me, i'll try to send you without fighting to some a little more. there are, but we're still part of the curricular in many military academies around the world, the via the number and the scale constantly increased. is this even possible to retire your politics also discuss them now joined by sharma. major general of the indian armed forces and director of the united service institution of india. major general is a great, great pleasure and great honor for me to join you. thank you very much for time. thank you for inviting me. now in your analysis of the conflict in ukraine, you often make the point that the west wasn't able to clearly see what was russia's threat. perceptions. are you sure it was due to the lack of understanding or on the country, a clear realization of what was at stake there for russia and ukraine, and a very deliberate, very conscious decision to ignore russia security concerns? yes, of course. there is no denying the fact that as asha has been defining its red lines

very clearly. it also articulated just national security concerned. and the most important of those was that this former soviet union state should not be incorporated in nato because natalie is walter d 300 miles away from saint peter's book. so of whatever reason, the vest actually step to will those claims. similarly, there was also no follow up on the means. no accord, 20142015. and subsequently, what happened? the rest was helping ukraine to build up its miller d capability. and there was a kind of a perception in russia that they could be a preemptive strike, one than boston and crimea. and therefore, i think it was a hopson choice for russia to take this pre em to what you cause the military entry

into ukraine. i would love to discuss the logic of that decision and the rational that decision with human before we go there. let me ask you specifically about the expansion of nato because i read somewhere and that kind of leads arrives back in 2008. and the book credit summit, where you cranes intention to join the airlines was formally welcomed for the 1st time that come to lisa rice stated explicitly there that the cold war was over and russia needed to accept that. that last, do you think this drive to expand nato wasn't primarily motivated by strategic and security considerations in the west or wasn't simply about psychology to sort of force rush into submission and recognition of, of it's losing status. wasn't about security or psychology to put it simply. i think curb it was who breeze on american parked. they became overconfident off to the brick of the soviet union. and probably because of historic and animosities

they created, wanted to create more dial the most part, russia, and that is way boston the break up of for soviet union. george canon was very, i think every day. and he was prescient. when he said with the new core, what has been, then under the milestone was 22008 when bush wanted villa ukraine to join. and mr. put in really, really hard to articulate his objection and what happened back? well, we are sure entered all of cars cars. yeah. and so to see sure. then there's not 2014, a maiden operating took place and dead after the show was left with no other choice than to go to crimea and been bust region. and since then, things have only been brewing up. and that has been coupled with economic sanctions, which has actually been very, very rude and very, very discriminatory towards russia. so it's coupled up these factors and of that

deliberate attempt by america and western countries to expand natural, which is actually a poor structure to dick recourse to the section. now, you mentioned russia, signaling and disagreement with western strategy and even taking some forceful action. for example, in 2008, but i think that without any doubt, the february decision was the most dramatic of all, not only for the will, but also for the russians. most of us are shocked that russia is now using military force against our neighbor. and we still consider ukrainians to be our brothers. i mean, in literal terms because most of us have families. there are, if you were advising the russian general staff and i'm asking you are not as a political analyst, but as a, as a military man, as a man who has to consider in

a strategic room, if occasions do you think russia have any other option at its disposal to on the one hand, address the danger of encroachment of nato, but on the other hand, without using military force because clearly there are major consequences associated with that, both ethically and humanitarian. li, if i was dead and somebody was really listening to me, then i would have perhaps otherwise some modest chain. there was a very strong 3 prong ability posting, which russia had already adopted. so we should have rated for some more time because with one lack 90000 groups, 190000 groups, it was very difficult for ukrainian or any other force to enter crime. y'all done boss. second issue as a military analysts say fees that are shut, initial strategy, maximum is strategy to go to key and sort of go to clark you in these areas.

this was probably not well thought through. and that is way you know, the object use was that you will be able to bring about a political effort to leash and and disarm euclidean armed forces by about 12th of march. but that did not come through. and then there was a deeper to the, a east east issue can in again. so that was there were to pull some of those casualties or award to build the logistics of board the compliment entity in the thought line. the coordination command control communication issues. they did not work out of band all the way it should happen in the classic maturity campaign. but you mentioned the classic merger campaign. and over the last couple of years, all we've been hearing from the western from the east is that in the age of old wars, kinetic wars is over. you know all the wars will now be hybrid information wars, perhaps some use of special forces, some use of espionage,

