is europe attempting suicide? ah, cross sucking europe in crisis and joined by my guest, michael hudson in new york. he is a professor of economics at the university, missouri, kansas city, as well as author of forgive them their debts in paris, we have his own brick mall. he is a political commentator. and in london we cross or ed, real consulting. he's is founder of a k consulting and foreign affairs analyst, or a gentleman cross sack rules in effect. that means you can jump any time you want, and i always appreciate. let's go to michael 1st in new york, i'm titling this program attempted suicide given what's going on the last 6 months in europe in the western world in general. do you, is that an appropriate title for what's going on? well, i'm not sure that they are realizing that it's suicide. it's more so they're following a u. s. policy, which is the u. s. wants to kill europe,

but really think it over the americans are the great beneficiaries of this, especially the oil industry that is cleaning up as the oil prices go up and that's strengthening the dollar. the euro's going down, the british pound is absolutely punching it's right now. $1.15 this morning and the, apparently, the europe is run by a nato amount by the elected politicians. and miss bare bach of the foreign secretary said yesterday in poland, but she doesn't care what the european voters month. she's going to support your brain. well, imagine the politicians saying they don't care what the voters say that she's in there and she is going to do what she's agreed with the united states to do to boycott russia. let me, let me go to going to go to parents, john. i mean, how do you explain that? i mean, i agree with everything that michael just said there. i'm, but i thought europe in america were comrades in arms,

and it comes to their proxy war against russia. but, you know, the, the, the, the 2 players to get the short end of the stick are obviously ukraine and europe. but, you know, europe, this seems to continue to cow to washington when it's not in there, no interest whatsoever. is there any explanation for that? go ahead in paris. i want to emphasize, you know, the 15 has spoken about jim bio flies and there was a good one. is it that the ball brimming? was that the addition to the media? and then with the newspaper, i mean the amount of nice that being said to with additions and lead to restriction syndrome us. first of all, this said that the war was uncovered. it was london. pablo was a military been diagnosed or choose or job ladings, game human mouth shane that was the main simple. it is a commentator. i say that repeatedly since 2014 jeffrey sachs. if you went at the

end of 2021 to the white house to tell them, you know, this is going to be to war and the white house, we're not going to discuss with the russians, nor we. that's the 1st the then they said that the national economy is going to collapse. they will say that because it up by then says that the mayor was the french means to have it for we can only say that didn't collapse. now would they say we would have to set up a democracy in so nobody said that didn't be nobody wellness that there would be any just none of the oceans are going to collapse. no, she goes just or that you have to suffer to win the warning in them. what will end the war and shear? yeah, well the americans are a cheesy, they're busy in the county where he's read is bonding. she with, if we were told to suffer from that every with that we actually go to so shut off all the more pressing. trim level one over. well, i think that's a good. let me go to a draw on that point there. ok,

let's talk about this suffering ok, but it's not the it, this is an elite driven war in the west. this is what they want. this is a proxy war against russia. ukraine is a footnote and all of this. and so we have to suffer, but not the people to make the decisions don't suffer. everybody else does. and that's what makes this conflict different for the west, because nobody really suffered for afghanistan or iraq in the west. ok. but now it's all coming home and you have to suffer, but we're not going to suffer. go ahead in london. so it will not let me go to london here. go ahead london, will you absolutely right, pizza, but at the same time we have to bear in mind that we are a collective society. so in europe, in europe, in european union, we are complicit in this great life. i mean, we are talking about the politicians that they lied to us. but what about the economist? what about the public intellectuals, what about the journalist and economist who are perfectly aware of what is

happening and they are complicit and taking part in this great lie. i mean, no one in the, in the western newspapers, maintenance mainstream newspapers and intellectual public intellectuals or they have a rise in a voice against it. i mean, everyone is just supporting it because because of the, you know, indoctrination with this liberal indoctrination throughout the years here in european union, in united kingdom and across the west. some of the very intelligent when i was use the last in a citation calling. intelligent yet idiots. people was, you know, well versed in economics, in politics in geopolitics, are still believing that it is worth suffering or to, to achieve some, you know, it was already go goal, which is, which is not going to be a good,

a drill. i'm glad you brought this up. give me just ask you real quickly here before i go to michael, you know, particularly with this crisis that's been generated in ukraine, i am really sick and tired of smart people saying really stupid things, okay? and it's empirically provable. ok, michael, i mean you're the economist here. europe is decided to de industrialize. is that a good idea? i mean, that lack of competitiveness. i mean, it is a want to become a backwater and it talk about washington winning. do they want to win a part of the world that used to be rich? that is growing, that there's going to become very, very poor very, very quickly if they don't change course michael in new york. well, either have not been official critiques of supporting ukraine. other financial times and the other papers have made it very clear that are in england, the cost of heating your home is going to go up. $505000.00 pounds per year.

