u. s. department of state counterterrorism official. and here in moscow we have maxine suits of he is the director of the institute of international studies at moscow state institute of international relations. i gentleman cross out rules and effect. that means you can jump any time you want, and i always appreciate, let's go to larry 1st in tampa. much has been made about this counter offensive or on conical of not much was gain not much was lost at the end of the day, but it's good media fodder, good for the propaganda narrative. what is not mentioned in the narrative is that during the summer, the ukrainian army was destroyed. now we have a nato army with ukrainian foot soldiers and mercenaries, but this is nato's war against russia. agree or disagree with that? go ahead, larry. well it's, it's certainly moving in that direction. there were still ukrainians leading vote, leading the fight on this. but when you look at the quality of the troops, they were untrained, they had little experience. and they, we did not know how to properly use the weapons of it was shocking an article in

the washington post. earlier this week with the look interviewed individuals in the hospital, you car a wounded on crating and soldiers. and when they go through that, these guys are saying, look, we're, we're getting out gun, we're been losing 5 of us every one russian, that of the stein or one ukrainian from the don bass. and we don't, we send out 5 shells and we're getting hit with 100. so that is enabled by the nato nato was making that happen. and i think it, it is, it's becoming a very dangerous situation because i, i think i just saw a comment or, or a message from russia to, to nato that, you know, if you put in long range what weapons you have crossed to red line. and the, the russians don't make idle threats. maxime, in this basically the same to you because a, the way it's frame. this is russia and ukraine. but it seems, i mean,

in lensky said already in the last few days unseen. and that the without american support, he can continue his effort here. and then you have western media sources gleefully saying, yeah, well, the americans and nato, they were all behind the great offensive in konica. i mean, this is, it's not internationalized, it's nato ised, and it's putting russia against nato. and in the, in the conflict like this, there's no when, when is they like to say that one's going to lose here? this is what i agree with larry. this is getting very scary. go ahead. maxine, well, the thing here is, is not just demands kind of a certain reconfiguration of military apperson, the russian side, which i think will happen. and in the short term, it also means if need to is on all its force and weight behind ukraine. and it's clearly the potential of natal and russia are asked symmetric. and you know, in this kind of conventional warfare rush is likely lose,

which is not accepted by moscow that demands really reconfiguring the approach to the warfare and trying to advance for other domains including non military domains. but seen russia have use these tools as well. but it also demands on the part of russia to more pain on nato countries, including on their, you know, public ships works for, you know, support for a crane. and also their economy standing in a military standing. so indeed, gets us in a more dangerous spite of confrontation, where we're not climbing the escalation. we're jumping the escalation letter, and there are still some of the lethal military tools that russia has. it says disposal which it hasn't few so or. so there are still a lot full tension for the escalation,

but it only will will worsen things for everyone. well, it garland me got to you in washington here. we did so immediately after that the so called counter offensive we, we saw that them the electricity grade and much of ukraine went down. that was no accident, obviously here. and it's a reminder to everyone's kind of an echo at what maxime said, is that there's a rush. the russia has a lot of tools and it's toolbox still can. it has a weapon, systems that it has not used with. there's no been those strategic bombing. there's been no major attack on command control centers. that's still all out there. it's all very possible. and i, i expected, garland is in, there's a hand, the russia doesn't even have to play in that, you know, general winters about to come riding in on his a snowy white steed into, into europe. i think, you know, there's a lot of talk about your rus russell escalate. i think there is a certain level of desperation on, within nato and within the countries because they know within the next couple

months this thing's gonna fall apart for them. i don't think personally russia has to, i would add soldiers simply because some of the areas they lost simply would get was because they didn't have enough personnel on the ground to hold those places and they had to retreat. and of course, on the other side, argued that it was, you know, some kind of a massive defeat. but in reality, if they kind of hold tight and make a few minor adjustments within the next few months and, you know, the, the, the, the e u countries are going to be in deep and serious trouble. so i don't think russia has to make as big a moves as a lot of people. i think they've got, you know, a lot of things on their times on their side at their earliest go with it. ok, well, i'm going to use another phrase here. we go back to larry, here. we heard of a lot in afghanistan, you've got the clock, so we've got to time. so in this case, who's got the clocks and who's got the time larry of russia has both. so the, actually i asked god reader the same exact question on this program and he gave me

the same exact answer like getting this guy right. so we, we have and coordinate, we didn't coordinate on that, but, but natal does not have the troops to put in to, let's to say that they wanted to back up the ukranian army and flo and they don't have it. what we've seen in this latest offensive by the u ukrainians is that they don't have the ability to carry out and attack and depth. what that means is they're not only hitting the troops that are in front of them, but they wouldn't be attacking russian airfields russian artillery and placements. they would be disrupting supply centers in the rear, and they would carry that out with fixed wing aircraft rotary wing aircraft missiles. they don't have that. and, and so they're, they're really fighting with, with not enough weaponry, not enough armament, and nato doesn't have the capacity to provide that. at the same time. europe is

literally, is into an economic tell, spent a germany in particular. and so the economic elements of this is garland, correctly noted, general winter is coming and so this is going to further limit what the west can do. and yet they're becoming more desperate. this, that the of fauria over this in consequential retaking of car cough because it was a tactical withdrawal by the russians. they were not being chased down the street with a bunch of angry ukrainian soldiers. they withdrew ukrainians, come in, they're out in the open. it's much easier to kill maxime in the going back to who's got the time and who's got the clocks here. i mean it, at some point i would imagine to me, it because of the it's so propagandized the narrative. let's, let's kind of unpack it here. i mean, nato countries are supplying arms to kill russians. okay,

