[000:00:00;00] with ah ah hello and welcome to crossed out. were all things considered? i'm peter lavelle. as winter draws near in temperatures, drop europe finds itself to be very vulnerable. rejection of russian energy is not only slowing europe's economy, but also bringing on a recession. what's worst? europe's economic woes are self inflicted. is europe attempting suicide?

ah, cross sucking europe in crisis on joined by my guess michael hudson in new york. he's a professor of economics at the university, missouri, kansas city, as well as author of forgive them their debts in paris. we have john brick more. he is a political commentator. and in london we cross ed real consanzo. he's is founder of aka consulting and a foreign affairs analyst, or a gentleman cross stock rolls in effect. that means you can jump anytime you want. and i always appreciate. let's go to michael person, new york. i'm titling this program attempted suicide given what's going on the last 6 months in europe in the western world. and general d is that an appropriate title for what's going on? well, i'm not sure that they are realizing that it's suicide. it's more so they're following a u. s. policy, which is the u. s. wants to kill europe, but really think it over the americans are the great beneficiaries of this,

especially the oil industry that is cleaning up as the oil prices go up and that's strengthening the dollar. the euro's doing down the british pound is absolutely punching it's right now. $1.15 this morning and the, apparently, the europe is run by a nato amount by the elected politicians. and miss bare bach of the foreign secretary said yesterday in poland, but she doesn't care what the european voters month. she's going to support your brain. well, imagine the politicians saying they don't care what the voters say that she's in there, and she is going to do what she's agreed with the united states to do to boycott russia. let me go to going to go to paris john. i mean, how do you explain that? i mean, i agree with everything that michael just said there and, but i thought europe in america were comrades in arms,

and it comes to their proxy war against russia. but, you know, the, the, the, the 2 players to get the short end of the stick are obviously ukraine and europe. but, you know, europe, this seems to continue to cow to washington when it's not in there, no interest whatsoever. is there any explanation for that? go ahead in paris. i want to emphasize, you know, a whole place and there was name, i forgot the one who said that the problem in was that the dish and like to the media. and then with the newspaper. i mean, the nice that being said to when i think i believe, i mean your faculty additions and lead to restriction she, norma's 1st of all, this said that the war was uncovered. it was not until both was a mystery. been diagnosed or choose or joplin scheman. mashaila was again simply a commentator. i say that repeatedly since 2014 jeffrey sachs,

if you went at the end of 2021 to the white house to tell them you know, this is going to be to war and the white house. we're not going to discuss with the russians, nor we, that's the 1st the, then they said that the national economy is going to collapse. they will see that because it by then says that the mayor was the french means to have it for we can only say that deal collapse. now with this see, we would have to set up of democracy. and so nobody said that in will with the wellness that there would be any cost. none of the russians are going to collapse. no, she goes yet, or that you have to suffer to win the warning in them. what will end the war and show you where the americans are he keesing these is the county where he's read is bonding. she don't know if we were told to suffer from that every with reject that . that's where she go to. so shut off of the more pressing, trim level one over. well, i think that's a good. let me go to a draw on that point there. ok, let's talk about this. suffering ok. but it's not the it,

this is an elite driven war in the west. this is what they want. this is a proxy war against russia. ukraine is a footnote and all of this. and so we have to suffer, but not the people to make the decisions don't suffer. everybody else does. and that's what makes this conflict different for the west, because nobody really suffered for afghanistan or iraq in the west. ok. but now it's all coming home and you have to supper, but we're not going to supper. go ahead in london. so it will not let me go to london here in london. will you absolutely right pizza, but at the same time, we have to bear in mind that we are a collective society. so in europe, in europe, in european union, we are complicit in this great life. i mean, we are talking about the politicians that they line to us. but what about the economist? what about the public intellectuals? what about the journalist and economists who are perfectly aware of what is happening and they are complicit and taking part in this great lie. i mean,

no one in the new in the western newspapers, maintenance mainstream newspapers and intellectual public intellectuals or they have a rise in a voice against it. i mean, everyone is just supporting it because because of the, you know, indoctrination with this liberal indoctrination throughout the years here in european union, in united kingdom and across the west. some of the very intelligent when i was use the last teller a citation calling, intelligent he had idiots. people was, you know, well versed in economics, in politics, in geopolitics, are still believing that it is worth suffering or to, to achieve some, you know, it was already go goal, which is, which is not going to be a good adrian,