they've said half of the pumps in england, they're going to have to close. they haven't talked about the industrialization, they're talking 1st of all about forcing most of the wage in population into depth, or as simply unable to heat the homes. they're talking about closing down much of the consumer economy in germany, they're talking about closing. they've closed down the german steel industry. they've because he still uses energy. they've closed down the fertilizer we talk before they turn to close down the get glass industry. italy is especially hardly heard. so what the press is talking about is how europe in the industry is being dismantled and once dismantled, it cannot be started again. that's the important thing. when the steel industry company closes down, it's very hard to started up again. so we're talking about

a permanent loss of markets and the americans are say, well, we are, we're going to be the gainers. because number one, we can produce steel. we are importing all the oil from russia that we want. we control our company's own steel companies abroad. so the american controlled companies in his l. michael lily manager in let me interrupt you for a 2nd, but mike, hang on, hang on. but you know, if this is what they're doing to europe in europe, will not be a consumer for american good. so it's kind of a double loss here. let me show you, want to jump in in paris. go ahead word. because now they say that all the sanctions in work are, you know, the russian economy don't connect with me. we work in the long term. how do they know that he way should we trust that would mean the problem of having the smart people in charge? i dont know, you see she think hubig for example used to be somebody was hiking, children's book is no thing on the kilometers. things like all,

all companies are going to be banker. they were just not self or why. okay. so is your big, she doesn't say what happens, okay, they're not going to come in. they say they're going to give money, but we're listen when they come from, they're going to print more money than printing money or, or haste. actually, one of these things are going to solve the fact that their lack of energy and the lack of energy comes. i mean, why did it cause? where did these told the, the nuclear energy there slamming in transit. we change managed to get it. well, the most that lands and technology dead world since you did your energy, this is, i'm sorry to say it is a religion. i mean, you know, there's, well, if i shall have, even as i have a whole of the fascinating where. but then when michael, where does this come from? i mean, it sounds like an ideological obsessive how i mean, damn the facts. i mean i, this is what i can't, i can't get my head around this. ok. i mean, you know, that the, every one is aware of what's going on in the real economy here, but there is no policy. should you have this list trust?

i mean, oh my god, they're going from bad to worse in the u. k. i mean, this is a craven choice. that's what makes this so bizarre, michael, is it the logical? but they have also calculated how the united states will gain a from france. you mentioned the magic word, bankruptcy. the real losers in this will be many of the backs and euro, because the banks are going to have many of their customers defaulting. their already fallen bank that so what we're talking about is not simply did the realization, but a bank crisis. the americans now have a to come in and have the american banks by the european banks. so what this is, yes, it's going to lock you down. the americans can maintain control. they're not really concerned about losing the consumer markets. they're concerned about control and control of other countries and they imagine that this will somehow strengthen their diplomatic position by being able to control europe. so the ology is not simply

anti russian. b, l a g is wanting to control all the rest of the world because if you cannot control it, they might do something that the americans don't like. that's the mentality that the allergy at work here. yeah, it doesn't have much to do with people. does it, i mean they, they, that's not the least of their concerns. there are gentlemen, i'm going to jump in here. we're going to go to a short break. and after that short break, we'll continue our discussion on the crisis in europe. stay with ah ah ah, with

a ah ah, a little in the initial be 1 o'clock. not to get

a new stuff but by you when you do day or 2. but you also the was done those a what i see the skinny bus is the little gear medation says a gun bus a ah, welcome back. across stock. were all things considered on peter level to remind you we're discussing the crisis in europe. ah. ok, let's go back to our guests in paris. i'd like to quote something live the french president mc crohn said a few days ago. frances, at a quote tipping point in the country is as essentially as i am facing now, quote, in error of abundance coming to an end. that's an extraordinary thing for

a major western leader to say, basically that the show is over live with less are abundance are the, the, the what the, what we presented to the world as a model has come to an end. i mean, how did that guy get reelected, how the end of these people get out again, elected or reelected? when you say the era of abundance is over? because the global south doesn't believe that. that's why they're continuing to buy fossil fuels because they want their future to be prosperous. but europe is given up. john, how do you explain that? well, does it does, it does provoke many negative reactions and they have 10000000 people in france will. even though the poverty line and of course again, as i said there was no, not the world of apology for the fact that this is a result of the sanctions or the now even that the stories are that the sanctions and the window sanctions were vacant was going to be f a t when they were that we're going to shut off the high chance we're going to suffer that you see on the

