eric said yesterday in poland, but she doesn't care what the european voters, mom, she's going to support your brain. well, imagine the politicians saying they don't care what the voters say that are she's in there and she is going to do what she's agreed with the united states to do 2 of the boycott. russia, let me, let me go to going to go to paris. john, i mean, how do you explain that? i mean, i agree with everything that michael just said there. i'm but i thought europe and america were comrades in arms and it comes so their proxy war against russia. but, you know, the, the, the, the 2 players to get the short end of the stick are obviously ukraine and europe. but, you know, in europe, this seems to continue to cow to washington when it's not in there, no interest whatsoever. is there any explanation for that? go ahead in paris. well, i want to emphasize, you know, the 15 has spoken about jim bio flies and there was a somebody whose name i forgot on world war one. who said that the problem in was

that the politicians like to the media and then believe what they need in the newspaper. i mean, the amount of lies that they're being fed to when they think i believe by many of apple additions, a lead to destruction is enormous. first of all, they say that the war was uncovered. it was another world, was a military be ws or choose or job played in scheduling. but shayna was again simply a commentator. i say that repeatedly since 2014 jeffrey sachs is doing that. the end of 2021, to the white house, to tell them, you know, this is going to be to will and the weight, i will say, we're not going to discuss with the russians the way this is the 1st the then they say that again, i'm is going to collapse, they would say that because it by then say that the man was in french means a can only say that didn't collapse. now would they say would have to suffer for democracy in so nobody said that's going to be will with the wellness that there

would be any cost. none of the options are going to corrupt. no, she goes yet or that you have to suffer to win the warning in what will end the war and show you where the americans are choosing their business in the county where he's read is building sheet on. if we were told to suffer from that every with project that, that we actually go to so shut off on the not receiving train level one over. well, i think that's a good. let me go to a draw on that point there. ok, let's talk about this suffering ok, but it's not the it, this is an elite driven war in the west. this is what they want. this is a proxy war against russia. ukraine is a footnote and all of this. and so we have to suffer, but not the people to make the decisions don't suffer. everybody else does. and that's what makes this conflict different for the west, because nobody really suffered for afghanistan or iraq in the west. ok. but now it's all coming home and you have to suffer, but we're not going to suffer. go ahead in london. so it will not let me go to london here in london. will you absolutely right pizza,

but at the same time we have to bear in mind that we are a collective society. so in europe, in europe, in european union, we are complicit in this great life. i mean, we are talking about the politicians that they lied to us. but what about the economist? what about the public intellectuals, what about the journalist and economists who are perfectly aware of what is happening and they are complicit and taking part in this great lie. i mean, no one in the new in the western newspapers, meetings, mainstream newspapers, and intellectual public intellectuals or they have a rise and a voice against it. i mean, everyone is just supporting it because because of the, you know, indoctrination with this liberal indoctrination throughout the years here in european union, in united kingdom and across the west. some of the very intelligent when i was use

the last you tell a citation calling, intelligent he had idiots. people was, you know, well versed in economics, in politics in geopolitics, are still believing that it is worth suffering or to, to achieve some, you know, it was already goal, which is, which is not going to be a good area. i'm glad you brought this up. give me just ask you real quickly here before i go to michael, you know, particularly with this crisis that's been generated in ukraine, i am really sick and tired of smart people saying really stupid things. ok. and it's empirically provable. ok, michael, i mean you're the economist here. europe is decided to de industrialize. is that a good idea? i mean, that lack of competitiveness. i mean, it is a want to become

a backwater and it talk about washington winning. do they want to win a part of the world that used to be rich? that is growing, that is going to become very, very poor very, very quickly if they don't change course michael in new york. well, either have not been official critiques of supporting ukraine. other financial times and the other papers have made it very clear that are in england, the cost of heating your home is going to go up. $505000.00 pounds per year. they've said half of the pumps in england, they're going to have to close. they haven't talked about the industrial isaac, they're talking 1st of all about forcing most of the waging population into death or is simply unable to heat the homes. they're talking about closing down much of the consumer economy in germany, they're talking about closing. they've closed down the german steel industry. they've because he still uses energy. they've closed down the fertilizer we talk

