ah, with welcome will get parts one of the most celebrated generals in human history, sons to employ his followers to know the enemy and try to subdue without fighting, to send the old word to the art of we're still part of the curricular in many military academies, around the world and the number and the scale of conflicts is on the increased isn't even possible to retire more as a means of politics or to discuss that i'm now joined by vicky sharman major general of the indian armed forces and director of the united service institution of india, major general is a great, great pleasure and great honor for me to join you. thank you very much for your time. thank you for inviting me. now in your analysis of the conflict in ukraine,

you often make the point that the west wasn't able to clearly see what was the rushes threat. perceptions are you sure it was due to the lack of understanding or on the contrary, a clear realization of what wasn't stake there for russia and ukraine, and a very deliberate, very conscious decision to ignore russia security concerns. yes, of course, there is no denying the fact that russia has been defining its red lines very clearly. it also articulated its national security concerns. and the most important of those was that this palmer soviet union state should not be incorporated in that too. because that goes walter d 300 miles away from saint rita's book. so of whatever reason, the vest actually step to will those claims. similarly,

there was also no follow up on the means. no accord, 20142015. and subsequently what happened? the rest was helping ukraine to build up its miller d capability. and there was a kind of a perception in russia that they could be a preemptive strike. one, been boston and crimea. and therefore, i think it was a hobson choice for russia to take this pre em to what you cause the military entry into your claim. i would love to discuss the logic of that decision and the rationale of that decision with before we go there, let me ask you specifically about the expansion of nato, because i read somewhere and that kind of leads arrives back in 2008 and the book credit summit where you cranes intention to join the airlines was formally welcomed for the 1st time that come to lisa rice stated explicitly there. and then the cold war was over and russia needed to accept that last. do you think this and dr to

expand nato wasn't primarily motivated by strategic and security considerations in the west, or wasn't simply about psychology to sort of force rush into submission and recognition of, of it's losing status. wasn't about security or psychology to put it simply. i think curb it was who breeze on american parked. they became overconfident off to the brick of the soviet union. and probably because of historic and animosities they created, wanted to create more dial months for russia. and that is way boston. the break up of for soviet union, george canon was really, i think, every day and he was prescient. when he said with the new core, what has been then under the milestone was 22008 when bush wanted villa ukraine to join. and mr. put in really, really hard to articulate his objection and what happened that well,

we are sure entered all of cars cars. yeah. and so to see sure. then there's not 2014, a madden operating, took place and dead after the show was left with no other choice than to go to crimea and been bust region. and since then things have only been brewing up. and that has been coupled with economic sanctions, which is actually being very, very rude and really, really discriminatory towards russia. so it's coupled up these factors and of that deliberate attempt by america and western countries to expand natural, which is actually a poor structure to take recourse to the section. now, you mentioned russia signaling and that disagreement with western strategy and even taking some forceful action for example in 2008. but i think that without any doubt, the february decision was the most dramatic of all, not only for the will,

but also for the russians. most of us are shocked that russia is now using military force against our neighbor and we still consider ukrainians to be our brothers. i mean, in literal terms because most of us have families there. if you were advising the russian general staff and i am asking you not as a political analyst, but as a, as a military man, as a man who has to consider in a strategic room, if occasions do you think russia had any other option at its disposal, to on the one hand, address the danger of encroachment of nato. but on the other hand, without using military force because clearly there are major consequences associated with that, both ethically and humanitarian. li, if i was dead and somebody was really listening to me, then i would have perhaps otherwise some modest chain. there was

a very strong c prong ability posting, which russia had already adopted. so we should have rated for some more time because with one lack 90000 groups, 190000 troops. it was very difficult for you in any other force to enter crime. y'all done boss. second issue as a military analysts say fees that are shut, initial strategy back similar strategy to go to key and sort of go to clark you in these areas. this was probably not well pot through. and that is way, you know, the objectives was that you will be able to bring about a political effort to leash and disarm euclidean armed forces by about 12th of march. but that did not come through. and then there was a deeper to the, a east east issue can in again. so that was there were to build some of those casualties or award to build the logistics of board the compliment entity in the