adrian. i'm glad you brought this up. give me just ask you real quickly here before i go to michael, you know, particularly with this crisis that's been generated in ukraine, i am really sick and tired of smart people saying really stupid things. ok. and it's empirically provable. ok, michael, i mean if you're the economist here, europe is decided to de industrialize. is that a good idea? i mean, that lack of competitiveness. i mean, it is a want to become a backwater and it talk about washington winning. do they want to win a part of the world that used to be rich? that is growing, that is going to become very, very poor very, very quickly if they don't change course michael in new york. well, hi. there have not been official critiques of supporting ukraine other financial times and the other papers have made it very clear that are in england. the cost of heating your home is going to go up. $505000.00 pounds per year. they've said half of the pumps in england,

they're going to have to close. they haven't talked about the industrialization. they're talking 1st of all about forcing most of the way journey population into death or is simply unable to heat the homes. they're talking about closing down much of the consumer economy in germany, they're talking about closing. they've closed down the german steel industry. they've because he still uses energy. they've closed down the fertilizer we talk before. they've turned close down the get glass industry. italy is especially hardly heard, so. busy what the press is talking about is how europe in the industry is being dismantled and once dismantled, it cannot be started again. that's the important thing. when the steel industry company closes down, it's very hard to started up again. so we're talking about a permanent loss of markets and the americans are saying, well, we are,

we're going to be the gainers. because number one, we can produce steel. we are importing all the oil from russia that we want. we control our company's own steel companies abroad. so the american controlled companies in his l. michael lilian and are in let me interrupt you for a 2nd. but my hang on hang on. but you know, if this is what they're doing to europe in europe, will not be a consumer for american good. so it's kind of a double loss here. let me show you want to jump in in paris. go ahead. well, because now they say that all the sanctions in worker, you know, the russian economy can absolutely, we work in the long term. how do they know that she way should we trust that we would? i mean the problem of having the smart people in charge i dont know. you see she think hubig for example used to being somebody was hiding. children's book is no training. academia who says things like, oh oh companies are going to be banker. we're just not self or why. okay, so your big,

she doesn't know what happens. okay. they're not going to come in and they say they're going to give money, but will doesn't when it comes when they're going to print more money and printing mother or his taxes. and one of these things are going to solve the fact that their lack of energy and the lack of energy comes, i mean, why did it cause the way to destroy the, the nuclear energy industry? i mean, in transit, we change manage to kill one of the most that rants and technology dead world since you live 200. this is, i'm sorry, this is a religion. i mean, you know, there's, well, it shall in harmony. the areas as i have a whole of the fascinating where but then when michael, where does this come from? i mean, it sounds like an ideological obsess and, and how i mean, damn the facts. i mean, i, this is what i can't, i can't get my head around this. ok. i mean, you know, the, everyone is aware of what's going on in the real economy here. but there is no policy. should you have this list for us? i mean, oh my god, they're going from bad to worse in the u. k. i mean, this is

a craving choice. that's what makes this so bizarre, michael, it, is it the logical, but they have also calculated how the united states will gain a from france. you mentioned the magic word, bankruptcy. the real losers in the us will be many of the backs and euro because the banks are going to have many of their customers defaulting. their already fallen bank that so what we're talking about is not simply did the realization, but a bank crisis. the americans now have a chat to come in and i have the american banks by the european bank. so what this is? yes, it's going to knock. i, europe, down the americans can maintain control. they're not really concerned about losing the consumer markets. they're concerned about control and control of other countries. and they imagine that this will somehow strengthen their diplomatic position by being able to control europe. so it's a, the etiology is not simply anti russian li,

idiology is one wanting to control all the rest of the world. because if you cannot control it, they might do something that the americans don't like. that's the mentality that theology at work here. yeah, it doesn't have much to do with people, does it? i mean they, they, that son who the least of their concerns. there are gentlemen, i'm going to jump in here. we're going to go to a short break. and after that short break, we'll continue our discussion on the crisis in europe state with archie. ah, no. when i was showing wrong, i just don't know. i mean, you will have to ship out the scene because the african and engagement equals the trail went so many find themselves will to part we

choose to look for common ground. ah. ringback because she changed with fascinating that with most of national clue to which was actually due to room. and yeah, and those are the controllers like from when to do, i don't. but who did a with national anthem. com protect a tv from a paper interested to copy from. wanted a voice,

