[000:00:00;00] hold oh ah. hello and welcome to cross talk. we're all things considered. i'm peter lavelle, official. kevin, it's media trolls have made much of the recent counter offensive. however, there gleeful backing of ukraine has demonstrated beyond a doubt. this is a nato war on russia. the stakes could not be higher. one side will lose and badly

. ah cross sucking nato's war on russia. i'm joined by my guest garland nixon in washington. he's a political analyst in tampa. we have larry johnson. he is managing partner for burg associates and a former c i, a analyst and u. s. department of state counterterrorism official. and here in moscow we have maxime switch off. he is the director of the institute of international studies at moscow state institute of international relations. i gentleman cross our girls in effect, that means you can jump any time you want. and i always appreciate. let's go to larry 1st in tampa. much has been made about this. so counter offensive or on cargo of not much was gain not much was lost at the end of the day, but it's good media fodder. good for the propaganda narrative. what is not mentioned in the narrative is that during the summer the ukrainian army was destroyed. now we have a nato army with ukrainian foot soldiers and mercenaries, but this is nato's war against russia. agree or disagree with that? go ahead, larry. well, it's,

it's certainly moving in that direction that there were still ukrainians lee for leading the fight on this. but when you look at the quality of the troops, they were untrained, they had little experience, and they did not know how to properly use the weapons of. it was shocking an article in the washington post. earlier this week with the interviewed individuals in the hospital, you did my cranium soldiers and when they go through that, these guys are saying, look, we're getting our gun. we're being losing 5 of us every one russian that does die or one ukrainian from the don bass. and we don't, we send out 5 shells and we're getting hit with a 100. so that is enabled by the nato nato was making that happen. and i think it, it is, it's becoming a very dangerous situation, because like, i think, i just saw a comment or a message from russia to, to nato that, you know,

if you put in long range weapons, you have crossed the red line. and the russians don't make idle threats. maxime, in this basically the same to you because the way it's frame this is russia and ukraine. but it seems, i mean, in zalinski said already in the last few days on seeing that the without american support, he can continue his effort here. and then you have western media sources gleefully saying, yeah, well, the americans and nato, they were all behind the great offensive in cortico. i mean, this is, it's not internationalize, it's nato eyes, and it's putting russia against nato. and in the, in the conflict like this, there is no when, when is a, i to say that one's going to lose here. this is what i agree with larry, this is getting very scary. go ahead, maxime. or the thing here is, is not just demands. it kind of certain reconfiguration of military apperson, the russian side, which i think will happen. and in the short term,

it also mean if neither was on all its force and weight behind ukraine. and it's clearly the potentials of natal and russia are asked symmetric. and you know, in this kind of conventional warfare rush is likely lose, which is not accepted by moscow that demands really reconfiguring the approach to the warfare and trying to advance to other domains including non military domains. with seen, russia have use these tools as well, but it also demands on the part of russia to more pain on nato countries, including on their, you know, public ship works for, you know, support for a crane and also their economy standing in the military standing. so it indeed gets us in a more dangerous spite of confrontation,

where we're not climbing the escalation. we're jumping the escalation letter, and there are still some of the lethal military tools that russia has. it says disposal which it hasn't few so or so there's still a lot of potential for the escalation, but the only will worth some things for everyone. well, garlen me go to you and watch it in here. we did immediately after they get the so called counter offensive, we saw that the electricity grid and much of ukraine went down. that was no accident, obviously here. and it's a reminder to everyone kind of an echo, at what back seem said, is that there's a rush. the russia has a lot of tools and it's toolbox still can it has a weapon system that it has not use with. there's no been those strategic bombing, there's been no major attack on command control centers that's still all out there and it's all very possible. and i, i expected, garland. yes. and there's a hand that russia doesn't even have to play. and that's, you know,

general winters about the come riding in on his we white steed into, into europe. i think, you know, there's a lot of talk about, shall rus russell escalate. i think there is a certain level of desperation on, within nato and within the countries because they know within the next couple months, this thing's going to fall apart for them. i don't think personally russia has to. i would add soldiers simply because some of the areas they lost simply would get was because they didn't have enough personnel on the ground to hold those places and they had to retreat. and of course, on the other side, argued that it was, you know, some kind of a massive defeat. but in reality, if they kind of hold tight and make a few minor adjustments within the next few months. and, you know, the e u countries are going to be in deep and serious trouble. so i don't think russia has to make as big a moves as a lot of people. i think they've got, you know, a lot of things on their times on their side of the rolling stone with it. ok, well i'm going to use another phrase. there we go. back to larry. here. we heard

