ah, hello in welcome to cross out. were all things considered? i'm peter lavelle. as winter draws near in temperatures, drop europe finds itself to be very vulnerable. rejection of russian energy is not only slowing europe's economy, but also bringing on a recession. what's worse? europe's economic woes are self inflicted. is europe attempting suicide? ah, cross sucking europe in crisis on joined by my guess michael hudson in new york. he's a professor of economics at the university, missouri, kansas city, as well as author of forgive them their debts in paris we have is old brick mall. he is a political commentator. and in london, we cross ed, real consulting. he's is founder of aka consulting and a foreign affairs analyst,

or a gentleman, cross stock rules and effect. that means you can jump any time you want. and i always appreciate. let's go to michael 1st in new york, i'm titling this program attempted suicide given what's going on the last 6 months in europe in the western world in general. do you send an appropriate title for what's going on? well, i'm not sure that they are realizing that it's suicide. it's more so they're following a u. s. policy, which is the u. s. wants to kill europe, but really think it over the americans are the great beneficiaries of this, especially the oil industry that is cleaning up as the oil prices go up and that's strengthening the dollar. the euro's going down, the british pound is absolutely punching it's right now. $1.15 this morning and the, apparently, the europe is run by nato amount by the elected politicians. and miss bare bach of

the foreign secretary said yesterday in poland, but she doesn't care what the european voters while she's going to support your brain. well, imagine the politicians saying they don't care what the voters say that she's in there. and she is going to do what she's agreed with the united states to do to boycott russia. let me, let me go to going to go to parent shop. i mean, how do you explain that? i mean, i agree with everything that michael just said there. i'm but i thought europe in america were comrades in arms and it comes to their proxy war against russia. but, you know, the, the, the, the 2 players to get the short end of the sake are obviously ukraine and europe. but, you know, in europe, this seems to continue to cow to washington when it's not in there, no interest whatsoever. is there any explanation for that? go ahead in paris. i want to emphasize, you know, the us, we're going to vote jim bio flies and there was a was name, i forgot the one you said that the ball brimming was that the additional. busy to

the media, and then with the newspaper. i mean the amount of nice that being said to when they thing, but he's been here for the additions. and the restriction is enormous. to support said that the war was uncovered. it was northern pablo. was a military been diagnosed or choose or job ladings, gang human law shayna was again simply a commentator. i say that repeatedly since 2014 jesse sac sydney went by the end of 2021 to the white house to tell them, you know, this is going to be to war and the white house. we're not going to discuss with the russians, nor we, that's the 1st the, then they said that the national economy is going to collapse. they would say that my cost that by then says that the mayor was the frenchman still fit for. we can only say that didn't collapse. now would they say we would have to set up a democracy in so nobody said that that would be nobody wellness. that would be

just none of the options are going to collapse. no, she goes yet or that you have to suffer to win the warning in what will end the war and show you where the americans are choosing their business in the county where he's read is bonding. she didn't, she was told to suffer from that every with project that, that we actually go to. so shut off on the not receiving train level one over. well, i think that's a good. let me go to a draw on that point there. ok. let's talk about this suffering ok, but it's not the, this is an elite driven war in the west. this is what they want. this is a proxy war against russia. ukraine is a footnote and all of this. and so we have to suffer, but not the people to make the decisions don't suffer. everybody else does. and that's what makes this conflict different for the west, because nobody really suffered for afghanistan or iraq in the west. ok. but now it's all coming home and you have to suffer, but we're not going to suffer. go ahead in london. so it will not let me go to

london here. go ahead london, will you absolutely right, pizza, but at the same time we have to bear in mind that we are a collective society. so in europe, in europe, in european union, we are complicit in this great life. i mean, we are talking about the politicians that they lied to us. but what about the economist? what about the public intellectuals, what about the journalist and economists who are perfectly aware of what is happening and they are complicit and taking part in this great lie. i mean, no one in the new in the western newspapers, meetings, mainstream newspapers, and intellectual public intellectuals, a, they have a rise and a voice against it. i mean, everyone is just supporting it because because of the, you know, indoctrination with this liberal indoctrination throughout the years here in european union,

