oh, i'm announcing to all my party members in the country get ready, because there will be my final call, which will change the destiny of our country. i have seen all pakistan. these are ready for that final protest call. are you good? you're in walla. by hassan has been in a state of political service for months. as the pulpit apartment is a, was removed from pilot through a boat of new confidence in parliament. he claimed that the u. s. was involved in his regime change thousands of arkansas and he's continued as supportive as evidence by the demonstration on saturday. while the rose up. this is news our be sure to join me on the album will please from around the was was last week's up stories. i'm around have all me off season with

welcome to world to part one of the most celebrated generals in human history songs to enjoy his followers to know the enemy, and try to some good without fighting to send a little warren to the art of war. still part of the curriculum in many military academy around the world and the number and the scale of conflicts is on the increase is it's even possible to retire, your opinions and politics. also discuss that analogy joined by vicki sharman major general of the indian armed forces and director of the united service institution of india. major general is a great, great pleasure and great honor for me to join you. thank you very much for your time. thank you for inviting me now. your analysis of the conflict in the ukraine.

you often make the point that the west wasn't able to clearly see what was russia's threat. perceptions by assurance was due to the lack of understanding or on the contrary, a clear realization of what wasn't staying there for russia, ukraine, and a very deliberate, very conscious decision to ignore russia. security concerns. yes, of course, there is no denying the fact that russia has been defining its red lines very clearly. it also articulated its national security concerns. and the most important of those was that this former soviet union state should not be incorporated in. and that to because the doctor is walter d 300 miles away from saint rita's book. so for whatever reason, the vest actually stepped over those claims. similarly, there was also no follow up on the mince girl. no, you know

a cord 20142015 subsequently what happened? the rest was helping ukraine to build up its miller d capability. and there was a kind of a perception in russia that there could be a pre emptive strike. one, been boss dejan and crimea, and therefore, i think it was a hopson choice for russia to take this preemptive war to cause as the military entry into ukraine. i would love to discuss the logic of that decision and the rationale of that decision with before we go there. let me ask you specifically about the expansion of nato, because i read somewhere that kind of leads arise back in 2008 and the book credit summit, where you cranes intention to join the airlines was formally welcomed for the 1st time that come to lisa rice stated explicitly there and then the cold war was over and russia needed to accept that it last. do you think this drive to expand later

was primarily motivated by strategic and security considerations in the west, or was it simply about i call you to sort of force rushing to submission in recognition of, of losing status. was it about security psychology to put it simply? i think it was who breeze on american part, they became overconfident after the break of the soviet union and probably because of historic and animosities they created, wanted to create more dial amongst photoshop. and that is way boston the break up of for soviet union. george canon was very, i think every day. and he was prescient. when he said, when the new court, what has been, then under the milestone was 22008. when bush wanted balloon. you came to join and mr. put in really, really hard articulated digital objection and what happened that? well, we are sure entered all of cars cars. yeah. and so to see sure. then there's not

2014, a maiden operating, took place and dead after the show was left with no other choice than to go to crimea and been bust region. and since then things have only been brewing up. and that has been coupled with economic sanctions, which is actually being very, very rude and really, really discriminatory towards russia. so it's coupled up these factors and of that deliberate attempt by america and western countries to expand natural, which is actually a poor structure to take recourse to the section. now, you mentioned russia signaling and that disagreement with western strategy and even taking some forceful action for example in 2008. but i think that without any doubt, the february decision was the most dramatic of all, not only for the will,

but also for the russians. most of us are shocked that russia is now using military force against our neighbor and we still consider ukrainians to be our brothers. i mean, in little turns, because most of us have families, there are, if you were advising the russian general staff and i'm asking you not as a political analyst, but as a, as a military man, as a man who has to consider in a strategic room. if occasions do you think russia have any other option at its disposal to on the one hand, address the danger of encroachment of nato. but on the other hand, without using military force, because clearly there are major consequences associated with that, both ethically and humanitarian. li, if i was dead and somebody was really listening to me, then i would have perhaps otherwise some modest chain. there was

a very strong 3 prong ability posting, which russia had already adopted. so we should have rated for some more time because with one lack 90000 groups, 190000 groups, it was very difficult for ukrainian or any other force to enter crime. y'all done boss. second issue as a military analysts say fees that are shut, initial strategy, maximum is strategy to go to key and sort of go to clark you in these areas. this was probably not well pot through. and that is way you know, the object use was that you will be able to bring about a political effort to leash and and disarm euclidean armed forces by about 12th of march. but that did not come through and then there was a deep revert to the a east east issue can in again. so that was there were to build some of those casualties awarded with the logistics of board the compliment entity in the thought