perhaps for slack operations, but the real army against army clash is know, is already a part of history. don't you think that this latest development demonstrated that perhaps we have retired war prematurely because it seems to be a reality not only in europe, but also in increasing reality. now in the pacific when the united states and china seemed to be and the longer had see, i think we had always played this sir. ita live in soft plastic and pins. india has fort hybrid was in bundle dish. you also were preparing for a hybrid was and what happened in you can in was a typical hybrid water right from 2040. so it has only validated that i live in an important so hybrid bought it. even today, the vestos being a proxy was in ukraine. so this was, is actually the spectrum up. conflict is much wider. it starts from the lower in,

in the non contact, non kinetic domain, then it goes up, the escalation led it across the spectrum of conflict to a full fledged water, which via seeing read the risk of nuclear escalation, suppose nectar would have intervenes. then russia had, you know, brought it up with a nuclear forces on operational readiness. so we can not to sort of doertry date, very short kind of observations and make a pretty definite conclusion sort of as heart wrenching as this war is. and it is indeed hearts ranching for most russians. i think it has demonstrated to the world that russia has a credible deterrence that it will use knowledge her force if it's little interest ah, threatened. what about the quality of western to turns? and the credibility of western turns, do you think the world believes that the americans would resort to the use of military force as they, as they claim, see detritus is

a mind game. so, what we have seen earlier, what happened in georgia, americans did not intervene. similarly, video do simply the, the video from of garnished on and even presence in iraq has turned on and they have the leadership is on record to say that we will not physically intervene in ukraine because we run the risk of, you know, escalating into the new you're also on record to say that we will physically intervene if there is an issue in taiwan. so look, sit, i won't, situation is very different. and again, you know, if you recall, and mister barton made that statement, then the very top's head risangua from that statement that what he meant was this, what not this, you know, so this still falling, that strategic ambiguity in taiwan contingency. but here they have taken a more strident position, what they will do everything except actually entering physically into ukraine. and

for that, escalating the situation to an extent that russia would be forced to up the ante. now speaking about deterrence, i think it was a president theodore roosevelt or us defined it as speaking softly and carry long jake. yeah, but that one century after his death it seems that the americans actually made the reverse that they're, they're not speaking softly. they're speaking of noxious li, very rudely. but do you think that stick at this point of time is long enough to force that enemies or adversaries to do what they want to do? that bidding, i may not entirely agree with your analysis because you see that is a great retrenchment which is taking place in united states. they have withdrawn from most of the countries and i've gone east on is a case and quite that was the only to award there in your isha. so they're gone

back and all what they're doing, you know, they're trying to sort of full offload. most of the military responsibility to the unnatural partners and put them in the front line and out his way. you will see when president trump was dead, he wanted the natural current is to have more share in the, in the budget of natural and us. so those are the things, so i don't think her americans are in the same position to militarily intervene in various contingencies as it was in the basel general. isn't that perhaps even more dangerous? because if they were to take on defy it directly with the russians, we could have negotiated directly and perhaps come to some sort of a solution. but when they are using the obama term fighting from the back, that is pushing the ukrainians on the front lines and pushing other peoples on to the front lines in that sort of approx in battle. it also limits our ways of coming

to some sort of a mutually agreeable solution. doesn't that also jeopardize the prospects of peace? me absolutely critic and this is what looked greer's own. and margie domain warfare is all about that it has blurred the lines between the classic minority campaigns and peace. and this isn't in action, action security insecurity, delama richest, put, retreat persist, and their port, at least in the foreseeable future. i do not see a way out in ukraine conflict because both sides have taken harden position and with the finland and says, straighten if they go unnatural they would, would help further up the anti. so i don't see that, i think the us lot a long haul and this conflict is going to continue, and russia will have to be prepared for that. okay, well, maybe then i will have to take a very short break right now. we'll be back in just a few moments they chant. ah

ah, nice to come to the russians state will never be tied as on the nose landscape div asking him, i'm not getting calls all set up for a week within the 55 when. okay, so mine is 2000 speedy. when else with we will ban in the european union, the kremlin media machine, the state aunt, rush up to date and split our t spoke neck. even our video agency, roughly all band on youtube with

ah ah ah, for a welcome back to work with big a sharma, major general of the indian armed forces and director of the united service institution in major general a few months ago into a prime minister and aaron's,

i'm already said that today the world is facing an uncertain situation as nobody is getting what they want them. he made a statement specifically after talking with his american colleague, joe biden, on the phone. a conversation during which joe biden was trying to push into into joining the rest of the sanctions against the russia, and that's push wasn't very successful. why didn't india side with americans more promptly? i mean, i would say, why should india signed with the liberty? well, because americans assumed really india is north america, team b, we are an independent country with the largest population. so we would make decisions based on our historical and strategic days with other countries and based on our own national interest, artist, structure, security, interest. and in that,