in united kingdom and across the west. some of the very intelligent when i was use the last you a citation calling intelligent. he had idiots. people was, you know, well versed in economics, in politics in geopolitics, are still believing it is worth suffering or to, to achieve some, you know, it was already goal, which is, which is not going to be a good area. i'm glad you brought this up. give me just ask you real quickly here before i go to michael, you know, particularly with this crisis that's been generated in ukraine, i am really sick and tired of smart people saying really stupid things. ok. and it's empirically provable. ok, michael, i mean you're the economist here. europe is decided to de industrialize. is that a good idea? i mean, that lack of competitiveness. i mean, it is a want to become

a backwater and it talk about washington winning. do they want to win a part of the world that used to be rich? that is growing, that there's going to become very, very poor very, very quickly if they don't change course michael in new york. well, either have not been official critiques of supporting ukraine. other financial times and the other papers have made it very clear that are in england, the cost of heating your home is going to go up. $505000.00 pounds per year. they've said half of the pumps in england, they're going to have the clothes. they haven't talked about the industrialized. they're talking 1st of all about forcing most of the waging population into depth, or as simply unable to heat the homes. they're talking about closing down much of the consumer economy in germany. they're talking about the closing. they've closed down the german steel industry. they've because he still uses energy. they've

closed down the fertilizer we talk before. they've turn to close down the get glass industry. italy is especially hardly heard. so what the press is talking about is how europe in the industry is being dismantled and once dismantled, it cannot be started again. that's the important thing. when the steel industry company closes down, it's very hard to started up again. so we're talking about a permanent loss of markets and the americans are saying, well, we are, we're going to be the gainers. because number one, we can produce steel. we are importing all the oil from russia that we want. we control our company's own steel companies abroad. so the american control companies in his l. michael lilian and are in let me interrupt you for a 2nd. but my hang on hang on. but you know, if, if this is what they're doing to europe in europe, will not be a consumer for american good. so it's kind of

a double loss here. let me show you want to jump in in paris. go ahead. well, because now they say that all the sanctions in worker, you know, the russian economy connected me. we work in the long term. how do they know that she way should we trust that we would? i mean the problem of having the smart people in charge i dont know. you see she think hubig for example used to being somebody was writing children's book is no training academy and he says things like, oh oh companies are going to be banker. they were just not self or way. okay. so is your big, she does it what happens? okay. they're not going to come in and they say they're going to give money with others. and when it comes, when they're going to print more money and printing money or, or his tax is $1.00 of these things are going to solve the fact that their lack of energy and the lack of energy comes. i mean, why did it cause the way to destroy the, the nuclear energy industry? i mean, in transit, the cleans managed to get well the most that rounds and technology dead world since

you did your energy. this is, i'm sorry, the agencies of religion are in there. well, it shall in harmony, the areas as i have a whole of the fascinating where, but then when michael, where does this come from? i mean, it sounds like an ideological obsess and, and how, i mean, damn the facts. i mean i, this is what i can't, i can't get my head around this. ok. i mean, you know, the, everyone is aware of what's going on in the real economy here. but there is no policy. should you have this list trust? i mean, oh my god, they're going from bad to worse in the u. k. i mean, this is a craving choice. that's what makes this so bizarre. michael, it is the logical but they have also calculated how the united states will gain a from france. you mentioned the magic word bankruptcy. the real losers in this will be many of the backs and euro, because the banks are going to have many of their customers defaulting. their already fallen bank that so what we're talking about is not simply did the

realization, but a bank raises the americans now have a chat to come in and i have the american banks by the european banks. so what this is, yes, it's going to knock. i, europe, down the americans can maintain control. they're not really concerned about losing the consumer markets. they're concerned about control and control of other countries. and they imagine that this. busy will somehow strengthen their diplomatic position by being able to control europe. so it's a, the etiology is not simply anti russian li, ileal. and she is wanting to control all the rest of the world. because if you cannot control it, they might do something that the americans don't like. that's the mentality that theology at work here. yeah, it doesn't have much to do with people. does it? i mean they, they, that son who the least of their concerns are, are gentlemen, i'm going to jump in here. we're going to go to a short break. and after that short break will continue a discussion on the crisis in europe state with our team.

