be sure to check out our t v dot com for all the latest breaking news and updates. we'll see you right back here at the top of the next hour. ah to what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have. it's crazy, even foundation, let it be an arms race is often very dramatic development only personally and getting to disease. i don't see how that strategy will be successfully, very difficult time. time to sit down and talk with

welcomes will get part. one of the most celebrated generals in human history sounds to employ his followers to know be on the me and try to some dude without fighting the seminal worth of the art. we're still part of the curricular in mainly military academy, around the world and the number and the scale of conflicts is on the increased. isn't even possible to retire, who are as a means of politics. well, to discuss that and now joined by vicky sharman major general of the indian armed forces and director of the united service institution of india. major general is great. great pleasure. i'm great honor for me to join you. thank you very much for time. thank you for inviting me. now in your analysis of the conflict in your career, you often make the point that the west wasn't able to clearly see what was the

russia's threat. perceptions are you sure it was due to the lack of understanding or on the contrary, a clear realization of what wasn't stake there for russia and ukraine, and a very deliberate, very conscious decision to ignore russia security concerns. yes, of course. there is no denying the fact that of asha has been defining its red lines really clearly. it also articulated its national security concerns. and the most important of those was that this former soviet union state should not be incorporated in that door because that goes already 300 miles away from saint rita's book. so for whatever reason, the vest actually stepped over those claims. similarly, there was also no follow up on the mince girl, no, a cord, 20142015. and subsequently, what happened?

the rest was helping ukraine to build up its miller d capability. and there was a kind of a perception in russia that they could be a preemptive strike. one, been boston and crimea, and therefore, i think it was a hopson choice for russia to take this pre em to war, to cause the military entry into your claim. i would love to discuss the logic of that decision and the rational of that decision with before we go there. let me ask you specifically about the expansion of nato, because i read somewhere that can the lease arise back in 2008. and the book credit summit, where i ukraine's intention to join the airlines was formally welcomed for the 1st time that come to lisa rice. i stated explicitly there that the cold war was over and russia needed to accept that. that last, do you think the san drive to expand nato wasn't primarily motivated by strategic

and security considerations in the west, or wasn't simply about psychology to sort of force rush into submission and recognition of, of it's losing status. wasn't about security psychology to put it simply. i think curb it was who breeze on american parked. they became overconfident off to the brick of the soviet union. and probably because of historic and animosities they created, wanted to create more dial amongst part russia and doctors way boston the break up of for soviet union. george canon was very, i think every day. and he was prescient. when he said with the new core, what has been, then under the milestone was 22018 when bush wanted villa ukraine to join. and mr. put in really, really hard to articulated his objection. and what happened that will assure entered all of cars, cars. yeah. and so to see sure. then there's not 2014,

a madden operating took place. and then after the show was left with no other choice than to go to crimea and then bust region. and since then, things have only been brewing up and that has been coupled with economic sanctions, which is actually being very, very rude and really, really discriminatory to worse russia. so it's coupled up these factors and of that deliberate attempt by america and western countries to expand matter, which is actually a poor structure to take recourse to the section. you mention, russia signaling a disagreement with western strategy and even taking some forceful action. for example, in 2008, but i think that without any doubt, the february decision was the most dramatic of all, not only for the will, but also for the russians. most of us are shocked that russia is now using military

force against our neighbor. and we still consider ukrainians to be our brothers. i mean, in literal terms because most of us have families there. if you were advising the russian general staff and i am asking you not as a political analyst, but as a, as a military man, as a man who has to consider in a strategic room, if occasions do you think russia had any other option at its disposal, to on the one hand, address the danger of encroachment of nato. but on the other hand, without using military force because clearly there are major consequences associated with that, both ethically and humanitarian. li, if i was dead and somebody was really listening to me, then i would have perhaps otherwise some more restraint. there was a very strong t prong ability posting, which russia had already adopted. so we should have rated for some more time

because with one lack 90000 troops, 190000 troops, it was very difficult for ukrainian or any other force to enter crime. y'all done boss. second issue as a military analysts say fees that are shut, initial strategy, maximum is strategy to go to key and sort of go to clark you in these areas. this was probably not well thought through and out his way. you know, the object use was that you will be able to bring about a political canopy to leash and and disarm euclidean armed forces by about 12th of march. but that did not come through and then there was the d period to the a east east issue can in again. so that was there were to pull some of those casualties award to build the logistics of board the compliment entity in the touch line. the coordination command, control, communication issues that did not work out of band all the way it should happen in