before. they've turned cold down. they get glass industry. italy is especially hardly heard. so what the press is talking about is how europe in the industry is being dismantled and once dismantled, it cannot be started again. that's the important thing. when the steel industry company closes down, it's very hard to started up again. so we're talking about a permanent loss of markets and the americans are saying, well, we are, we're going to be the gainers. because number one, we can produce steel. we are importing all the oil from russia that we want. we control our company's own steel companies abroad. so the american control companies and her cell, michael lilian and are in let me interrupt you for a 2nd. but my hang on hang on. but you know, if this is what they're doing to europe in europe, will not be a consumer for american good. so it's kind of

a double loss here. let me show you want to jump in in paris. go ahead. well, because now they say that all the sanctions in work, you know, the russian economy can absolutely, we work in the long term. how do they know that she way should we trust that we would? i mean the problem of having the smart people in charge i dont know. you see she think hubig for example, we used to be somebody was hiding. children's book is no training academy says things like, oh oh companies are going to be banker. they were just not self or why this was your big. she doesn't know what happens. okay. they're not going to come in and they say they're going to give money with others. and when they come from, they're going to kind more money and printing money or, or his taxes. and one of these things are going to solve the fact that never lack of energy. and the lack of energy comes, i mean, why did it cause the way to destroy the, the nuclear energy industry, meaning transit, the cleans, managed to get well the most that lands and technology did round since you did your

energy, this is, i'm sorry to say it is a religion, i mean, you know, there, well, it shall, is harmony the areas as i have a whole of the fascinating where. but then when michael, where does this come from? i mean, it sounds like an ideological obsess and, and how, i mean, damn the facts. i mean i, this is what i can't, i can't get my head around this. ok. i mean, you know, the, everyone is aware of what's going on in the real economy here. but there is no policy. should you have this list trust? i mean, oh my god, they're going from bad to worse in the u. k. i mean, this is a craven choice. that's what makes this so bizarre. michael, it is it the logical, but they have also calculated how the united states will gain a from france. you mentioned the magic word bankruptcy. the real losers in this will be many of the backs and euro, because the banks are going to have many of their customers defaulting. their already fallen bank that so what we're talking about is not simply did the

realization, but a bank raises the americans now have a chat to come in and i have the american banks by the european bank. so what this is? yes, it's going to lock that europe down, the americans can maintain control. they're not really concerned about losing the consumer markets. they're concerned about control and control of other countries. and they imagine that this will somehow strengthen their diplomatic position by being able to control europe. so if they any ology is not simply anti russian li, idiology is one wanting to control all the rest of the world. because if you cannot control it, they might do something that the americans don't like. that's the mentality that theology at work here. yeah, it doesn't have much to do with people, does it? i mean they, they, that's not the least of their concerns. there are gentlemen, i'm going to jump in here. we're going to go to a short break. and after that short break, we'll continue our discussion on the crisis in europe state with our team

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a with a personal number here with you in the united states has always had a variety of tools to use and tax on other countries economic sanctions are, are often just the beginning. another thing you like to do is place some military pressure on the countries that you're talking about

and there has to be an effort to demonize that country and the leader of that country. we have a responsibility for the whole world and we need to make room for the rest. because without us, there will be 2 . a doubles are going to put well, talk about a week

with a lawyer, issue, somebody over there for those with property over you look, are you up boiled up with it. yeah, and i do so as you know that way, if you don't mind ah,

welcome back. across stock were all things are considered on payroll a bell to remind you we're discussing the crisis in europe. ah. okay, let's go back to our guest in paris. i'd like to quote something live the french president, mclaren said a few days ago. frances, that a quote tipping point in the country is as essentially, as i am facing now, quote, in error of abundance coming to an end. that's an extraordinary thing for a major western leader to say, basically that the show is over live with less are abundance are the, the, the what the, what we presented to the world as a model has come to an end. i mean, how did that guy get reelected, how the end of these people get out again, elected or reelected? when you say the era of abundance is over? because the global south doesn't believe that. that's why they're continuing to buy fossil fuels because they want their future to be prosperous. but europe is given