ah ah ah, watching it was a what a national z m a

a ah welcome back to crossing. were all things considered? i'm peter level to remind you we're discussing the crisis in europe. ah. okay, let's go back to our guest in paris. i'd like to quote something that the french president mclaren said a few days ago. frances, that a quote tipping point in the country, essentially, and facing now quote, an era of abundance coming to an end. that's an extraordinary thing for a major western leader to say, basically that the show is over live with less or abundance are the, the,

the what the, what we presented to the world as a model has come to an end. i mean, how did that guy get reelected, how the end of these people get, again elected or reelected? when you say the era of abundance is over? because the global south doesn't believe that that's why they're continuing to by fossil fuels because they want their future to be prosperous. but europe is given up, which are how do you explain that? well, of course, it does. here it does provoke many negative reactions in south 10000000 people in france will, even though the poverty line. and of course again, as i said, there was no, not the world of apology for the fact that this is a result of the sanctions on the now, even that is the result of the sanctions and the window sanctions were vacant was going to be f o t, when they were that we're going to suffer the russians we're going to suffer. but you see on the edges you go aspect. i think there is also the question of german adventures. them with the friends on to understand. i mean, the germans, always

a thing had when the back of their mind, the sort of preventable world war 2, which was also revengeful, were one of you, i remember, but sure me there at men in emmys, russia, and then you see the revenge did not come home, the old conservative hi, this is sure wished house, et cetera, game from the progressive, the games in the social democrats who against den, if you're with that in the eighty's on, they were for the priest in the did the take taking go, but jeff, another so we look, thinking that job now is a peaceful counseling. we can all live together happily thereafter. and of course, what happens now is that germany wanted control over the whole of you or he and you look against osha with you. so by the way, and of course they are miscalculated or the name of the idea that the result would be well, so favorable to them because they seemed to destroy the income at me in that,

of course, not going to be the low a strength of them but they suddenly thought they were going to, oh yeah. and in a sense, get them again and again, skiing as a see from the more progressing issue with my treatment missing and some of the pieces are more so because this is agatha with these guys that he the goods on nothing thing. and then he's also decided that they don't have the high that the americans have the transit german ish, french, german, english, my know, it was another county were subjected to people that are going to stick with on the people the for 8 years. it will take 8 years the my dish and they did the full turn . i was wondering if you had to get all the americans at that canada because they were american students, american medical students, their last a pa, christie, chrissy, is, is, is, is there a calling card here michael? i want you to reflect upon what my crown said because this, this improves

a without a doubt in my mind that neil liberalism is collapsed for the interests of the vast majority of the people that it rolls over. i mean, that's an admission. that's an admission right? there and what does it talk about? considering what john had to say, what it has to say about european unity in western college arity. i don't see it at all. i mean, if the elite lose all this, they don't care, it's their turn off. the lights that it's, it's really a very, very cynical approach. go ahead, michael. when you say that the abundance is over, what that means is it's time for and austerity program. and i am a foster already program. and the real question is, what are africa and south america and south asia going to do? are they going to be a part of this? or are they going to say, we need an alternative to austerity program. so there's no need of all for the era of abundance and for us others, no technological problem. there is a military and