or country of the steward of russia who has helped india and so strategic programs and has been a elaborate partner. how can you know, india look the other way around and be extremely opportunistic. so we have taken up positions purely based on our principles and our director, or economists of warren polars. now i'm interviewing a lot of non western speakers. there's, there's a lot of them are concerned about being caught in this economic and political crossfire between russia and the west and being penalized for even taking a neutral position. now, india is a large country. it's a very influential country. america wants it to be on its side. that's why they're sitting accommodations towards your country. but my question to you is, do you think there is any player in this world today? perhaps india, who could take it upon and south to mediate between russian that was given that you

have very good ties with both sides and you, you and the rest of the world. how have a clear interest in making sure that the world is operational than this conflict doesn't turn into yet another global war crypt precisely. that was the reason for india abstaining at number of these, warding at the un because we wanted to maintain a neutral position. and be of a liberals, that interlocutor between russia and your 9 able as an interlocking or you're interested in being that additional we would do, but it will not happen over treat. firstly, they have a lot of, you know, back door or, you know, behind the curtain kind of diplomacy which will take place, which we are ready to be sort of if for turkey can do retirement to india is definitely in much, much better position to do it so we will be very happy as long as we are able to

facilitate peace and disconnect, we'd be really happy to play that. now as a horrible, again, as this conflict this, there are also certain upsides, let's say, for our various countries. and i know that over the last couple of months, russia has come up from a number 10 to number 4th as india's oil supplier. and many of the oil supplies that used to go to europe. and i was going to india. i wonder if your country has any qualms about increasing its reliance on russia's energy sources as your european colleagues. i so painfully trying to extricate themselves from that. no, if we had any qualms, then despite the western pressures, we wouldn't have been purchasing oil and gas from russia. why you're not care for this malevolent russian energy. who because you see a reorder energy deficient country really well i thought our economy for the well

being of people really quiet chief energy. and therefore russia is a reliable partner. so we have been able to utilize this window of opportunity despite the pressure from the best, and we will continue to do. now, as you mentioned before, india is pursuing, it's on foreign policy and negotiating with the americans in doing that and deals with the american. so is russia increasing its corporation with china? and i know that traditionally, india has looked at that with a certain degree of video. once you have a major voice dispute in the chinese, you also have security apprehensions about the growth of china. have you seen any change in the russian chinese dynamic over the last half a year and do you think anything substantial has changed? their c one has to take of any realistic view of geopolitics, you shared common borders with russia. they are your immediate neighbors. we're

still at a certain distance and chinese over the deep pockets, and i'm in post 2014. they were able to invest in your energy sector than many other places. so it is russia's right to create that complementarity and interdependence. so russia, india does not dictate to other countries how, what kind of relations it should have with its own neighborhoods. so we have no such qualms. there are relations with the russia on its own mad it, and it would continue to beat. and we are also aware that the show would not undermine india strategic interest just because they become economically close to china. and that's actually very interesting question. how sensitive for, according to your sources, is russia to india, security concerns? does russia make accommodations for in disposition? let's say more than it would be paying attention to other countries. of course it

has the kind of weapon system that you have provided to us is very, very exclusive. you are not provided that kind of weapon system to any other country. of course, very recently you upgraded your minority relations with china and it wasn't when we had to problem the chinese on the line of actual control, russian met all it's contractual obligation and was to the extent of, you know, giving us more and more weapons that we needed not, these are hard times when your desk, the depth of our relationship and russia has gone or didn't to the occasion and met in expectations and would continue gucia sticking about the depth of the relationship as well as military corporation. as we are recording this interview, the russians and the chinese are conducting di, traditional neva, and they've been drills. and one of the things that i heard from russian military analyst is that while china has a very impressive navy,

both in terms of human capacity, in terms of their sense, they lock in the experience and expertise of the actual warfare. and that this is something that the russians may be sharing with that chinese neighbors. that's where the case would that be a concern for in then? you see, if you train a chinese navy feel in a way it does not offer any concern. you have a relationship with this engine, navy is very strong and our sphere of influence is into the indian ocean region. and by virtue of our strategic geography, we have a very good domination debt a we are interested in getting all over to solve china sea, but it's purely from the point of view that 60 percent for the boss is through that . and we want freedom of navigation, but you would see that we are not joined freedom of navigation, exercise americans at anybody. so i think our navy is very, very,