thought line. the coordination command control communication issues. they did not work out of band all the way it should happen in the classic miller to campaign. but you mentioned the classic merger campaign. and over the last couple of years, all we've been hearing from the western, from the east is that, you know, the age of old wars. kinetic wars is over. you know, all the wars will now be hybrid information wars, perhaps some use of special forces. some use of espionage, perhaps for slack operations, but the real army against army clash is know, is already a part of history. don't you think that this latest development demonstrated that perhaps we haven't retired war prematurely? because it seems to be a reality not only in europe, but also in increasing reality. now in the pacific when the united states and china seemed to be and the longer had see, i think we had or what played this sir. ita,

live in soft closet campaigns. india has fought hybrid was in bunger dish. you also were preparing for a hybrid war. and what happened in you can in was a typical hybrid water right from 2040. so it has only validated that i live in an important so hybrid bought it. even today, the vestos being a proxy walk in ukraine. so this was, is actually the spectrum up. conflict is much wider. it starts from the lower in, in the non contact, non kinetic domain, then it goes up, the escalation led it across the spectrum, up conflict to a full fledged water, which via seeing rid the disk of nuclear escalation, suppose nectar would have intervenes. then russia had, you know, booked it up with nuclear forces on operational readiness. so we can not to sort of doertry date, very short kind of observations and make

a pretty definite conclusion sort of as heart wrenching as this war is. and it is indeed hearts ranching for most russians. i think it has demonstrated to the world that russia has a credible deterrence that it will use knowledge her force if it's vital interest ah, threatened. what about the quality of western to turns? and the credibility of western and it turns, do you think the world believes that the americans would resort to the use of military force as they, as they claim, see, differences of mind games. so what we have seen earlier, what happened in georgia, americans did not intervene. similarly video, the simply the, the video from of gun east on and even the presence in iraq has turned on. and there, the leadership is on record to say that we will not physically intervene in ukraine because we'd run the risk of, you know, escalating into the new. you're also on record to say that we will physically

intervene if there is an issue in taiwan. so look, sit, i won't, situation is very different. and again, you know, if you recall, and mr. barton made that statement, then the white house had resigned from that statement that what he meant was this, what not this, you know, so this still falling, that strategic ambiguity in taiwan contingency. but here they have taken a more strident position. what they will do everything except actually entering physically into ukraine and for that, escalating the situation to an extent that russia would be forced to up the ante. now speaking about deterrence, i think it was president theodore roosevelt or us defined it as speaking softly and carry any longer rec. yeah, but one century after his death, it seems that the americans are actually made the reverse that they're, they're not speaking softly. they're speaking of noxious me very rudely. but do you

think that stick at this point of time is long enough to force that enemies or adversaries to do what they want to do? that bidding, i may not entirely agree with your analysis because you see that is a great retrenchment which is taking place in united states. they have withdrawn from most of the countries and of garnished on is a case and quite that was the only award there in your isha. so they're gone back and all what they're doing, you know, they're trying to sort of for offload most of the ability to sponsibility to the natural partners and put them in the front line and act as way you would see when president tom was dead. he wanted the natural current is to have more share in the, in the budget of natural and us. so those are the things. so i don't think her americans are in the same position to militarily intervene in various

contingencies as it was in the basel general. isn't that perhaps even more dangerous? because if they were to take on defy directly with the russians, we could have negotiated directly and perhaps come to some sort of a solution. but when they are using the obama term fighting from the back, that is pushing the ukrainians on the front lines and pushing other peoples on to the front lines in that sort of approx and battle. it also limits our ways of coming to some sort of a mutually agreeable solution. doesn't that also jeopardize the prospects of peace? me absolutely critic and this is what looked greer's own. and margie domain warfare is all about that it has blurred the lines between the classic minority campaigns and peace. and this isn't in action, action security insecurity, delama richest, put, which will persist and their port, at least in the foreseeable future. i do not see

a way out in ukraine conflict because both sides have taken harden position and with the finland and says, straighten if they're going natural they would, would have further off the anti. so i don't see that, i think we, i thought a long haul and this conflict is going to continue, and russia will have to be prepared for that. okay, well maybe then i will have to take a very short break right now. we will be back in just a few moments. they chant a willing it to them. so booty with no cranium. tv, audio soon enough idea. she ship a dr. lien that ship for a control in particular bought so you should she'll go delete it via mobile dope. i liked the system really been that did not sing device such