the classic miller to campaign. but you mentioned the classic merger campaign. and over the last couple of years, all we've been hearing from the western from the east is that in the age of old wars, kinetic wars is over. you know, all the worse will now be hybrid information wars, perhaps some use of special forces, some use of espionage, perhaps for slack operations, but the real army against army clash is, know, is already a part of history. don't you think that this latest development demonstrated that perhaps we have retired war prematurely because it seems to be a reality not only in europe, but also in increasing reality. now in the pacific one in the united states in china seemed to be at the loggerheads. see, i think we had what played this sir. ita live in soft classic campaigns. india has

fought hybrid was in bunger dish. you also were preparing put a hybrid water and what happened in you can in was a typical hybrid water right from 2040. so it has only validated that i live in an important so hybrid bought it. even today, the vest is playing a proxy walk in ukraine. so this was, is actually the spectrum up. conflict is much wider. it starts from the lower in, in the non contact, non kinetic domain, then it goes up, the escalation led it across the spectrum, up conflict to a full fledged water, which via seeing rid the disk of nuclear escalation, supposed natural would have intervenes. then russia had, you know, booked it up of a nuclear forces on operational readiness. so we can not to sort of doertry date, very short kind of observations and make a pretty definite conclusion sort of as heart wrenching as this war is. and it is indeed heart's ranching for most russians,

i think it has demonstrated to the world that russia has a credible deterrence that it would use knowledge her force if it's vital interest ah, threatened. what about the quality of western to turns and the credibility of western and it turns, do you think the world believes that the americans would resort to the use of military force as they, as they claim, see, differences of mind games. so what we have seen earlier, what happened in georgia, americans didn't not intervene. similarly, video do simply the, the video from of gun east on and even presence in iraq has turned on. and there, the leadership is on record to say that we will not physically intervene in ukraine because we run the risk of, you know, escalating into the new. you're also on record to say that we will physically intervene if there is an issue in taiwan. so look, sit, i won't,

situation is very different. and again, you know, if you recall, and mr. barton made that statement, then the white house had resigned from that statement that what he meant was this, what not this, you know, so this still falling, that strategic ambiguity in taiwan contingency. but here they have taken a more strident position. what they will do everything except actually entering physically into ukraine and for that, escalating the situation to an extent that russia would be forced to up the ante. now speaking about deterrence, i think it was president theodore roosevelt or us defined it as speaking softly and carry long dig. yeah. but one century after his death it seems that the americans are actually made the reverse that they're, they're not speaking softly. they're speaking of noxious me very rudely. but do you think that stick at this point of time is long enough to force that enemies or

adversaries to do what they want to do? that bidding i may not entirely agree with your analysis because you see that is a great retrenchment which is taking place in united states. they have redrawn from most of the countries and of garnished on is a case in point that was the only door there in eurasia. so they're gone back and all what they're doing, you know, they're trying to sort of for offload most of the ability to sponsibility to the natural partners and put them in the front line. and that way you will see when president trump was dead, he wanted the natural countries to have more shed in the, in the budget of natural and us. so those are the things. so i don't think her americans are in the same position to militarily intervene in various contingencies as it was in deposit general. isn't that perhaps even more dangerous?

because if they were to take on defy it directly with the russians, we could have negotiated directly and perhaps come to some sort of a solution. but when they are using the obama term sliding from the bag that is pushing the ukrainians on the front lines and pushing other peoples on to the front lines in that sort of approx in battle. it also limits our ways of coming to some sort of a mutually agreeable solution. doesn't that also jeopardize the prospects of peace? me absolutely critic and this is what looked greer's own. and margie domain warfare is all about that it has blurred the lines between the classic maturity cam bins and piece. and this is an in action action security insecurity, delama richest book, which will persist and their port, at least in the foreseeable future. i do not see a way out in ukraine conflict because both sides have taken harden position and

with the finland and says, straighten if they're going natural they were would have further off the anti. so i don't see that, i think the, i thought a long pause this conflict is going to continue, and russia will have to be prepared for that. okay, well maybe then i will have to take a very short break right now we will be back in just a few moments. they chant a tree . never be a victory for russia. solutions you will you still wait unless you a new modem, but you locate me. crane war is a proxy war. this is a war between russia and the united states. mezzo mom made. it comes to the us. you get done in carbon dioxide. america forces are and you're not in your gage, in conflict with russian forces. the american forces are here and defend nato allies