edges aspect. i think there's also the question of german lunches them with your friends on to understand. i mean, the germans, all this aging has been the back of their mind. the sort of prevents from world war 2, which was also eventually we're one if you remember. but sure, it mean in tricia and g event did not come home. the old conservative jean. hi, this is to shed house, et cetera. he came from the progressive, the gains in the social democrats who against the nuclear build up in the eighty's on there. busy for the priest and the did the trick taking go, but jeff, another. so get rid of thinking. the german now is a peaceful counseling. we can all live together happily thereafter. and of course, what happens now is that germany wanted control over the whole of you. i and you hook against russia who's with you so by the way,

and of course they are miscalculated or the name of the idea that the result would be well, so favorable to them because they seem to destroy the income and me in that, of course, not going to be the low a strength of them, but they certainly thought they were going to or who hutcher and in a sense get them to lunch. and the rigans came as a seat on the mall of progressing incident with him, a treatment. this is going to lot of his, his or monsoon, cuz this is where you, 1st of all these guys, the russians are really good on, nothing going on. and he's also decided that they don't have the height that the americans have the french german. if the french, german, english, my know, it was in another county were subjected to the treatment that i can stick with on the people or the dundas obesity. hutchins for 8 years it will take 8 years. the pre dishing bid the fall to minus one. right. and you had to get over the americans at the canada because they were american students, american medical students, their own little last the day before as well. i mean, shall i have

a policy here. mccarthy is, is, is, is there a calling card here in a michael, i want to reflect upon what micron said, because this, this improves, are, without a doubt in my mind that neil liberalism has collapsed for the interests of the vast majority. the people that it rolls over, i mean, that's an admission, that's an admission right there. and what is it talk about? considering what john had to say, what, what, what it has to say about european unity in western casala dirty. i don't see it at all. i mean, if the elite lose all this, they don't care, it's there to turn off the lights, that it's really a very, very cynical approach. go ahead, michael. well, when you say that the abundance is over, what that means is it's time for and austerity program. and i m f us therapy program, and the real question is, what are africa and south america and south asia going to do? are they going to be a part of this? or are they going to say,

we need an alternative to austerity program. so there is no need at all for the ear of abundance, and for us there's no technological problem. there is a military and a financial problem. and the problem of american policy that brought this about the problem is, well, china, russia, india, and iran, and other neighboring countries create a set of alternative institutions to the american neo liberal. i. m f and world bank. and they are, they going to create a new kind of an economy on different lines from the west. that really is what the question is. and so europe is giving a demonstration of how not to run a country. and i'm, i hope that other parts of the world are looking at this and say there is an alternative margaret thatcher was wrong. a. 2 russia, china, india,

and other countries to create an alternative set of institutions independent from dollar diplomacy. i think that's very much already happening. we have bricks and so many other organizations that it's, it's in to time. and this is a, an important catalyst to move it along further because it, because of sanctions and secondary sanctions, nobody wants to get involved in that. you know, the, the a fee on that comes out of washington only serves their interests and no $1.00 else is shown here. is there any way? hey, i maybe this is a silly question, but is there any way back to undue this and ring this bell, this craven choice that the europeans have taken because, you know, it, the weather's cooling down here in moscow is going to be called here pretty soon. and what happens in the east and where the rise just goes to the west. it's only a matter of time. go ahead and pairs of business as i told you before. the problem with these european decision maker with the, in the hope in union you, there are no legitimacy whatsoever. or the goal or chelsea,

lawson. we will like that. what the role and things of them as a legitimacy or historical reason that these people are not elected level, even even my cause some sort of support or minority support that for some people with these people who have been elected to their only reason to be there is they're expecting they're supposed to be expert again, but he did were completely home then they can go begin the street with there's nothing that legitimize them. and so therefore it is just, you know, they become, i mean, i think it's only going to go from contesting the street. but the, possessing the streets must be pretty, pretty serious because you know, they mobilize the police and the army and so on. you see what they do in holland already with the farmers. i mean, it's going to be pretty tough because before they had made the sheet before they admit, and of course they keep on saying, are the, you know, the suggestion or counseling which is working on a single, offensive care covington and getting a sense easily over i mean it's going to be very bloody

oh is going to change but, but i agree. elicited or the other thing with the sanctions that not only did not work it the destroyer economic, they don't is going to russian calling in the bush, russia to be ever closer to china and to india. they will join maneuver, hook being that movie and china would have joined i knew yeah. how dream that there would be a push ma between turkey and syria, or which in saudi arabia had all these things happen now as a result of the flesh on diplomacy. and that's the worst thing from the worst night necessarily on the plains of europe in china, getting close to russia is a single nightmare. and they're provoking, that's what they will do, everything that can go home for them. and i'll be there with even hulu. but we don't have one that's messed with johnson, or let's go back to michael in new york. well, where do we go from here? because there seems to be an admission of defeat. they don't have any tools left in their toolbox. they're essentially telling everyone we have to suffer and they have

