, it should have been clear to him fairly early on, that the system was just disintegrating and he was dissolving in his hand. you know, the contrast with the china is very notable. i mean,

the chinese managed to make drastic changes to the system as it was, you know, the chinese leaders from being new. she think clarity, knew that the communist system created mildly, it could not survive. they have to reform it, they have to change it, adapt the new circumstances without throwing the baby out of the box. so the chinese new house and do it or by show really didn't know. and he got more and more carried away with his greatness. so as he was celebrated in the wet and, and really all the nobel peace prizes and man of the amount of the big a man of a century, all the gall and the heat on them in to pay more attention to that. then trying to address the problem,

he was very good at political fighting. i mean you have to give it to him. he was very skilful as defeating all his political enemies, one by one. they fell by the wayside. you had to do that, but he failed at the big project to get no idea how to implement the, the big project. and then at the crucial time, which was the most crucial, which is my, my get a nice like in 91. when the soviet union was them really in serious peril because with the whole of the wall and that meant by the fall of the communist states of eastern europe. he really had to take very seriously as to the, the potential security threat to the soviet union. and then developing and then he addressed it before we are, the russian became at the must be in and he didn't know how to do that. and he just

making the normal rash decisions just withdrawing his horses from eastern europe without getting any real guarantees for russian security he did without giving you the serious slogan that's going to get dr. george simoli, the senior research fellow at the global policy institute in london, thanks lot for joining us on the program. thank you. mikhail gorbachev have overhauled the soviet union's foreign policy by introducing the new political thinking doctrine which thought relations with the west and brought about the end of the costly cold war. corbet you have called for the world to be seen as united and interdependent. instead of divided into communist and capitalist countries, we saw the balance of interests of different countries as a way of solving international problems. universal values had to be recognized above all others, whether they be religious or national. the soviet leader also wanted to see the

world free of nuclear weapons by the start of the 21st century. ah, she ended the isolation of our country. and she brought last most end freedoms. ah, he accompanied group which of to the key meetings of the time on witnessing his history was made. one such meeting was the reykjavik summit in october 1986, the 1 when ronald reagan and may have gorbachev moved to a ground breaking nuclear arms control agreement. despite talks collapsing at the last minute, there was still seen as a huge breakthrough. reykjavik was the most dramatic count, the most exciting, and ultimately a disappointment at to that point. but later it turned out that the main parameters of nuclear arms reductions had been agreed. and then

became treated that were assigned and $87.00, and then $9.00 to $1.00, and those are treaties. so i think are russia, us and the world read a well over the decades break havoc became possible only after the 1st meeting between reagan and gorbachev. the historic 1985 geneva summit, it was held despite huge skepticism around the event. ah, many soviet experts on the united states thought that reagan was a very conservative, very right wing president with whom you can really cannot do business and done. gotcha believed otherwise. and said otherwise, and they were able to establish a relationship with reagan that work quite well. but one of the very 1st meetings gorbachev held with the west was with the iron lady herself yuki premier,

margaret thatcher. the 2 met in 1984 before gorbachev. even by in soviet leader, the talks were viewed as a 1st step to finally warming relations between the soviet union and the west. i like mister gorbachev, we can do business together. she said so to rather reagan in that sense, she was influential and she played an important role in establishing the right atmosphere. remember that before the trip came in, there hadn't been a us soviet some, it was 6 years. it's an absolutely incredible thing. if you look at it, it was a huge turnaround in the relationship and something that despite all the differences between gilbert job and subsequent leaders has not been undone, corbett chef was responsible for a major nuclear disarmament breakthrough. following 2 years of wrangling with the us president ronald reagan at the time over the issue, he made

a surprise announcement and said that the soviet union was ready to sign the treaty without delay. in december 1987, the ussr in the u. s. signed a deal to eliminate intermediate range nuclear forces. here you can see the iconic picture of corbett. chevy reagan, when they agreed to destroy their missiles, stop producing them and pledged not to carry out flight tests of intermediate of intermediate range missiles, professor of politics and the author of the rise and fall of communism. archie brown says gorbachev's should be given credit for diverting and devastating nuclear war. there are many western leaders as well. well, as many people in the soviet military industrial complex who thought that was utopian and couldn't happen and shouldn't happen. marg, sacha, for example, was very much opposed to achieve as in favor of produce nuclear weapons. so garbage off really was ahead of his time and, and that particular respect, he and reagan, so i to, i don't think they were successful in good.