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a with i or i welcome back to work with because sharma major general of the indian armed forces and director of the united service institution in major general a few months ago. india prime minister miranda morty said that today the world is facing an uncertain situation as nobody is getting what they want them. he made a statement specifically after talking with his american colleague, joe biden on the phone. a conversation during which joe biden was trying to push into, into joining the western sanctions against the russia and that push wasn't very successful. why didn't india side with americans more promptly?

i mean, i would say, why should india signed with the liberty? well, because americans assumed really india is north american, dean b. we are an independent country with the largest population. so we would make decisions based on our historical and strategic days with other countries and based on our own national interest or structured security interest. and in that country of the steward of russia, who has helped india in strategic programs and has been a, is reliable partner. how can you know india look the other way around and be extremely opportunistic. so we have taken up positions purely based on our principles. and our director, or echo norma's of quadrant partners. now i'm interviewing a lot of non western speakers. there's this and

a lot of them are concerned about being caught in this economic and political crossfire between russia and the west and being penalized for even taking a neutral position. now, india is a large country. it's a very influential country. america wants it to be on its side. that's why they're sitting accommodations towards your country. but my question to you is, do you think there is any player in this world today? perhaps india, who could take it upon itself to mediate between russian to was given that you have very good ties with both sides and you, you and the rest of it will have a clear interest in making sure that the world is operational than this conflict doesn't turn into yet another global war trip. precisely. that was the reason for india abstaining at number of these, warding at the un because we wanted to maintain a neutral position and be available on interlocutor between russia and your

9 bailable as an interlocking or you're interested in being that additionally we would do, but it will not happen over treat firstly they have a lot of, you know, back door or, you know, behind the curtain kind of diplomacy between take place which we are ready to be sort of, if for turkey can do retirement to india is definitely in much but much better position to do it. so we will be very happy as long as we are able to facilitate peace and, and this country we will be really happy to play that. now as a horrible, again, as this conflict is. 6 are also certain upsides, let's say, for our various countries. and i know that over the last couple of months, russia has come up from a number 10 to number 4th as india's oil supplier, and many of the oil supplies that used to go to europe. and now going to india, i wonder if your country has any qualms about increasing its reliance on russia's

energy sources as your european colleagues. so painfully trying to extricate themselves from that. no, if we had an equal arms, then despite the western pressures, we wouldn't have been purchasing oil and gas from russia. why you're not care for this malevolent russian energy. who because you see a reorder energy and deficient country. really, well, i thought our economy for the well being of people really quiet chief energy and therefore russia is a reliable partner. so we have been able to utilize this window of opportunity despite the pressure from the risk. and we will continue to do now, as you mentioned before, india is pursuing, it's on foreign policy and negotiating with the americans in doing that and deals with american. so is russia increasing its corporation with china? and i know that traditionally, india has looked at that with

a certain degree of once you have a major voice dispute of, in the chinese, you also have security apprehensions about the growth of china. have you seen any change in the russian chinese dynamic over the last half a year and do you think anything substantial has changed their c one has to take of any realistic view of geo politics you shared common borders with russia? they are your immediate neighbors. we are still at a certain distance and chinese over the deep pockets, and i'm in force 2014. they were able to invest in your energy sector than many other places. so it is russia's right to create that complementarity and interdependence. so russia, india does not dictate to other countries how, what kind of relations it should have with its own neighborhoods. so we have no such qualms. there are relations with the russia on its own magic,

and it would continue to be. and we are also aware that the show would not undermine india strategic interest just because they become economically close to china. and that's actually a very interesting question. how sensitive for, according to your sources, is russia to india, security concerns? does russia make accommodations for in disposition? let's say more than it would be paying attention to other countries. of course it has the kind of weapon system that you have provided us is very, very exclusive. you're not provided that kind of weapon system to any other country off course. very recently, you upgraded your minority relations with china. and it wasn't when we had to problem the chinese on the line of actual control, russian met all it's contractual obligation and was to the extent of, you know, giving us more and more weapons that we needed. not these are hard times when your

desk, the depth of our relationship and russia has gone into the occasion and met indian expectations and would continue sticking about the depth of the relationship as well as military corporation. as we are recording this interview and the russians and the chinese are conducting di, traditional neva and maybe drills. and one of the things that i heard from russian military analyst is that while china has a very impressive navy, both in terms of human capacity, in terms of their sense, they lock in the experience and expertise of the actual warfare. and that this is something that the russians may be sharing with that chinese neighbors. that's where the case would that be a concern for in then? you see, if you train a chinese navy feeling, navy, it is not of any concern. you have a relationship with this. indian navy is very strong and our sphere of influence is