a blue, a welcome back. across stock were all things are considered out in peter labelle to remind you we're discussing the crisis in europe. ah. okay, let's go back to our guest in paris. i'd like to quote something that the french president mclaren said a few days ago. frances, that a quote tipping point in the country is essentially and facing now quote, an era of abundance coming to an end. that's an extraordinary thing for a major western leader to say, basically that the show is over live with less are abundance are the, the, the what the, what we presented to the world as a model has come to an end. i mean,

how did that guy get reelected? how the end of these people get, again, elect reelected. when you say the era of abundance is over? because the global south doesn't believe that. that's why they're continuing to buy fossil fuels because they want their future to be prosperous. but europe is given up. john, how do you explain that? well, i guess it as a desk provoke many negative reactions. since i have 10000000 people in france will, even though the poverty line, and of course again, as i said there was no, not the world of apology or the fact that this is a result of the sanctions on the now even that is the result of the sanctions and the window sanctions were vacant was going to be f o t. when they were that we're going to suffer the russians. we're going to suffer that you see on the edges you go aspect. i think there is also the question of german ranches, m, which a friends on to understand. i mean, the germans always, i think, had, when the back of their mind, the sort of preventable world war 2,

which was also revengeful, were one if you remember. but surely, there mean in him? he's russia and g. the revenge did not come home. the old conservative. hi, this issue washed house, et cetera, game from the progressive, the games in the social democrats who against den, if you're billed up in the eighty's, on the. busy for the priest and the did the take taking go, but jeff, another so get lead of thinking that job now is a peaceful counseling. we can only leave together happily thereafter. and of course, what happens now is that germany wanted control over the whole of you or he and you look against russia with he saw by the way. and of course they are miscalculated or the name of the idea that the result would be, oh no. so favorable to them because they seem to destroy their gun at me and that's of course not going to be the, you know, a strength of them. but they suddenly thought they were going to wash her, and in

a sense, get them to lunch and revenge. king as a seat on the mall or chris, a lot of his is of so because this is a, give us a good for nothing going on in the so. so this idea that they don't have the high that the americans have the transit germany east. hence german engine, i know it was another county were subjected to the treatment that i'm sick when the people on the dunbar. hutchins, for 8 years, it will take 8 years. the my dish and they did the full turn. i was one question you had to get over the americans at the canada because they were american students, american medical students, their last a gave you a policy. hey, chrissy is is is, is there a calling card here michael? i want you to reflect upon what my crown said, because this improves a without a doubt in my mind that neil liberalism is collapsed for the interests of the vast

majority. the people that it rolls over. i mean, that's an admission. that's an admission right there. and what does it talk about, considering what john had to say, what, what it has to say about european unity and western solidarity? i don't see it at all. i mean, if the elite lose all this, they don't care, it's there to turn off the lights, that it's really a very, very cynical approach. go ahead, michael. when you say that the abundance is over, what that means is it's time for an austerity program. and i am a foster already program, and the real question is, what are africa and south america and south asia going to do? are they going to be a part of this, or are they going to say, we need an alternative to austerity program. so there's no need of all for the era of abundance to and for us others, no technological problem. there is a military and

a financial problem. and the problem of american policy that brought this about the problem is, well, china, russia, india, and ram, and the neighboring countries create a set of alternative institutions to the american neo liberal. i m f and world bank . and they are, they going to create a new kind of an economy on different lines from the west. that really is what the question is. and so europe is giving a demonstration of how not to run a country. and i'm, i hope that other parts of the world are looking at this and say, there is an alternative, margaret thatcher was wrong. or if a, russia, china, india, and other countries to create an alternative set of institutions independent from ballard diploma. so i think that's very much already happening. we have bricks and so many other organizations that it's, it's in through time. and this is a, an important catalyst to move it along further because it,

because of sanctions and secondary sanctions, nobody wants to get involved in that. you know, the, the, the fear that comes out of washington only serves their interests and no one else's hell. you know, is there any way i, maybe this is a silly question, but is there any way back to do this and ring this bell, this craven choice that the europeans have taken? because, you know, if the weather is cooling down here in moscow, is going to be called here pretty soon. and what happens in the east weather rise just goes to the west. it's only a matter of time. go ahead in paris. does this as a job? well, the problem with this is janae. go with the union, there's no legitimacy whatsoever. the goal, chelsea, lawson will like that. what the role and things of them as a legitimacy. so he's taken a course social support or minority to support some people. these people have been elected to their only reason to be there is they're