very professional and it's very, very jan and it can secured in just national interest in the indian ocean region. and we will be start to start with you mentioned geography. and i think one of the interesting features of the increasing cooperation between russia and china and also, you know, i think a, a sign of trust in a ways, dad, both russia and china can afford to expand last on guarding their own border, which is no small thing because it's for more than 4000 kilometers long, and essentially russia can now divert it's attention to the west. china can deal with its problems in the pacific and the 2 are essentially standing back to back. i don't know how long it will historically last, and that's why i wanted to ask you, do you think this current level of trust when you can turn your back to, you know, a country with which we also had the border disputes in the past. do you think it's primarily necessitated by the difficulties with the west or it can sustain itself

historically? this is a big question. and this all depends on how you manage your by later traditions of china. in the past you had problems and sent alicia right in future. also, no country would like to see another guntee with the large military next door. and particularly if that country turns to be reviewed in, in send it want to or to the geography. these concerns must think that's a real prospect though, on the part of chinese, because they claim that they have no intention. chinese have done in south china and see the what you call is the 1949 train lane or war they have done elsewhere. even on the indian borders, well, it does of your certain indications that well, the cartographic consciousness is very high. and do you think it's the same, they let the shift in the land map and the shifts in the maritime maps?

no, no, since you have resolved your border issues with china, that in france doesn't come truly unlimited terms. it is in the economic sphere of influence. you see, look at central issue where you have such a good globe in such a good influence. today, chinese economic engagement is more than $50000000000.00. i think yours would be to the tune of $20.00 to $30000000000.00. sure. the economic influence, scan desert, and to the political influence and the countries of your neighbors, your neighboring countries will make political choices, which are more in con, grants with chinese strategy can just be the can interest. you look at belton road in issue of a. it's a chinese, we're calling the shorts and well, it does integrating economies. so this does or the new forms of influences than not the military influence which a board pertinent it routes. what isn't really and so competitive. and it seems to be suggesting, because i assume that the,

the current level of corporation in russia in china would also allow china russia for that matter to take that sensitive issues into account. i'm of the view that if the vest had not enforced islamic sanctions against russia and 2014 probably the trajectory all 4 russia, china relations board, very different. okay. can i also ask you about the inject terry of the chinese intern relationship? because it's hard to imagine the other 2 pair of countries which would benefit more from, you know, they synergies from combining, i'd, their forces. but, but if you have a border dispute, as we mentioned, then there is a general climate of suspicion there. what keeps this dynamic of mistrust so entrenched and is it possible to overcome at than time india trade its level best to have very harmonious relationship with china. from

1993 in 2013, we signed a series of agreement, poppies, building peace and tranquility on the border. and on the use of force. when india was going through a complicated group situation of russian authority, the chinese there, while it all those agreements and did use military force to change district to school at the line of actual control. what do, what does india make or conflict? then that means that, well, they do not want peace and they want probably be on their own domes that they want to china and take issue in which they feel. india is a big bomb, partuto and it is a good time to put india in its place. but given the size of india and the confidence that we poured, we will not permit any country under the sun to stretch equally cautious and active

weight. you know, we've taken dick boist goo miller to, to sponsors with china, has understood, and hopefully, with these lessons it would have to have a sobering effect on chinese or to negotiate with us from a position of bad it. what i'm hearing from you is that the chinese needs here revision some of the wisdoms of some to who actually are good for mutual accommodation rather than 0, some outcomes. anyway, major general, we have to live in there. thank you very much for your time. thank you. so much. thank you. thank you for watching you hope the syria again was the part with me for

oh, well, never be a victory for russia. we solution with my truly not unless you look at a meal. ukraine war is a proxy war. this is a war between russia and the united states. naz on are made, it comes to not should get done in carbon dioxide. america forces are and you're not in your to gauging conflict aggression forces the american forces are here and defend nato ally for that bridge that nato escalates even more indiscretion. military operations become a war with wilson dealership and that'll that doesn't, is my thought. i see it, i see you're thinking possibly a couple of weeks. so i use 3 you should week and you stuff to

with the girl who's with russia, orders a regrouping of is false, is on the know the front lines in ukraine to reinforce the intent shelling was done ex region also in the stories of the week with sitting a price cap on russian resources is an absolutely stupid idea. if political decisions are made and they go against contracts, then we will simply not fulfill them. we will not supply anything if it's against our interest. provided the decision of g 7.