a lot in afghanistan, you've got the clock. so we've got to time, so in this case, who's got the clocks and who's got the time larry of russia has both. so the, actually i asked god reader the same exact question on this program and he gave me the same exact answer getting this guy right. so we, we haven't coordinate, we didn't coordinate on that, but, but natal does not have the troops to put in to, let's to say that they wanted to back up the ukranian army and flow and they don't have it. what we've seen in this latest offensive by the u ukrainians is that they don't have the ability to carry out that tack in depth. what that means is they're not only hitting the troops that are in front of them, but they wouldn't be attacking russian airfields russian artillery and placements. they would be disrupting supply centers in the rear than they would carry that out

with fixed wing aircraft rotary wing aircraft missiles. they don't have that. and. and so they're, they're really fighting with, with not enough weaponry, not enough armament. and they told us that have the capacity to provide that at the same time, europe is literally is into an economic tell spent the germany in particular. and so the economic elements of this is garlan correctly noted. general winter is coming and so this is going to further limit what the west can do. and yet they're becoming more desperate. this, that the euphoria over this in consequential retaking of car cough because it was a tactical withdrawal by the russians. they were not being chased down the street with a bunch of angry ukrainian soldiers. they withdrew ukrainians. come in, they're out in the open. it's much easier to kill. thanks maxime,

in the going back to who's got the time in who's got the clocks here. i mean it, at some point i would imagine to me, you know, i, it because of the, it's, so propagandized the narrative. let's, let's kind of unpack it here. i mean, nato countries are supplying arms to kill russians. okay. so why is russia still exporting energy to europe? well, i guess this is the question that a lot of people you're in russia asking in the sense, you know, it should be understood in the west, which perhaps it is in some circles, but it isn't. and now there's, there is a lot of pressure on who to take more draconian measures because you have this image of being the worst guy on the planet. but if you, if you, if you look at it from, from the perspective inside russia, you've been relatively mild and his actions and a lot of people and a lot of circus are putting pressure on the president. and the more decisive way. and you know, you know,

you asked about the energy supplies in the summer colon for a deliberate destruction of richardson. wines of supply of way to nature weaponry to ukraine. which is, you know, happened just occasionally, but probably not enough or for, you know, because these are members are involving and enabling, bringing offenses and so forth counter offenses. so i think the, the warnings and this is usually the kind of the protocol for the russian diplomacy . there's tons of warning coming of problems. and if they're not listen to then, you know, the certain actions follow the same here. i believe that the russian warnings were not taken seriously november and december last year, right in january to last year. and then we ended up with the type of mass we're dealing with the day. and again, we see some publications and mainstream us near this. it will, russia is blocking, they're not going to do anything. and in some circles, separate more pressure on western capitals,

including on the button or ministration to supply more lethal weapons. and to be, you know, more open about there's, you know, support for ukraine that would have consequences as you accurately noted, theater in your introductory remarks. this is the slide that no party can, can afford to lose. there can be no when, when, and you know, if, if we are to talk about the game here, there's obviously there's no, there is some incentives for to, to be able to find some political settlements. but the way the west is approaching this conflict is that they can win this war of attrition with re max. maxine, i mean, but you know, i'm sorry, and i'm agreeing with you here. but, you know, we had the entire min one and 2, and we have the same interlocutors, they did nothing, then they were not good faith actors. what, why should russia interact with them on, on a political level now? well, obviously i don't disagree with you on this one. it was perhaps

a way to suggest that the policy makers in washington should look into the approach where they can believe that by over financing the current over military supply and ukraine. they didn't get an upper hand here. and, you know, not encourage any thinking in terms of a political settlement. scary. now talking about the red luncheon demands and things like this. there's absolutely, in my view, no appetite for or political sentiment here. i have no appetite for political settlement. gentlemen, we're going to go to a short break, and after that short break, we'll continue our discussion on nato's war on russian state with

ah, they only be, i'm so glad they should graphic get. what is the best, i mean, one of them. this is a little bit of a lady with what i see school for carbonate for backwards, but something something that might give me a call on your cell give picks data, which it said to jeff. i knew the minimum gum can be comma, a utah and the communist. somebody mp community that they've got a not result. like it's supposed to be set up. like you said affected door bully out of that too. i didn't need it with us. that's a disclaimer. but then with the routing just leaving it right, nobody for whether you do both is looking at them during

the summer because i've my seat, not with so much but he did. we're can i love chris? was it was the case. look, and then you build us over for you that they should give you that. i think it's an open pick up and that we're still a belgian when of over loving us to get to know because of a

ah, welcome back across stock were all things are considered. i'm peter belcher, manager were discussing nato's war on russia with his collector. garland in in d. c. i want to continue the discussion i was having with maxine, gonna let me and it was already mentioned here in december. the russians sent out 2 notes, all ultimatums, whatever you want to call them, to nato, into the united states. they were turned down. they were not taken seriously about the prospects of a, a military technical reaction to, for russia to ensure its security that was ignored. then we had february 24th, then we had the assemble process. we're lindsley zelinski regime appeared to be on the brink of making some kind of compromise to wind the war down. we know now that

