she's going to support your brain. well, imagine the politicians saying they don't care what the voters say that are she's in there and she is going to do what she's agreed with the united states to do 2 of the boycott. russia, let me, let me go to let me go to parent john. i mean, how do you explain that? i mean, i agree with everything that michael just said there. i'm but i thought europe and america were comrades in arms when it comes to their proxy war against russia. but, you know, the, the, the, the 2 players to get the short end of the stick are obviously ukraine and europe. but, you know, in europe that seems to continue to cow to washington when it's not in there, no interest whatsoever. is there any explanation for that? go ahead in paris. well, i want to emphasize, you know, the 15 has spoken about the impact of flies and there was a somebody whose name i forgotten were one. we said that the problem in was that the british and like to the media. and then when he was there, he did the newspaper. i mean,

the amount of lies that no been fed to when i think i believe by many of apple editions and lead to destruction is enormous. first of all, they say that the war was uncovered. it was london, caldwell was a military b, w. so chooser job played in one's game. human volcano is elaine simply, a commentator has said that repeatedly since 2014 jesse saxony went at the end of 2021 to the white house. to tell them, you know, this is going to be to will and the weight, i will say, we're not going to discuss with the russians. no, we, that's the 1st the then they say that are actually going on is going to collapse. no say that because it by then say that in the may, it was in french means a can only say that didn't collapse. now with this say, we would have to set up all democracy in so nobody said that didn't be will with the wellness that there would be any just none of the actions are going to collapse . no,

she goes yet or that you have to suffer to win the warning in what will end the war and shear. yeah. where the americans are he keesing their bees is in the county where he's read is bonding. she, we don't know if we were told to suffer from that every, with project that that was equal to. so shut off all the more pressing. trim level one over. well, i think that's a good. let me go to a draw on that point there. ok, let's talk about this suffering ok, but it's not the it, this is an elite driven war in the west. this is what they want. this is a proxy war against russia. ukraine is a footnote and all of this. and so we have to suffer, but not the people to make the decisions don't suffer. everybody else does. and that's what makes this conflict different for the west, because nobody really suffered for afghanistan or iraq in the west. ok. but now it's all coming home and you have to suffer, but we're not going to suffer. go ahead in london. so it will not let me go to london here in london. will you absolutely right pizza, but at the same time we have to bear in mind that we are

a collective society. so in europe, in europe, in europe, in union, we are complicit in this great life. i mean, we are talking about the politicians that they aligned to us. but what about the economist? what about the public intellectuals, what about the journalist and economists who are perfectly aware of what is happening and they are complicit and taking part in this great lie. i mean, no one in the, in the western newspapers, maintenance mainstream newspapers and intellectual public intellectuals or they have a rise in a voice against it. i mean, everyone is just supporting it because because of the, you know, indoctrination with this liberal indoctrination throughout the years here in european union, in united kingdom and across the west. some of the very intelligent when i was use

the last you a citation calling intelligent. he had idiots. people was, you know, well versed in economics in politics in geopolitics, are still believing that it is worth suffering, you know, to, to achieve some, you know, it was already go goal, which is, which is not going to be a good adrian, adrian. i'm glad you brought this up. give me just ask you real quickly here before i go to michael, you know, particularly with this crisis that's been generated in ukraine, i am really sick and tired of smart people saying really stupid things. ok. and it's empirically provable. ok, michael, i mean you're the economist here. europe is decided to de industrialize. is that a good idea? i mean, the lack of competitiveness. i mean, it is a want to become a backwater and it talk about washington winning. do they want to win a part of the world that used to be rich?

that is growing, that is going to become very, very poor very, very quickly if they don't change course michael in new york. well, hi. there have not been official critiques of supporting ukraine other financial times and the other papers have made it very clear that out in england, the cost of heating your home is going to go up. $505000.00 pounds per year. they've said half of the pumps in england, they're going to have to close. they haven't talked about the industrialized. they're talking 1st of all about forcing most of the way jamming population into death or is simply unable to heat the homes. they're talking about closing down much of the consumer economy in germany, they're talking about closing. they've closed down the german steel industry. they've because he still uses energy. they've closed down the fertilizer we talk before they turn to close down the get glass industry. italy is especially hardly

heard, so. busy what the press is talking about is how europe in the industry is being dismantled and once dismantled, it cannot be started again. that's the important thing. when the steel industry company closes down, it's very hard to started up again. so we're talking about a permanent loss of markets and the americans are saying, well, we are, we're going to be the gainers. because number one, we can produce steel. we are importing all the oil from russia that we want. we control our company's own steel companies abroad. so the american controlled companies in his l. michael lilian and are in let me just interrupt you for a 2nd. but my hang on, hang on. but you know, if this is what they're doing to europe in europe, will not be a consumer for american good. so it's kind of a double loss here. let me show you, want to jump in in paris. go ahead word. because now they say that all the