a financial problem. and the problem of american policy that brought this about the problem is, well, china, russia, india, and iran, and other neighboring countries. create a set of alternative institutions to the american neo liberal i m f and world bank . and they, are they going to create a new kind of an economy on different lines from the west. that really is what the question is. and so europe is giving a demonstration of how not to run a country. and i'm, i hope that other parts of the world are looking at this and say, there is an alternative margaret thatcher was wrong. or if a, russia, china, india, and other countries to create an alternative set of institutions independent from ballard diploma. so i think that's very much already happening. we have bricks and

so many other organizations that it's, it's in through time. and this is a, an important catalyst to move it along further because it, because of sanctions and secondary sanctions, nobody wants to get involved in that. you know, the, the fear that comes out of washington only serves their interests and no one else is just, you know, is there any way i, maybe this is a silly question, but is there any way back to undo this on ring this bell, this craven choice that the europeans have taken because you know, it, the weather is cooling down here in moscow is going to be called here pretty soon. and what happens in the east weather rise just goes to the west. it's only a matter of time. go ahead and paris was, as i told you before, the problem with european decision maker with helping union you, there's no legitimacy whatsoever. the go on chelsea. lawson will like that. what the role and things of them as legitimacy or historical reason that these people are not level, given my course,

some sort of support or minority to support the for some people with these people have been elected to their only reason to be there is they're expecting they're supposed to be expert again, but if they were complete the home, then they can go, begins to there's nothing that legitimize them. and so definitely to just get more the, the gum. when i think it's only going to go from contesting the street, but the possessing the street must be pretty, pretty serious because you know, they mobilize the police and the army and sung as he was in holland already with the farmers. i mean, it's going to be pretty tough because before they had made the sheet before they had which, and of course they keep on saying, are the, you know, the suggestion of fancy, which is working on this a little transition. jessica and jessica sensors are you over, i mean it's going to be very bloody oh is going to change but, but i agree. elicited the other thing with the sanctions that not only did not work

with the destroyer economic, they don't is going to question in the bush, russia to be ever closer to china and to india. they will join maneuver, who being that link and china would have joined i knew yeah. how dream that there would be a push ma between turkey and syria origin. so the re been had all these things happening now as a result of russian diplomacy. and that's the worst thing from the worst nightmare story from the point of europe in china, getting close to russia is the kissinger nightmare. and they're provoking, that's what we'll do. everything that can go home for them and i'll be there even cover. but we don't have all that we have to with anson. i. let's go back to michael in new york. well, where do we go from here? because there seems to be an admission of defeat. they don't have any tools left in their toolbox. they're essentially telling everyone we have to suffer and they have no vision for the future. i mean, what is going well, you know, after the conflict is and come to an end. what then sanctions will remain. they

have no, they have no plan. and particularly since they would rate haste, went into this, not thinking of the consequences i have. no, i have no hope that these people know what they're doing. moving forward, michael. well, it's obvious now that you cannot simply roll things back and go back to the way things were before and say, okay, russia back your boundaries. let's just paste the u. s. officials have said the ukraine war is only a catalyst for what's going to be a 20 year war. and the 20 year war is going to be how long that we think it will take for us to take over russia, china, india, and iran. and the whole world, and until we do that, we're not going to stop, we're not going backwards. we're not going to peace. we're going to continue the ukraine war to continue to lead russia. every ukrainian who dies, absorbs at least one bullet. and that's going to leave russia with one lead less, but we're going to continue to fight. and this is only the opening line,

the opening a strategic ploy in what's going to be a long, long, ongoing fight. and so it's up to the rest of the world to say, what are we going to do to respond to all this the, the west. the only has a plan that it wants to control how, what is our plan going to be to create an alternative, to the whole post more neo liberal order? that is and left us in debt to the i m. f in debt, the bondholders with money, we can pray. now that the oil prices and food prices are going up. what are we going to do to create a new world? because we can't go back to the old world that that is over. so we're in really a new development where countries are going to be making their own. michael, that there's one little wrinkle and all of this and i'll get a shout here. what happens when people say no to what michael said? because the global south is saying no, and the level of administration is only increasing in europe. no is going to be the