line. the coordination command, control communication issues. they did not work out of band all the way it should happen in a classic miller to campaign. but you mentioned the classic merger campaign. and over the last couple of years, all we've been hearing from the western, from the east is that, you know, the age of old wars. kinetic wars is over. you know, all the wars will now be hybrid information wars, perhaps some use of special forces. some use of espionage, perhaps for slack operations, but the real army against army clash is know, is already a part of history. don't you think that this latest development demonstrated that perhaps we have retired war prematurely because it seems to be a reality not only in europe, but also in increasing reality. now in the pacific, when the united states and china seemed to be and the longer had, see, i think we had or what played this sir. ita,

live in soft close to campaigns. india has fought hybrid was in bunger dish. you also were preparing put a hybrid wat and what happened in ukraine was a typical hybrid water right from 2040. so it has only validated the relevance and importance of hybrid water. even today, the vest is being a proxy water in your green. so this water is actually the spectrum up, conflict is much wider, it starts from the lower in, in the non contact, non kinetic domain. then it goes up. the escalation lead across the spectrum up conflict to a full fledged water, which via seeing rid the disk of nucleus escalation, supposed network would have intervenes. then russia had, you know, booked it up of a nuclear forces on operational readiness. so we can not to sort of doertry date, very short kind of observations and make a pretty definite conclusion. sort of as heart wrenching as this war is. and it is

indeed hearts ranching for most russians. i think it has demonstrated to the world that russia has a credible the turns that it would use knowledge her force if it's vital interest ah, threatened. what about the quality of western to turns and the credibility of western turns? do you think the world believes that the americans would resort to the use of military force as they, as they claim, see, differences of mind games. so what we have seen earlier, and what happened in georgia, americans did not intervene. similarly, video do simply the, the video from of gun east on and even presence in iraq has turned on. and there, the leadership is on record to say that we will not physically intervene in ukraine because we run the risk of, you know, escalating into the new. you're also on record to say that we will physically

intervene if there is an issue in taiwan. so look, sit, i won't, situation is very different. and again, you know, if you recall and mr. barden made that statement, then the white house had resigned from that statement that what he meant was this, what not this, you know, so this still falling, that strategic ambiguity in taiwan contingency. but here they have taken a more strident position. what they will do everything except actually entering physically into ukraine and her for that, escalating the situation to an extent that russia would be forced to up the ante. now speaking about deterrence, i think it was president theodore roosevelt or us defined it as speaking softly and carry long jake. yeah. but that one century after his death it seems that the americans are actually made the reverse that they're, they're not speaking softly. they're speaking of noxious me very rudely. but do you

think that stick at this point of time is long enough to force that enemies or adversaries to do what they want to do? that bidding, i may not entirely agree with your analysis because you see that is a great retrenchment which is taking place in united states. they have withdrawn from most of the countries and of garnished on is a case and quite that was the only award there in your isha. so they're gone back and all what they're doing, you know, they're trying to sort of full offload. most of the military responsibility to the an act of partners and put them in the front line. and that is why you would see when president trump was that he wanted the natural current is to have more share in the, in the budget of natural and us. so those are the things. so i don't think her americans are in the same position to militarily intervene in various

contingencies as it was in the basel general. isn't that perhaps even more dangerous? because if they were to take on defy it directly with the russians, we could have negotiated directly and perhaps come to some sort of a solution. but when they are using the obama term sliding from the back, that is pushing the ukrainians on the front lines of pushing other peoples on to the front lines in that sort of approx in battle. it also limits our ways of coming to some sort of a mutually agreeable solution. doesn't that also jeopardize the prospects of peace? me absolutely correct. and this is what looked greer's own. and margie domain warfare is all about that it has blurred the lines between the classic minority campaigns and peace. and this isn't in action, action security insecurity, delama richest, put, retreat persist, and their port, at least in the foreseeable future. i do not see

a way out in ukraine conflict because both sides have taken harden position and with the finland and says, straighten if they go unnatural they would, would have further off the anti. so i don't see that. i think that's not a long hall and this conflict is going to continue, and russia will have to be prepared for that. okay, well, mentors and i will have to take a very short break right now. we will be back in just a few moments. they chant mm mm. what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have. it's crazy even foundation, let it be an arms race is often very dramatic development only personally, i'm going to resist. i don't see how that strategy will be successful,