sanctions in work are, you know, the russian economy will collapse with me. we work in the long term. how do they know that she way should we trust that we would? i mean the problem of having the smart people in charge, i dont know. you see she think hubig for example, used to be somebody was hiding. children's book is no clinical m. yahoo says things like all, all companies are going to be banker. they were just not so far away. okay. so is your big, she doesn't know what happens. okay. they're not going to come in in. they say they're going to give money, but will this, when it comes from, they're going to kind more money and printing mother or haystacks is one of these things are going to solve the fact that their lack of energy and the lack of energy comes. i mean, why did it cause way to destroy the, the nuclear energy industry? i mean, in transit, we change manage to get it well the most that lands and technology dead world since you did your energy, this is, i'm sorry to say it is a religion. i mean, you know,

there's, well, if i shall, is happy the areas as i have a whole of the fascinating where, but then when michael, where does this come from? i mean, it sounds like an ideological obsessive how i mean, damn the facts. i mean, i, this is what i can't, i can't get my head around this. ok. i mean, you know, the, everyone is aware of what's going on in the real economy here. but there is no policy . should you have this list trust? i mean, oh my god, they're going from bad to worse in the u. k. i mean, this is a craven choice. that's what makes this so bizarre, michael, it is it the logical, but they have also calculated how the united states will gain a from france. you mentioned the magic word, bankruptcy. the real losers in the us will be many of the backs and euro because the banks are going to have many of their customers defaulting. their already fallen bank that so what we're talking about is not simply did the realization, but a bank crisis. the americans now have a chat to come in and i have the american banks by the european banks. so what this

is, yes, it's going to knock europe down, the americans can maintain control. they're not really concerned about losing the consumer markets. they're concerned about control and control of other countries. and they imagine that this will somehow strengthen their diplomatic position by being able to control europe. so it, the etiology is not simply anti russian. the idiology is one wanting to control all the rest of the world. because if you cannot control it, they might do something that the americans don't like. that's the mentality that he ology at work here. yeah, it doesn't have much to do with people, does it? i mean they, they, that son who the least of their concerns are high gentlemen. i'm going to jump in here. we're going to go to a short break. and after that short break, we'll continue our discussion on the crisis in europe. stay with our team. ah,

i was told before the lawyer my to read on a more there was a call which in there, but at the moment today in that area. so, but there isn't any it was, this is on the horse. they don't get in a residential am i missing the list? i'm wondering is do it, but about the images to them. that's really capital e a and machine machine a my will come and get a slight bit of air e and by the show of the roof. so john wooten, you sound like a bottle to jelly those. see what a deal on that because i like it that was in the to me. okay. yes. special c merchant, the news, i mean eating a bushel team that were like, well, mission to molar by new marsh with them the words and why do it was model shows

would that if machine is sort of was may complex from mac mall but don't know, but i feel good to shun or my less the boy on go to die, get it with the she just has a shift. and if there's on this a balance of each other, when you get a while and get as well as a safe, but you, you almost eliminate about that. we did lose this and that machine that but on, you know, make complex. yeah. and then wellness using the deal, and now you've started testing. you busted, although i mostly in the to school. it was a boy. i mean, we have will be looked at a bugger. we're watching chest this to know, but i'm meeting you going a little, but the more than a motion. that edition. okay. okay. will i bring it in? and what part of those are the virginia before the he'd sierra video, they're going to go with the young one going by way. motion either way, when you say right, but it to me got a little local bar tours. was it your woodland ceiling?

emotionally. i wish i was a boss. notice there. yeah. it was really ryan if it actually principal belonging as alicia. be able to talk. so i mean you come over to see whether it was a street mia? no action was a shuttle. so is it a sewer kind of stuff to get this one to refer for see where mm. ebersole or a bill that i saw was theresa. i showed a man that owners are broken up. little girl said she, he had the same it about them. i was about the national bank. i was telling him that for the 1st time in history, an entire countries culture has been cancelled the very modern weapon council of culture. really desert wonder global sheffield milo. so we thought in when william