expecting they're supposed to be expert again, but he did, although we are completely home, then we can go begging the see that there's nothing that legitimize them. and so therefore it is just, you know, they become, i mean, i think it's only going to go wrong, co testing the street. but the processing, the streets must be pretty, pretty serious because you know, they lobbied as the police and the army and sundays. he was in holland already with the farmers. i mean, it's going to be pretty tough because before they had made the sheet before they had which, and of course they keep on. so the, you know, the suggestion of fancy, which is working on a single offensive care covington and getting a sense easily over i mean it's going to be very bloody. oh is going to change but, but i agree. elicited the other thing with the sanctions. i got on you may not work it the destroyer economy, they don't, he's going to question like an in the bush,

russia to be ever closer to china and to india they were joined maneuver. who being that knew again, china would have joined. i knew yeah. how lean that there would be a push ma between turkey and syria or which in so the rebellion had all these things happening now as a result in about the push on diplomacy. and that's the worst thing from the worst nightmare story from the point of europe in china, getting close to russia is noticing a nightmare on there, provoking that so they will do everything that can go home for them. and i'll be there even puzzled, but we don't have all that we have to with one second part. let's go back to michael in new york. well, where do we go from here? because there seems to be an admission of defeat. they don't have any tools left in their toolbox. they're essentially telling everyone we have to suffer. and they have no vision for the future. i mean, what is going or you know, after the conflict is and come to an end. what then sanctions will remain. they have no, they have no plan, and particularly since they went great haste went into this. not thinking of the consequences. i have no,

i have no hope that these people know what they're doing. moving forward, michael. well, it's obvious now that you cannot simply roll things back and go back to the way things were before and say ok, russia, go back to your boundary. let's just paste the u. s. officials and said the ukraine war is only a catalyst for what is going to be a 20 year war. and their 20 year war is going to be how long we think it will take for us to take over russia, china, india, and iran. and the whole world, and until we do that, we're not going to stop. we're not going backwards. we're not going to paste, we're going to continue the ukraine war to continue to lead russia. every ukrainian who dies, absorbs at least one bullet. and that's going to leave russia with one lead less, but we're going to continue to fight. and this is only the opening line, the opening a strategic ploy in what's going to be a long,

long on going fight. and so it's up to the rest of the world to say, what are we going to do to respond to all this the west. the only has a plan that it wants to control how, what is our plan going to be to create an alternative, to the whole post more neo liberal order. that is and left us in debt to the i m f, in the bond holders with money? we can pay now that the oil prices and food prices are going up. what are we going to do to create a new world? because we can't go back to the old world that that is over. so we're in really a new development where countries are going to be making their own michael, that there's one little wrinkle in all this and then i'll get a shout here. what happens when people say no to what michael said? because the global south is saying no, and the level of administration is only increasing in europe. know is going to be the most obvious answer, but then that's when you have an authoritarian reaction. control of the military of

the police of big tech, social media. we've seen it all before. the last part, 2 jobs in paris. go ahead with a 20 year loan wall because that's exactly what's happening in afghanistan. we discussed that we could observe last year. so i didn't, i didn't, well, if they want to take a check engine and other counties as to what they have done against, you know, i think the good news of the listing agent just regular george bush, the world and the judge russians. and that happened to germany was changing on 22nd of june 1941. so it's a repeat say well, it went, which is very interesting here is that there seems to be no, no historical memory of things of what goes where michael, you know, last 30 seconds to you, they don't have any knowledge of history. that's why they're groping into the

future. 25 seconds to you. well, that's exactly the point though, all of this has happened before, and the only solution is going to be to make a clean slate and start all over again. and you can start all over again if you let united states have veto power over anything you do as it has in the world bank and the i m f. you have to start a new organization without us beat up our and the other is an alternative. but saying no, isn't enough. not beyond saying no, you have to say we, there is another way of doing things and you have to develop a whole set of shadow institution, an alternative institutions that's going to be the next stage that will evolve over the next. i think it's happening as we speak here. for fascinating discussion. i'm sorry, we lost our guest in london. many thanks, i guess in person in new york. and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at r t c next time. remember talk

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