very critical. i'm time to sit down and talk with because sharma, major general of the indian armed forces and director of the united service institution of india. major general a few months ago. india and prime minister and their ends are more. do you said that today the world is facing and in certain situation as nobody's getting what they want them here? maybe they don't. specifically,

after talking with his american colleague, joe biden, on the phone, had a conversation during which joe biden was trying to push it into joining the western sanctions against the russia. that push wasn't very successful. why didn't india side with the americans more promptly? i mean, i would say, why should the india signed with the liberty slow because americans assumed really india is north america. team b, we are an independent country with the largest population. so we would make decisions based on our historical and strategic days with other countries. and based on our own national interest or structured security interest, and in that country of the steward of russia who has helped india and so strategic programs and has been a, is a libel partner. how can you know,

india look the other way around and be extremely opportunistic. so we have taken up positions purely based on our principles and our, our director, or economists of warren polars. now i'm interviewing a lot of non western speakers. there's this and a lot of them are concerned about being caught in this economic and political crossfire between russia and the west and being penalized for even taking a neutral position. now, india is a large country. it's a very influential country. america wants it to be on its side. that's why there are certain accommodations towards your country. but my question to you is, do you think there is any player in this world today? perhaps india, who could take it upon itself to mediate between russian that was given that you have very good ties with both sides and you, you and the rest of the world. how have a clear interest in making sure that the world is operational than this conflict?

doesn't turn into yet another global war crypt precisely. that was the reason for india abstaining at number of these, warding at the un because we wanted to maintain a neutral position and be of a liberals, that interlocutor between russia and your 9 able as an interlocking or you're interested in being that additional. we would do, but it will not happen over treat firstly they have a lot of, you know, back door or, you know, behind the curtain kind of diplomacy which will take place, which we are ready to be sort of, if for turkey can do retirement to india is definitely in much but much better position to do it. so we will be very happy as long as we are able to facilitate peace and discontinue, we be really happy to play that. now as a horrible, again, as this conflict this, there are also certain upsides, let's say,

for our various countries. and i know that over the last couple of months, russia has come up from number 10 to number 4th as india's oil supplier. and many of the oil supplies that used to go to europe and i was going to india. i wonder if your country has any qualms about increasing its reliance on russia's energy sources as your european colleagues. i so painfully trying to extricate themselves from that. no, if we had any qualms, then despite the western pressures, we wouldn't have been purchasing oil and gas from russia. why you're not care for this malevolent russian energy. who because you see a reorder in a g, a deficient country. really? well, i thought our economy for the well being of people really quiet chief energy and therefore russia is a reliable partner. so we have been able to utilize this window of opportunity

despite the pressure from the risk. and we will continue to do. now as you mentioned before, india is pursuing, it's our foreign policy and negotiating with the americans in doing that and deals with the american. so is russia increasing its corporation with china? and i know that traditionally, india has looked at that with a certain degree of video. once you have a major void and a spirit of in the chinese, you also have security apprehensions about the growth of china. have you seen any change in the russian chinese dynamic over the last half a year, and do you think anything substantial has changed their see one has to take of any realistic view of geo politics. you shared common borders with russia? they are your immediate neighbors. we're still at a certain distance and chinese over the deep pockets, and i'm in post 2014. they were able to invest in your energy sector than many

other places. so it is russia's right to create that complementarity and interdependence. so russia, india does not dictate to other countries how, what kind of relations it should have with its own neighborhoods. so we have no such qualms, the odd relations with the russia on its own mad it, and it would continue to beat. and we are all sure with that show would not undermine india strategic interest just because they become economic, the leak close to china. and that's actually a very interesting question. how sensitive for, according to your sources, is russia to india, security concerns? does russia make accommodations for in disposition? let's say more than it would be paying attention to other countries. of course it has the kind of weapon system that you have provided to us is very, very exclusive. you're not provided that kind of weapon system to any other country