frog here just me sitting there, i know it with the phrase now particularly refers to counseling russian culture. yet i know what it could be at the fuel because it has yet to when you're miles for fuel pushing over your child, mozilla, that go that much to lose temperature, random e. normally, what rushes created over the past 1500 years is now questioned, harshly condemned, reviled, and rejected. his sort of like a funny at the bull of bramble, there's a lot closer on a whole bunch. thank you said a little short list. joining total condemnation, gross daily, and now includes dostoevsky to cascade and shostakovich that i need to you. call it cool enough, but yes, she says that with that you do

a lot with ah, welcome back. across stock were all things are considered on peter lavelle to remind you we're discussing the crisis in europe. ah. okay, let's go back to our guest in paris. i'd like to quote something that the french president mc kron said a few days ago. frances, that

a quote tipping point in the country is as essentially as i am facing now, quote, in error of abundance coming to an end. that's an extraordinary thing for a major western leader to say, basically that the show is over live with less are abundance or the, the, the what the, what we presented to the world as a model has come to an end. i mean, how did that guy get reelected, how the end of these people, you know, again, elected or reelected when you say the era of abundance is over? because the global south doesn't believe that. that's why they're continuing to buy fossil fuels because they want their future to be prosperous. but europe is given up. john, how do you explain that? well, i guess it does, it does provoke many negative reactions and they have 10000000 people in france will, even though the poverty line. and of course, again, as i said, there was no, not the world of apology for the fact that this is a result of the sanctions on the now even that these are his,

are the sanctions and the window sanctions we're thinking was going to be if a team in there with that, we're going to some of the options we're going to suffer that you see on the edges aspect. i think jason's or the question of german lunches them with your friends on the understand. i mean, the germans, always a thing had, will the back of there, man, the sort of revengeful world war 2, which was also eventually we're one of you, i remember, but sure it mean in russia as g, the revenge did not come home. the old conservative hi, this is to shed house, et cetera, game from the progressive the games in the social democrats who against the nuclear build up in the eighty's on the. busy for the priest and the did the trick taking go, but jeff, another. so we knock thinking that during an hours a peaceful counting, we can all live together happily thereafter. and of course, what happens now is that germany wanted control over the whole of you. all he and

your home against russia with you, so by the way, and of course they are miscalculated, are a little deal that the result would be no so favorable to them because they seem to destroy their income. and mean that's of course not going to be the low as pranks on them, but they certainly thought they were going to, oh, sure. and in a sense, get them to lunch on the revenge king as a see from the more aggressive michigan with my team met with delta dental of of he says amazon because this is a give us one of these guys. the russians are really good on nothing thing. and then he's also decided that they don't have the high that the americans have the french germans wish. the french, german, english, my know, it was in another county were subjected to the treatment that i can stick with on the people on the dunbar. so visiting hutchins for 8 years, it will take 8 years, the position bid, the fulton lines one. right. and you had to get over the americans at the canada

because they were american students, american medical students, their own will last the day before as well. i mean, shall i, if i have parker, see here, mackenzie is is, is, is there a calling card? here in a michael, i want to reflect upon what my crown said. because this, this improves a without a doubt in my mind that neil liberalism has collapsed for the interests of the vast majority. the people that it rolls over. i mean, that's an admission, that's an admission right there. and what does it talk about? considering what john had to say, what, what, what it has to say about european unity in western solidarity. i don't see it at all. i mean, if the elite lose all this, they don't care, it's there to turn off the lights. that it's, it's really a very, very cynical approach. go ahead, michael. when you say that the abundance is over, what that means is it's time for an austerity program, and i am a foster already program. and the real question is, what are africa and south america?

and south asia going to do, are they going to be a part of this, or are they going to say, we need an alternative to austerity program, so there's no need at all for the ear of abundance. and for us there is no technological problem. there is a military and a financial problem and the problem of american policy that brought this about the problem is, well, china, russia, india, and iran and other neighboring countries create a set of alternative institutions to the american neo liberal. i. m f and world bank and they, are they going to create a new kind of an economy on different lines from the west. that really is what the question is. and so europe is giving a demonstration of how not to run a country. and i'm, i hope that other parts of the world are looking at this and say, there is an alternative, margaret thatcher was wrong. and we're,

it's up to russia, china, india, and other countries to create an alternative set of institutions independent from ballard diploma. so i think that's very much already happening. we have bricks and so many other organizations that it's, it's in to time. and this is a, an important catalyst to move it along further because it, because of sanctions and secondary sanctions, nobody wants to get involved in that. you know, the, the fear that comes out of washington only serves their interests. and no one else is, shall you know, is there any way, hey, i, maybe this is a silly question, but is there any way back to undo this on ring? this bell was craven choice that the europeans have taken because, you know, it, the weather's cooling down here in moscow is going to be called here pretty soon. and what happens in the east where the rise just goes to the west. it's only a matter of time, go ahead and embarrass of business. as i told you before,