no vision for the future. i mean, what is going on, you know, after the conflict is and come to an end. what then sanctions will remain. they have no, they have no plan. and particularly since they would rate haste, went into this, not thinking of the consequences i have. no, i have no hope that these people know what they're doing. moving forward, michael. well, it's obvious now that you cannot simply roll things back and go back to the way things were before and say ok, russia, go back to your boundaries. let's just paste the u. s. officials of said, the ukraine war is only a catalyst for what's going to be a 20 year war. and their 20 year war is going to be how long we think it will take for us to take over russia, china, india, and iran, and the whole world. and until we do that, we're not going to stop. we're not going backwards. we're not going to paste, we're going to continue the ukraine war to continue to leave russia. every ukrainian who dies,

absorbs at least one bullet. and that's going to leave russia with one lead less. but we're going to continue to fight. and this is only the opening line, the opening a strategic ploy in what's going to be a long, long on going fight. and so it's up to the rest of the world to say, what are we going to do to respond to? well this, the west only has a plan that it wants to control how. what is our plan going to be to create an alternative to the whole post more neo liberal order? that is a left us in debt to the i m. f in debt to bondholders with money we can pray. now that the oil prices and food prices are going up. what are we going to do to create a new world? because we can't go back to the old world that that is over. so we're in really a new development where countries are going to be making their own michael, that there's one little wrinkle in all of this and then i'll get a shout here. what happens when people say no to what michael said?

because the global south is saying no, and the level of administration is only increasing in europe. know is going to be the most obvious answer, but then that's when you have an authoritarian reaction. control of the military of the police of big tech, social media. we've seen it all before. i'll get last part 2 jobs in paris. go ahead with a 20 year loan wall because that's exactly what's happening in afghanistan. we discussed that we could observe last year, so i didn't use them. well, if they want to take a check engine and other countries as to what they have done against, you know, eating the news of the listing agent to speak to george bush, most of the world and with judge russians. and that's happened to germany. was generally june 22nd of june, 1941,

soon to repeat it. well, it went, which is very interesting here is that there seems to be no, no historical memory of things of what goes where michael, you know, last 30 seconds to you, they don't have any knowledge of history. that's why they're groping into the future. 25 seconds to you. well, that's exactly the point though, all of this has happened before, and the only solution is going to be to make a clean slate and start all over again. and you can start all over again. if you let united states have veto power over anything you do as it has in the world bank and the i m f, you have to start a new organization without you beat up our and the other is an alternative. but saying no, isn't enough, not to be, i'm saying, no, you have to say we, there is another way of doing things and you have to develop a whole set of shadow institution, an alternative institutions that's going to be the next stage that will evolve over the next i think it's happening as we speak here. for fascinating discussion,

i'm sorry, we lost our guest in london. many thanks to my guess in person in new york, and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at r t c. next time. remember talk with the day before the morning material in the morning was much them only surveyed that there isn't any it was just on the horse. don't get on another that when i'm just needed someone to do it, but i live in my just at them that's clearly kind of so there's natural,

national. so the time i see much in a my will come and get a slight bit lower price, which is i'm sure i get into the system, but also those should deal on that because i will put it out in the afternoon. yes . special. a emotional thing is you need to know partial team that we're almost jamalia by much that's the window. it was moderation with the machine is that it wasn't very complex for mac mall, but i don't know if she'll do this on my list. we'll go ahead and get it to the she just said i was on disability when you get it, i'll get it all as a safe. but marcus, telling me about this, and i'm not sure anything complex. yeah, no, no, no, no, i'm just in the buster though. the mostly in the bush school usually, but i will look up on an appoint also. boy,

we will look at my son and just to know, but i mean you are going it will, but the more than a motion and the physician, i will i for the and one for the region. yes. before the video, i'm going to go way region one going his way way in washington. d though i wish that i could accumulate a brown law law local boy who was procedure. well, what i'd like to sit in the machine. i wish i was a boss. now to san diego, brazil. iranian is actually one of those are the principal belonging as they should be able to shocks. i mean, you can go priscilla, it was a street. mia? no action was a shuttle. so is there like a sewer kind of stuff just wanted to sure. i see where mm. ebersole or a bill that i saw was theresa. i showed a man that owners are cut off in the middle of the se, se,

se in the same it about them. i was a lawyer, national bunger custodians, a john with oh, india is north america, dean b. we are an independent country with the largest population. so we would make decisions based on our historical and starts chic, dies with other countries and based on our own national interest or structured security interest. and in that country, or the steward of russia, who has helped india in it's strategic programs and has been

a libel partner. how can you know, india look the other way around. and we would streamline opportunistic with hulu. ringback ringback because she spent with forced to love so quito, which was mostly due to to room. and you have a couple it relates from when to do a number. could a talk with.