. of course, very recently you upgraded your minority relations with china. and it wasn't when we had to problem with chinese on the line of actual control, russian met all it's contractual obligation and was to the extent of, you know, giving us more and more weapons that we needed. not these are hard times when your desk, the depth of our relationship and russia has gone, isn't to the occasion and met in expectations and would continue speaking about the depth of the relationship as well as military corporation. as we are recording this interview, the russians and the chinese are conducting di, traditional neva, and they've been drills. and one of the things that i heard from russian military analyst is that while china has a very impressive navy, both in terms of human capacity, in terms of their sense, they lock in the experience and expertise of the actual warfare. and that this is

something that the russians maybe sharing with that chinese neighbors, that were the case. would that be a concern for in then? you see, if you train a chinese navy, feel it, maybe it is not of any concern. you have a relationship with this engine, navy is very strong and our sphere of influence is into the indian ocean region. and by virtue of our strategic geography, we have a very good domination debt a we are interested in getting aud open to solve china c. but it's purely from the point of view that 60 percent for the boss is through that. and we want freedom of navigation, but you would see that we are not joined freedom of navigation, exercise americans at anybody. so i think our navy is really very, very professional and it's very, very jan and it can secured in just national interest in the indian ocean region. and we will be start to start with you mentioned geography. and i think one of the

interesting features of the increasing cooperation between russia and china and also, you know, i thing as a sign of trust in a ways that both russia and china can afford to expand last on guarding their own border, which is no small thing because it's for more than 4000 kilometers long, and essentially russia can now divert it's attention to the west. china can deal with its problems in the pacific and the 2 are essentially standing back to back. i don't know how long it will historically last, and that's why i wanted to ask you, do you think this current level of trust when you can turn your back to, you know, a country with which we also had the border disputes in the past. do you think it's primarily necessitated by the difficulties with the west or it can sustain itself historically? this is a big question and this all depends on how you manage your by later traditions of china. in the past you had problems and sent alicia today in future also,

no country would like to see and other guntee with the large military next door. and particularly if that country turns to be the vision is send it want to or to the geography. these concerns must think that's a real prospect though, on the part of chinese, because they claim that they have no intention. chinese have done in south china sea. and the, what you call is the 1949 train lane or war they have done elsewhere, even on the indian borders. well, it does of your certain indications that well, the cartographic consciousness is very high. and do you think it's the same? they let the shift in the land map and the shifts in the maritime maps. no, no, since you have resolved your border issues with china, that in france doesn't come truly in maturity terms. it is in the economic sphere of influence. you see, look at central issue where you had such

a good blow in such a good influence. today, chinese economic engagement is more than $50000000000.00. i think yours would be to the tune of $20.00 to $30000000000.00 shaw. the economic influence scanned desert into the political influence and the countries of your neighbors. your neighboring countries will make political choices, which are more in con, grants with chinese strategy can just like an interest. you look at belton road in issue of a. it's a chinese who are calling the shots and well, it does integrating economies. so this does or the new forms of influences than not the military influence which on board burton integrates. what isn't really and so competitive. and it seems to be suggesting, because i assume that the, the current level of corporation in russia in china would also allow china russia for that matter to take that sensitive issues into account. i'm of the view that

if the vest heard not enforced, if law make sanctions against russia and 2014, probably the trajectory of russia, china relations, whatever very different can i also ask you about the trajectory of the chinese engine relationship because it's hard to imagine that the other 2 pair of countries which would benefit more from, you know, that synergy is strong, combining their forces. but you have a border dispute, as we mentioned, and there is a general climate of suspicion there. what keeps this dynamic of mistrust so entrenched and is it possible to overcome or then time india tried to level best to have very harmonious relations in china. from 1993 till 2013, we signed a series of agreement for peace building peace and tranquility on the border. and

on the use of force ran, india was going through a complicated situation of russian. sorry, the chinese there while they did all those elements and they use military force for change or strapped to school abeline of actual control. what do, what does india make or conflict? then that means that, well, they do not want peace and they want probably be on their own dumps that they want to china and take asia in which they feel. india is a big bomb predictive and it is good time to put india in its place. but given the size of india and the confidence that we hold, we will not permit any country under the sun to stretch equally cautious and act his way. you know, we've taken dick boist goo miller to, to sponsors with china, has understood, and hopefully with these lessons it will have to have a shouldering effect on chinese or to negotiate with us from

a position of battery. what i'm hearing from you is that the chinese needs here revision some of the wisdoms of sons who actually are good for mutual accommodation rather than 0, some outcomes. anyway, major general, we have to live in there. thank you very much for your time. thank you. so much, thank you. thank you for watching you hope the syria again was a part ah with me ah ah,

with ah shows a regrouping of its forces for the northern front lines in ukraine to reinforce it, intent showing in the region. also in the shape of the week the shows but who are sitting a price cap on russian resources is an absolutely stupid idea. if political decisions are made and they go against contracts, then we will simply not fulfill them. we will not supply anything if it's against our interest and slammed the decision of g 7 countries to put the price cap on russia. feel.