into the indian ocean region. and by virtue of our strategic geography, we have a very good domination debt. a we are interested in getting aud open to solve china c, but it's purely from the point of view of that 60 percent of the bosses through that . and we want freedom of navigation, but you will see that we are not joined freedom of navigation, exercise americans at anybody. so i think our navy is really very, very, very professional. and it's very, very jan and it can secured and just national interest in the indian ocean region. and we will be satisfied with that. you mentioned geography. and i think one of the interesting features of the increasing corporation between russia and china and those. so i have a sign of trusted anyways that both russia and china can afford to expand last on guarding their own border, which is no small thing because it's for more than 4000 kilometers long. and

essentially russia can now divert it's attention to the west. china can deal with its problems in the pacific and the 2 are essentially standing back to back. i don't know how long it will historically last, and that's why i wanted to ask you, do you think this current level of trust when you can turn your back to, you know, a country with which we also had to border disputes in the past. do you think it's primarily necessitated by the difficulties with the west or it can sustain itself? historically? this is a big question and this all depends on how you manage your, by later traditions that china in the past you had problems incent, alicia rate in future. also, no country would like to see another country with the large military next door. and particularly if that country turns to be the future is send it want to or to the geography. these concerns must think that's a real prospect though,

on the part of chinese because they, they claim that they have no intention. chinese have done in south china on see at the what you call is the 1949 train lane or ward they have done elsewhere, even on the indian borders. well, it does give you a certain indication that will, the cultural graphic consciousness is very high, and do you think it's the same, the, the shift in the land map and the shifts in the maritime maps? no, no, since you have resolved your border issues with china, that in france doesn't come truly in maturity terms. it is in the economic sphere of influence. you see, look at central issue where you have such a good blog in such good influence to the chinese economic engagement is more than $50000000000.00. i think yours would be to the tune of $20.00 to $30000000000.00 shaw. the economic influence scanned desert into the political influence and the

countries of your neighbors. your neighboring countries will make political choices, which are more income grants with chinese strategy, can just reckon interest. you look at beltran road, an issue of a, it's a chinese who are calling the shots and well, it just integrating economies. so this does are the new forms of influences than not the military influence, which i bought burton and didn't produce well, isn't really. and so competitive, and it seems to be suggesting because i assume that the, the current level of cooperation between russia and china would also allow china russia for that matter to take that sensitive issues into account. i'm of the view that if the vest heard not enforced economic sanctions against russia and 2014 probably the trajectory of russia, china relations board, very different. can i also ask you about the trajectory of the chinese engine relationship because it's hard to imagine the other 2 pair of countries which would

benefit more from, you know, they synergies from combining our forces. but you have a border dispute, as we mentioned, then there's a general climate of suspicion. there. what keeps this dynamic of mistrust so entrenched and is it possible to over comment in time? india trade it's level best to have very harmonious relationship with china. strong, 199-318-2013. this signed a see these of agreement poppies, building piece and tranquillity on the border. and on the use of force. when india was going through a complicated group situation, aggression a saudi, the chinese, they violated all those elements and they use military force to change the strata, school abeline of actual control. now what do, what does india make or topics?

then that means that, well, they do not want peace and they want probably peace on their own domes that they want to china and take asia in which they feel. india is a big computer and it is good time to put india in its place. but given the size of india and the confidence that we hold, we will not permit any country under the sun to stretch equally courses. and actors way, you know, we've taken, or screw miller to responses which i know has understood. and hopefully, with these lessons it will have a scherbring effect on chinese or to negotiate with us from a position of battery. what i'm hearing from you is that the chinese needs here revision some of the wisdoms of sans who actually are good for mutual accommodation rather than 0, some outcomes. anyway, major general, we have to live with there. thank you very much for your time. thank you. so much

thank you and thank you for watching hope to syria again. was a part of ah with mm ah, what he's got to do is identify the threats that we have it, treaty, confrontation, let it be an arms race is on offensive, very dramatic development. only personally and getting to resist. i don't see how that strategy will be successful. very difficult. i'm time to sit down and talk

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