boris johnson and others blew it off, said no, we're going to, we won't. if you make a piece, we're not going to be backing you. you don't have, we won't have your back. ok, i mean, and we can go back 8 years if you want all the way from the qu, so i don't see any kind of settlement here. there's a joseph burrell, which is a buffoon, the cheap diplomat for dip for europe. he said that it will be settled on the battlefield. well, that's one thing. i agree with him on go ahead girl. i don't necessarily agree with him on that. and as far as any type of diplomatic settlement, as we say here, and in the black community in america, there's a saying that goes like this, which i'm but somebody shows you who they are, i believe. so the reality is they've got understand that the actual clean for the u . s. empire is not to get any kind of a settlement. it's to destroy russia, to tear russia to pieces and to steal the resources. you cannot bargain with someone who plans what a she can't bargain with a wolf. they plan to swallow you whole. so, but the issue, i think,

is the battlefield right now. the weakness of nato, the weakness of you is political and economic. so it rushes right now, their strength is to say, well, you've got people in the streets everywhere, they're not happy. you've. you just had a economic turn of events in italy. i mean political in sweden. so realistically, the, the right now, one of the things that i think that's happening with the u. s. as in power is coalition. you notice i don't say nato, because nato is nothing but an umbrella organization for the u. s. to do to control europe's foreign policy. but right now their concern is that things are falling apart. and if they're colo coalition is going to fall apart with the anger of the citizens. so i, you know, a lot of people think is the battle field. i don't think that's where this things decided. i think when the people of europe start tearing europe, literally a brick by brick to pieces. and either there will be new leadership in europe,

or there won't be much of your left cold, hungry, angry people are not rational and they can be very violent. well, larry, i, i tend to agree with the garland, but the americans will turn to the europeans and say, well, you have to suffer. ok. i mean, you know, that, that's one of the great mysteries for me. you know, we were, we have solidarity westerns off a different the americans, they'll give a hoot what happens to the europeans at all. okay. even less so about the ukrainians. larry right now, know what they're almost being treated as if they're some human over the human toll, the spin experienced both by the ukrainians and by the russians along the border with ukraine. it is is horrific. but the darlin had it right with respect to that when people are cold and hungry, all the other politics disappear. and there is such an enormous disconnect right now between the political lead,

shipped in europe and in the united states. and between the people that the average citizens example in germany, they're talking about the $3.10 businesses is already closed. that people are getting the heads with utility bills that are 56, sometimes 10 times what they were paying long family businesses that endured world war 2. if you can imagine that like a bakery or being forced to close down and what is the leadership in germany? talking about what we need to set up a fund to promote more green energy. i mean, good god, it is. it's madness. well, but that's no and they are and sorry i was going to add on top of that is that, you know, now there's talk about giving food stamps to america, american military personnel because because of inflation and in the same new cycle, the neck, i've lost track i don't know anybody can tell me how many tranches of military aid

has been sent to ukraine this year. i've lost count of last under the number and the, the, the dollar price number here. i mean it's, it's amazing it, but i'm agreeing with larry because this is in a elite agenda here. maxime, you know, we're talking about the minutia now. but, you know, you're, you're a jew political thinker. there is no way back. i mean february 24th is a line in the sand. um because as i said like with mens $1.00 and $2.00 which is so obscure to western audiences, you know, this is not the 7th or 8th month of this conflict. this is the 8th year of this conflict. people don't understand that in the west year. but, you know, russia is making a complete re orientation elsewhere. because why would russia under any circumstances right now? do you with any of these western leaders? they're obviously off their rocker. go ahead. look at the i have to say and everyone understands that there is just now just one battle going on. but if you battled some 2 levels of the same time, you know, ukraine is

a theater in the new world making meaning, making processes globally, obviously. and one way is the european politicians seek to deal with it is not to seek solutions for the crisis. and, you know, some kind of deal with russia, so to speak, but the channel, the anger of their people and my colleagues spoke about to russia, right? the common. but we're, so leave me that you can send your, you know, bills to moscow, shows you that there are no solutions for the problems. the people have the names that they want to channel their anger towards rush that's wanting. secondly, they can, like i said, they believe that they buy locate more financial aid and military hardware to ukraine is a solution, not the solution and they are new to the concept that i think there's also where is it likely to fail? secondly, i think old mosque,

when and washington and brussels in and other capital, the worst realize that there is a really big, a global struggle for the athenians and the hearts and minds of the global south. and the fact that, you know, countries that are not in the west lea, a decisive role. and how, you know, these come to play out in the welfare of russia. and the west is also telling that there is the era of $990.00. the kind of the human fuller moment is gone and the multiple world is, is in the making. and finally, have to say there is a split between the interest of the united states and europe is the united states has been a lot more pragmatic than the european and exported russian gas in the know and dealing with the prices of oil and exporting other material and resources from russia and trying to has their own risks here and then emerge as