up. john, how do you explain that? well, i guess it does. it does provoke many negative reactions. since they have 10000000 people in france will, even though the poverty line. and of course, again, as i said, there was no, not the world of apology or the fact that this is a result of the sanctions or the now even that he's or he's or that the sanctions and the window sanctions we're thinking of was going to be f, a t when there with that, we're going to some of the haitians, we're going to suffer that you see on the edges aspect. i think there is also the question of german evangelism, which of friends on to understand. i mean, the germans only is a thing has in the back of their mind, the sort of prevents from world war 2, which was also eventually we're one if you remember. but sure it mean in russia and g, the revenge did not come home. the old conservative hi mrs shoe house, et cetera. he came from the progressive,

the games in the social democrats who against the nuclear build up in the eighty's on the. busy for the trees in the did they take, taking gorbachev's another. so we know thinking that during and hours a peaceful counseling, we can only leave together happily thereafter. and of course, what happens now is that germany wanted control over the whole of you or he and you look against russia, who's with you. so by the way, and of course they are miscalculated or the name of the idea that the result would be. well, so favorable to them because they seem to destroy the economy in that, of course, not going to be the low a strength of them. but they suddenly thought they were going to a show, and in a sense, get them to lunch and the revenge king as a seat on the more aggressive and should be pajama treatment missing until that of his his or monsoon. cuz this is like, your 1st of all of these guys, the russians are really good on,

nothing going on. and he's also decided that they don't have the height that the americans have the french german. if the french, german, english, my know, it was in another county were subjected to the treatment that are configured when the people of the dunbar, se hutchins, for 8 years, it will take 8 years the british and they did the full to minus one. right. and you had to get over the americans at the canada because they were american students, american medical students, their own will last the day before as well. i mean, shall i have a policy here? mackenzie is, is, is, is there a calling card here in a michael, i want to reflect upon what my crown said. because this improves a without a doubt in my mind that neil liberalism has collapsed for the interests of the vast majority. the people that it rolls over, i mean, that's an admission, that's an admission right there. and what is it talk about? considering what john had to say, what, what, what it has to say about european unity in western solidarity. i don't see it at

all. i mean, if the elite lose all this, they don't care, it's there to turn off the lights, that it's really a very, very cynical approach. go ahead, michael. when you say that the abundance is over, what that means is it's time for an austerity program. and i m f us therapy program . and the real question is, what are africa and south america and south asia going to do? are they going to be a part of this? or are they going to say, we need an alternative to austerity program. so there's no need of all for the era of abundance. and for us there's no technological problem. there is a military and a financial problem. and the problem of american policy that brought this about the problem is, well, china, russia, india, and iran, and other neighboring countries create a set of alternative institutions to the american neo liberal. i. m f and world

bank. and they are, they going to create a new kind of an economy on different lines from the west. that really is what the question is. and so europe is giving a demonstration of how not to run a country. and i'm, i hope that other parts of the world are looking at this and say, there is an alternative, margaret thatcher was wrong. and a, russia, china, india, and other countries to create an alternative set of institutions independent from dollar diplomacy. i think that's very much already happening. we have bricks and so many other organizations that it's, it's in to time. and this is a, an important catalyst to move it along further because it, because of sanctions and secondary sanctions, nobody wants to get involved in that. you know, the, the, the fee on that comes out of washington only serves their interests and no $1.00 else is just, you know, is there any way, hey, i, maybe this is a silly question, but is there any way back to undo this on ring this bell was craven choice,

the europeans have taken because, you know, it, the weather's cooling down here in moscow is going to be called here pretty soon. and what happens in the east where the rise just goes to the west. it's only a matter of time. go ahead and embarrass of business. as i told you before, the problem with these european, the decision maker with india helping union you, there are no legitimacy whatsoever. the goal or chelsea, lawson will like that. what the role and things of them had legitimacy or historical reason, but these people are not elected, never even, even my cause some sort of support or minority support. but for some people with these people who have been elected to their only reason to be there is they're expecting they're supposed to be expert again. but if they were complete the home, then they can go begin the street with there's nothing that legitimize them. and so therefore, it the reverse geared more the, the come, i mean,