. what happens if nato escalates even more than the special military operation become a war with says the rules that national and that'll that doesn't is my store. i see it that i see you at the us. thank you. costliest. go to me with. so i used to be sure you could you stuff with them. let's see when you miss a home and you're still foolish there in your sewage. notice you got the girl who's a welcome back to well department, because sharma, major general of the indian armed forces and director of the united service institution of indent. major general a few months ago, india and prime minister and their ends on what he said that today they will this

facing and uncertain situation as nobody's getting what they want them. he made us fail specifically after talking with his american calling, joe biden on the phone a conversation during which joe biden was trying to push into, into joining the rest of the sanctions against russia. and that push wasn't very successful. why didn't india side with americans more promptly? i mean, i would say, why should india signed with the liberty? well, because americans assumed really india is north america's team b. we are an independent country with the largest population. so we would make decisions based on our historical and strategic days with other countries and based on our own national interest or structured security interest. and in that country of the

steward of russia, who has helped india and so strategic programs and has been a elaborate partner. how can you know, india look the other way around and be extremely opportunistic. so we have taken up positions purely based on our principles. and our director, or echo norma's of warren polars. now i'm interviewing a lot of non western speakers. there's this and a lot of them are concerned about being caught in this economic and political crossfire between russia and the west and being penalized for even taking a neutral position. now, india is a large country. it's a very influential country. america wants it to be on its side. that's why they're sitting accommodations towards your country. but my question to you is, do you think there is any player in this world today? perhaps india, who could take it upon itself to mediate between russian that was given that you have very good ties with both sides and you,

you and the rest of it. there will have a clear interest in making sure that the world is operational than this conflict. doesn't turn into yet another global war crypt precisely. that was the reason for india abstaining at number of these, warding at the u. n. because we wanted to maintain a neutral position and be of the liberals, that interlocutor between russia and your 9 able as an interlocking or you're interested in being that additionally we would do, but it will not happen over treat firstly they have a lot of, you know, back door to door, you know, behind the curtain kind of diplomacy which will take place, which we are ready to be sort of if for turkey can do retirement to india is definitely in much but much better position to do it. so we will be very happy as long as we are able to facilitate peace and dis country. we will be really happy to

play that now as a horrible, again, as this conflict this, there are also certain upsides, let's say, for our various countries. and i know that over the last couple of months, russia has come up from number 10 to number 4th as india's oil supplier, and many of the, our oil supplies that used to go to europe. and now going to india. i wonder if your country has any qualms about increasing its reliance on russia's energy sources as your european colleagues. so painfully trying to extricate themselves from that. no, if we had an equal arms, then despite the western pressures, we wouldn't have been purchasing oil and gas from russia. why you're not care for this malevolent russian energy. who because you see a reorder in a g, a deficient country. really? well, i thought our economy for the well being of people really quiet chief energy and

therefore russia is a reliable partner. so we have been able to utilize this window of opportunity despite the pressure from the wrist. and we will continue to do. now as you mentioned before, india is pursuing, it's on foreign policy and negotiating with the americans in doing that and deals with the american. so is russia increasing its corporation with china? and i know that traditionally, india has looked at that with a certain degree of once you have a major voice dispute of, in the chinese, you also have security apprehensions about the growth of china. have you seen any change in the russian chinese dynamic over the last half a year, and do you think anything substantial has changed their see one has to take of any realistic view of geo politics. you shared common borders with russia? they are your immediate neighbors. we're still at a certain distance and chinese over the deep pockets,

and i'm in force 2014. they were able to invest in your energy sector than many other places. so it is russia's right to create that complementarity and interdependence. so russia, india does not dictate to other countries how, what kind of relations it should have with its own neighborhoods. so we have no such qualms. there are deletions with the russia on its own, mad it, and it would continue to be. and we are all sure with that show would not undermine india strategic interest just because they become economically close to china. and that's actually a very interesting question. how sensitive for, according to your sources is in russia to india, security concerns. does russia make accommodations for in this position? let's say more than it would be paying attention to other countries. of course it has the kind of weapon system that you have provided to us is very,

very exclusive. you're not provided that kind of weapon system to any other country . of course, very recently you upgraded your minority relations with china. and it wasn't when we had to problem the chinese on the line of actual control, russian met all its contextual obligation and was to the extent of, you know, giving us more and more weapons that we needed. not these are hard times when your desk, the depth of her relationship and russia has come, isn't to the occasion and met indian expectations and would continue to push on sticking about the depth of the relationship as well as military cooperation. as we are recording this interview, the russians and the chinese are conducting, di, traditional naval and navy drills. and one of the things that i heard from russian military analyst is that while china has a very impressive navy and both in terms of human capacity in terms of their sense,