a quote unquote mediator in the conflict when on elses finds themselves in terrible shape. that i think is also spotted in moscow. ah, it, well it's, it's, it's really interesting carland because the way i look at this here that the, the big picture of it all the, the entire e u project and this ridiculous offensive organization, nato. it's all on the line right now because everybody's all in on this here. that's why i said in my introduction, one side will lose and badly. and that's the stakes that we see right now. the entire e u project i think is it's a and then, and, and nato is at stake here. and the russians know it. go ahead. garland. yeah, cuz what we're seeing is a contradiction and obvious contradiction between the u. s. empire and the concept of democracy. and so now we're seeing that the people in europe are figuring out that they don't have democracy. they don't have independence, they don't have sovereignty, they don't have a leadership that is looking out for their constituency, and they're not going to be happy about that. i think you also have to look at this

through the context worldwide in the u. s. is trying to up the, the heat on taiwan also. so to some extent, i think we have 3 super powers. i believe we have a fairly responsible government in china, fairly responsible government in russia and a bunch of med dogs in washington. and that, unfortunately, for russia in china, it is kind of incumbent upon their leaders to usher in a new world order without um, provoking or get without getting these med dogs to a point that they push a nuclear button. i believe it can be done. and i believe that's why russia and china, so he's showing so much constraint. i think they understand that, and i think they will, they will be able to do that. ok, larry, take take a swing at that. that's really interesting. what garland just said there is, are there reasonable enough people in washington to, to get that because we're in the facilities trap. okay. and we see it left, right and centre. are they going to right to make the right make the right decision?

evidence would say they won't go ahead. larry. washington is infested with corrupt little potions right out all these tiny, tiny people with tiny, tiny brains running around. what has had, what has happened is and gone. correctly noted it, the when history looks back at this period, this will be the formation of a new world order in terms of the multi polarity. the end of united states had gemini in the world, the end of the united states, as the holder of the reserve currency. and the united states did it to itself. russia did not look for this cause they didn't try to provoke this. russia kept looking and thinking, i think i'm naive, lee, that there was going to be some adult in washington d. c. they would step opposite that. ok, look, let's put all this other nonsense aside. let's tom. and they didn't do that. they said, yeah, we can, we can defeat russia. let's impose sanctions and not

a single soul. and the intelligence community is the best i could determine, sat down and said, hey, what do we do about the fact that russia is self sufficient economically, and controls a whole range of commodities and minerals and rare earth minerals that do we need in the west to survive, and they set them on. the interesting thing is, is a, you know, met rochelle, they makes up 3 percent of g, d global g, d, p. well, who would have thought that 3 percent was really important? nobody, nobody set down the powder of the cost. i mean that's was so truly shocking about this. and now there is literally the economics unami that's headed our way it's going to affect the global depression. if anybody thinks that the collapse of the economy and germany, it will just be an isolated event. then you know that there is no basis to have

a discussion with somebody stupid. yeah. well i doubt that that's why you know, i don't watch cable tv outside of tucker carlson or a gentleman. fascinating discussion. i want to thank my gets in washington, tampa. and in moscow, i want to thank our viewers for watching us here are to see you next time. remember crosstalk rules are no one. no, sir, no, no, admiral hook. no, no. what door? more shrill than what they should end up unit 73. 1 was a unique organization in the history of the world. what they were trying to do was to simply do nothing short and build the most powerful and most deadly

biological weapons program that the world had ever. no real good, you know, took production issue or sure doug did that. they're not eligible. no new son, new rochelle, he one more mom. she no longer thought this meant going to move one of our funding and i got the owner myself. i got your name. i got on monday, i wish to know about joy. oh, new. i know he didn't also more polish dinner, jr. let's. i had to put the sky, mother and all your buddy bill could you could help us out. oh boy, that's good to go on. what the on this well, she, my new honor. i'm all, i can send more or 7,

a issues with just look up for a muscle around noon. she doesn't being in the green show on a nurse to me, us place you mom with his ashley of at this one of the with a week i had that week our at that point, did that with that

with her phone city center has been shell by at least 5 us supplied high miles walk gates, killing, and injuring pavilion. we spoke to a local official who was in an administration building for a 5 year. unfortunately, we have an engine to come dead. we are now sorting through the rug. the administration building is damaged. frankly, we consider this a terrorist attack and protectionism vladimir putin landscape out of e. you politicians for failing to ease restrictions on russian fertilizer export about the developing countries that needs be to be shy, cooperation with the well being that people should be