i think it's only going to go wrong, co testing the street, but the processing, the streets must be pretty, pretty serious because you know, they mobilize the police and the army. and so you see what they do in holland already with the farmers. i mean, it's going to be pretty tough because before they had made the sheet before the admit and of course they keep on saying, are the, you know, they suggest emergency, which is working on a single offensive care covington and getting a sense is over and over i mean, it's going to be very bloody oh is going to change but, but i agree and elicited are the other thing with the sanctions that not only they not work, it the destroyer economic, they don't is going to russian calling in the bush, russia to be ever closer to china and to india, they were joined, maneuver, hook being that long and china would have joined. i knew yeah. how dream that there would be a push ma between turkey and syria, or which in saudi arabia had all these things happening now as

a result of question, diplomacy. and that's the worst, the worst nightmare series on the fringe of europe in china getting close to a single nightmare. and they're provoking, that's what we'll do. everything that can go home for them and i'll be there with them. but we don't have that. we have to wait part, let's go back to michael in new york. well, where do we go from here? because there seems to be an admission of defeat. they don't have any tools left in their toolbox. they're essentially telling everyone we have to suffer. and they have no vision for the future. i mean, what is going on, you know, after the conflict is a come to an end. what then sanctions will remain. they have no, they have no plan. and particularly since they would rate haste, went into this, not thinking of the consequences i have. no, i have no hope that these people know what they're doing. moving forward, michael. well, it's obvious now that you cannot simply roll things back and go back to the way things were before and say ok, russia, go back to your boundary. let's just base the u. s. officials have said the ukraine

war is only a catalyst for what's going to be a 20 year war. and the 20 year war is going to be how long that we think it will take for us to take over russia, china, india, and iran. and the whole world, and until we do that, we're not going to stop. we're not going backwards. we're not going to paste, we're going to continue the ukraine. we're to continue to believe russia, every ukrainian who dies, absorbs at least one bullet. and that's going to leave russia with one less less, but we're going to continue to fight. and this is only the opening line, the opening a strategic ploy in what's going to be a long, long, ongoing fight. and so it's up to the rest of the world to say, what are we going to do to respond to all this the, the west. the only has a plan that it wants to control how, what is our plan going to be de alternative to the whole post more neo liberal

order? that is and left us in debt to the i m. f. in debt, the bondholders with money, we can pray. now that the oil prices and food prices are going up, what are we going to do to create a new world? because we can't go back to the old world that that is over. so we're in really a new development where countries are going to be making their own. make them michael, that there's one little wrinkle in all of this and i'll get a shout here. what happens when people say no to what michael said? because the global south is saying no, and the level of administration is only increasing in europe. no is going to be the most obvious answer, but then that's when you have an authoritarian reaction. control of the military of the police, a big tech, social media. we've seen it all before. i'll give the last part to you, john and paris. go ahead. we're a leg a year for 20 year loan world because that's exactly what's happening in afghanistan with the success that we could observe last year. so i didn't have them

well if they wants to take a check engine and other counties as to what they have done against them. you know, taking the good news of the listing agent just joined georgia bush, most of the world. and then with judge russians, and that's happened to germany. austin aging on 22nd of june 1941. so it's a well, it went, which it's very interesting here is that there seems to be no, no historical memory of things of what goes where michael, you know, last 30 seconds to you, they don't have any knowledge of history. that's why they're groping into the future. 25 seconds to you. well, that's exactly the point though, all of this has happened before, and the only solution is going to be to make a clean slate. and to start over again, and you can start all over again. if you let united states have veto power over

anything you do as it has in the world bank and the i m f, you have to start a new organization without us speed up our end. the other is an alternative, but saying no, isn't enough. so not beyond saying no, you have to say we, there is another way of doing things and you have to develop a whole set of shadow institution and alternative institutions. that's going to be the next stage that will evolve over the next. i think it's happening as we speak here. a fascinating discussion. i'm sorry, we lost our guest in london. many thanks them i guess in paris in, in new york. and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at ortiz, see you next time remember? ah ah, a

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wanted to feel good as the boys are new to me with me for a correspondent comes on the ukranian, sell a lot on the front lines, rushing through the military. twice a week back mostly forces in ukraine called i'll talk with the attempted counts, who are sent to visit with jerome up more weapons supplies from the west, south, according to russia's un envoy with a reflection on imperialism and colonialism in the wake of the british queen death without wage in africa, a video from the b b c, claiming london.