the program with these european, the decision maker with india helping union you, there are no legitimacy whatsoever. the goal, or churchill or so we will like that. what the role and things of them as a legitimacy or historical reason, but these people are not elected, never even, even my cause. so sort of support or minority support, but for some people with these people have not been elected to their only reason to be there is they're expecting they're supposed to be expert again. but in the we're, we're completely hong, then they can go begin the st with, there's nothing. what legitimize them. and so therefore it the reverse geared more than the come. i mean, i think it's only going to go from co test in the street, but the processing, the streets must be pretty, pretty serious because you know, they mobilize the police and the army. and so you see what they do in holland already with the farmers. i mean, it's going to be pretty tough because before they had made the sheet before they had with and of course they keep on. so the, you know, they suggest emergency,

which is working on a single transitional care covington and getting a sense is already over. i mean, it's going to be very bloody oh is going to change but, but i agree. elicited the other thing with the sanction. certainly they not work with the destroyer economy. they don't, is quite russian calling in the bush, russia to be ever closer to china. and to india, they were joined, maneuver, hook being that lingering china would have joined. i knew how dreamed that there would be a push ma, between turkey and syria, or which in saudi arabia read all these things happen now as a result of the flesh on diplomacy. and that's the worst thing from the worst night necessarily from the point of european jana getting close to russia is the single nightmare. and they're provoking that so they will do everything that can go home for them. and uh, we do it either over, but we don't have that we have to with anson. i let's go back to michael in new york. well, where do we go from here?

because there seems to be an admission of defeat. they don't have any tools left in their toolbox. they're essentially telling everyone we have to suffer. and they have no vision for the future. i mean, what is going on, you know, after the conflict is and come to an end. what then sanctions will remain. they have no, they have no plan, and particularly since they would rate haste, went into this. not thinking of the consequences i have. no, i have no hope that these people know what they're doing. moving forward, michael. well, it's obvious now that you cannot simply roll things back and go back to the way things were before and say ok, russia, go back to your boundaries. let's just paste the u. s. officials have said the ukraine war is only a catalyst for what's going to be a 20 year war. and their 20 year war is going to be how long we think it will take for us to take over russia, china, india, and iran, and the whole world. and until we do that, we're not going to stop. we're not going backwards. we're not going to paste,

we're going to continue the ukraine. we're to continue to lead russia. every ukrainian who dies, absorbs at least one bullet. and that's going to leave russia with one lead less, but we're going to continue to fight. and this is only the opening line, the opening a strategic ploy in what's going to be a long, long on going fight. and so it's up to the rest of the world to say, what are we going to do to respond to all this the west. the only has a plan that it wants to control how, what is our plan going to be to create an alternative, to the whole post more neo liberal order. that is and left us in debt to the i m f . in the bondholders with money we can pay now that the oil prices and food prices are going up. what are we going to do to create a new world? because we can't go back to the old world that that is over. so we're in really a new development where countries are going to be making their own michael,

that there's one little wrinkle in all this and then i'll get a shout here. what happens when people say no to what michael said? because the global south is saying no, and the, the level of administration is only increasing in europe. no is going to be the most obvious answer, but then that's when you have an authoritarian reaction. control of the military of the police of big tech, social media. we've seen it all before. the last part to you jobs in paris, go ahead. we're like the year for 20 year long world, because that's exactly what's happening in afghanistan. we just says that we could observe last year. so i didn't, i wish them well if they want to take a shot chain in jan. other counties as to what they have done against, you know, eating the with the listing agent, just regular george bush, the world. and then a judge russians. and that happened to germany was changing on

22nd of june 1941. so it's a repeat say well, it went, which is very interesting here is that there seems to be no, no historical memory of things of what goes where michael, you know, last 30 seconds to you, they don't have any knowledge of history. that's why they're groping into the future. 25 seconds to you. well, that's exactly the point though, all of this has happened before, and the only solution is going to be to make a clean slate and start all over again. and you can start all over again if you let united states have veto power over anything you do as it has in the world bank and the i m f. you have to start a new organization without you a bit of power. and the other is an alternative, but saying no isn't enough. so not beyond saying no, you have to say we, there is another way of doing things and you have to develop

a whole set of shadow institution and alternative institutions. that's going to be the next stage that will evolve over the next. i think it's happening as we speak here. for fascinating discussion, i'm sorry, we lost our guest in london. many thanks, i guess in person in new york. and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at r t c next time. remember prospect with ah a

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