they lock in the experience and expertise of the actual warfare. and that this is something that the russians may be sharing with that chinese neighbors. that's where the case would that be a concern for in then? you see, if you train a chinese navy feeling navy, it does not offer any concern. you have a relationship with this. indian navy is very strong and our sphere of influence is into the indian ocean region. and by virtue of our strategic geography, we have a very good domination debt. a we are interested in getting aud open to solve china sea, but it's purely from the point of view that 60 percent of the policy is through that . and we want freedom of navigation, but you will see that we are not joined freedom of navigation, exercise americans at anybody. so i think our navy is really very, very professional and it's very, very jammed and it can secured in just national interest in the indian ocean region

. and we will be started with you mentioned geography. and i think one of the interesting features of the increasing cooperation between russia and china angles . so i am a sign of trust anyways that both russia and china can afford to expand last on guarding their own border, which is no small thing because it's for more than 4000 kilometers long. and essentially russia can now divert it's attention to the west. china can deal with its problems in the pacific and the 2 are essentially standing back to back. i don't know how long it will historically last, and that's why i wanted to ask you, do you think the current level of trust, when you can turn your back to, you know, a country with which we also had border disputes in the past. do you think it's primarily necessitated by the difficulties with the west or it can sustain itself? historically? this is a big question. and this all depends on how you manage your,

by later relations with china. in the past you had problems incent, alicia, right? in future also, no country would like to see another county with the large military next door. and particularly if that country turns to be reviewed is send it want to or to the geography. these concerns mostly that's a real prospect though, on the part of chinese because they claim that they have no intention. chinese have done in self china c at the what you call is the 1949 claim lane or what they have done elsewhere. even on the indian borders. well, it does give you a certain indication that will, the cartographic consciousness is very high. the thing is the same. they let the shift in the land map and the shifts in the maritime maps. no, no, since you have it is all your border issues with china,

but in french doesn't come purely in winter. it comes, it is in the economic sphere of influence. you see, look at cent alicia, where you had such a good blog and such good influence to the chinese economic engagement is more than $50000000000.00. i think yours would be to the tune of $20.00 to $30000000000.00 shaw. the economic influence scanned desert into the political influence and the countries of your neighbors. your neighboring countries will make political choices, which are more income wrenched with chinese. tragic interest was the 2nd interest you look at. burton wrote an issue of a, it's a chinese who are calling the shorts and well it is integrating economies. so this does are the new forms of influences than not the military influence which a board pertinent ridge isn't really and so competitive. and it seems to be suggesting because i assume that the, the current level of cooperation between russia and china would also allow china

russia for that matter to take that sensitive issues into account. i'm of the view that if the vest heard not enforced islamic sanctions against russia and 2014 probably the trajectory of russia, china relations board, very different. can. i also ask you about the trajectory of the chinese intern relationship because it's hard to imagine the other 2 pair of countries which would benefit more from, you know, they synergies from combining our forces. but if you have a border dispute, as we mentioned, then there's a general climate of suspicion. there what keeps this dynamic of mistrust so entrenched and is it possible to overcome at than time india trade its level best to have very harmonious relations with china. strong, 19938 in 2013 wis signed

a series of agreement for peace building peace and tranquility on the border. and on the use of force ran, india was going through a complicated corporate situation. as i show a saudi, the chinese, they violated all those elements and they use military force to change the strapped to school at the line of actual control. now what do, what does india make or conflict? then that means that, well, they do not want peace and they want probably be on their own domes that they want to china and take issue in which they feel. india is a big bomb, partuto and it is a good time to put india in its place. but given the size of india and the confidence that we hold, we will not permit any country under the sun to stretch equally courses. and actors way, you know, we've taken dick boist goo miller to the sponsors,

which i know has understood. and hopefully with these lessons it will have to have a shortening effect on chinese or to negotiate with us from a position of bad it. what i'm hearing from you is that the chinese needs here revision some of their wisdoms of son, so who actually are good for mutual accommodation rather than 0, some outcomes. anyway, major general, we have to live in there. thank you very much for your time. thank you. so much, thank you and thank you for watching you hope to syria again was the part ah with me ah,

ah, ah, [000:00:00;00] ah, russia orders or regrouping added forces from the northern front lines in ukraine to reinforce its troops. i made intense shelling and the dot net reach it also and the stories that shape the week. ah, yes more. so shell a southern key bridge and you praying using the americans of fire? hi mars rocket. so this is just basically we're sitting