most obvious answer, but then that's when you have an authoritarian reaction. control of the military of the police, a big tech, social media. we've seen it all before. i'll get the last part to you jonathan. paris. go ahead with a 20 year loan wall because that's exactly what's happening and this is that we could observe last year. so i didn't read them well if they want to take a check engine, other counties as to what they have done against them. you know, i think the news of the listing agent just getting george bush a world with judge russians. and that's happened to a german of austin only june 22nd of june 1941. so it's a p. c. well, it, which it's very interesting here is that there seems to be no, no historical memory of things of what goes where michael, you know,

last 30 seconds to you, they don't have any knowledge of history. that's why they're groping into the future. 25 seconds to you. well, that's exactly the point though, all of this has happened before, and the only solution is going to be to make a clean slate and start over again. and you can start all over again. if you let united states have veto power over anything you do as it has in the world bank and the i m f, you have to start a new organization without us beat up our and the other is an alternative. but saying no, isn't enough. so not beyond saying no, you have to say we, there is another way of doing things and you have to develop a whole set of shadow institution and alternative institutions. that's going to be the next stage that will evolve over the next. i think it's happening as we speak here. a fascinating discussion, i'm sorry, we lost our guest in london. many thanks them i guess in person in new york. and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at r t c. next time, remember,

talk with with lifted up but he see that the worst were jesus you did. yes it was. he's just going to, we know or new them me in the musical roster. and guess where does the door? nashville, know puerto a p don't cheat is must. so must on massive ovals. yes, i was only hot going that much enough place. concern must up on a thumb candle vehicle. i just wanted to follow up to the shell spot for the wood

loose should be what you group decides. im lash sale is that only the city so really driven enough bus all is well there was a lift gate and when you told you you put it on the really well to chill. dustin will and your dog also could get in there. okay. mr. dsl by mr. wheeler, the nicest. yeah. well, you still called was raised out. i'm not familiar though, and i must last. i was gonna be the best. not as must all, i need a asthma under the when you've got those problems, will it a but i just get a hold of you either some of ship issues just walking to the moon mission. i'm will not on the meet. all. shall the giddy media on more than for the on the, not all of the all to get an idea, progressively community. another. been with the thumbs, obviously, just to keep on muslims of monkey mean they're supposed to eat. prostate that you always ask is more than they live at. now when you look on the blood up like a group like like, ah, i don't know of to put any money machine i oh,

boundary of out order placed muster. but i still calmly. oh, but i was in your lease. that was a stock. i thought a mission. i attended you guys. i moved austin because i moved to the new boy you nicely they'll still it was of his i saw that when he will because also what is lucy? blair chicken hooks to locals? i had stepped a chimney, which hadn't you placed a little better, which i think you must. you do have to work as well the with the with the dish yet we got it. dish the dish. dish out the what do all of your little jared? you'll look additionally why not glad you're not sure the world is because he was more upset when you look at a lot misquoted as a quite a closure dish initiative. you should just have the what all of the way. so, but if you will, in yet a feature to one that i me good off now to music, what you will get an it guy will show this just go walk all multiplan yet ways to go on with my, you know, naturally scott,

uh what other all calls will let us alone, must really been to sit on the innovation, you know, show them so barely me, lucy, to let it be log on a sheet. it is leak when what a slip of the month about on which you to the mock about with the when you look i will order this is just look like. must bullying them and you came in the put him in the she doesn't, but i wish law a daughter of angela wished him wasn't promotional, but almost a double sold out. when you mores with them, they will close up on this on the what was in, over the deal in watson company with the much more money was painted by with

with out in the headlines this saturday, a shelling of done yet, city takes 2 people to live and that's a local hospital on fire. and meanwhile, from the front line beyond, this is new mud land also that ukrainian positions are correspondence. take a closer look at ukraine's counter offensive attempts and the higher san region as kids truth suffer heavy losses while making no strategic game of washington. and another more like.