so why is russia still exporting energy to europe? well, i guess this is the question that a lot of people you're in rusher asked in the sense, you know, it should be understood in the west, which perhaps it is in some circles, but it isn't. and others, there is a lot of pressure on who to take more draconian measures because you have this image of being the worst guy on the planet. but if you, if you, if you look at it from, from the perspective inside, russia has been relatively mild and his actions and a lot of people are in a lot of surface or with pressure on the front of the more decisive way. and you know, you know, you asked about the energy supplies in the summer colon for deliberate destruction, of riches and wines of supply of way to nature weaponry to ukraine. which is, you know, happens just occasionally, but probably not enough or for, you know,

because these are members are involving and enabling, bringing offenses and so counter offenses. so i think the, the warnings and this is usually the kind of the protocol for the russian diplomacy . there's tons of warning coming of problems, and if they're not listen to then, you know, the certain actions follow the same here. i believe that the russian warnings were not taken seriously november and december last year, right in january to last year. and then we ended up with the type of mass we're dealing with the day. and again, we see some publications and mainstream us near this. it will russia blocking. they're not going to do anything. and some circle, separate more pressure on western capitals, including on the button or ministration to supply more lethal weapons. and to be, you know, more open about there's, you know, support for ukraine that would have consequences as you accurately noted, theater in your introductory remarks. this is the slide that no party can can

afford to lose. there can be no when, when, and you know, if, if we are to talk, you know, well, to the end game here, there's obviously there's no, there is some incentives for to, for, to be able to find some political settlements. but the way the west is approaching this conflict is that they can win this war of attrition with re max. maxine, i mean, but you know, i'm sorry, and i'm agreeing with you here. but, you know, we had the entire min one in 2 and we had the same interlocutors, they did nothing, then they were not good faith actors. what, why should russia interact with them on, on a political level now? well, obviously i don't disagree with you on this one was, was perhaps a way to suggest that the policy makers in washington should look into the approach or where they can believe that by over financing ukraine over military supplying ukraine. they didn't get an upper hand here and, you know,

not encouraged any thinking in terms of a political settlement. scary now talking about the red lunch manner and things like this. there's absolutely might be no appetite for or political sentiment here . i, on that point, there's no appetite for political settlement. gentlemen, we're going to go to a short break. and after that short break, we'll continue our discussion on nato's war on russian state with our team ah ah, in who needs to come to russian state to never tied as on ending those landscape with keys on any final speed anyone else with we will ban in the european union, the kremlin media machine,

the state on to russia today, and c. r t sputnik given our video agency roughly all planned on you to send with with awe once a year. and if i give but i need the store in this, shakira shorter went in and i'm not going to stay. last name's care. now when i'm in a national z. m

a a welcome back. across stock. were all things are considered? i'm purely belcher manager. were discussing nato's war on russia with k escalate the garland in in d. c. i want to continue the discussion i was having with our maxine carolina meet me and it was already mentioned here in december. the russians sent out 2 notes, all ultimatums, whatever you want to call them, to nato, and to be united states, they were turned down. they were not taken seriously about the prospects of a, a military technical reaction to russia to ensure its security that was ignored.

then we had february 24th, then we had the stem bull process were lindsley zelinski regime appeared to be on the brink of making some kind of compromise to wind the war down. we know now that boris johnson and others blew it off said no, we're going to, we won't. if you make a peace, we're not going to be backing it. you don't have, we won't have your back. ok. i mean, and we go, you know, back 8 years if you want all the way from the qu, so i don't see any kind of settlement here. there's, you know, joseph brown, which is a buffoon, the chief diplomat for europe. he said that it will be settled on the battlefield. well, that's one thing i agree with him on go ahead girl. i don't necessarily agree with him when that and, and as far as any type of diplomatic settlement, as we say here in, in the black community. in america, there's a saying that goes like this, which i'm but somebody shows you who they are believe. so the reality is they've got to understand that the actual clean for the u. s. empire is not to get any kind

of a settlement. it's to destroy russia, to tear russia to pieces and to steal the resources you cannot bargain with someone who plans to what she can't bargain with a wolf. they plan to swallow you whole. so, but the issue i think is not the battlefield right now. the weakness of nato, the weakness of each is political and economic. so if russia's right now, their strength is to say, well, you've got people in the streets everywhere, they're not happy you've, you just had a, an economic turn turn of events in italy. i mean, political in sweden, so realistically the, the, the right now, one of the things that i think that's happening with the u. s. as in pars coalition, you notice, i don't say nato, because nato is nothing but an umbrella organization for the u. s. to to, to control europe's foreign policy. but right now their concern is that things are falling apart and their colo coalition is going to fall apart. um, with the anger of the citizens. so i, you know, a lot of people think is the battlefield. i don't think that's where this things

decided. i think when the people of the europe start tearing europe, literally a brick by brick to pieces. and either there will be new leadership in europe, or there won't be much of your left cold, hungry, angry people are not rational and they can be very violent. well, larry, i, i tend to agree with the garland, but the americans will turn to the europeans and say, well, you have to suffer. okay. i mean, they, they, that's one of the great um mysteries for me. you know, we were, we have solidarity westerns off a different the americans, they'll give a hoot what happens to the here a, b, and it all okay. and even less so about the ukrainians. larry right now, know that they're almost being treated as if they're sub human for the human toll, the spin experienced both by the ukrainians and by the russians along the border with ukraine is, is horrific. but the garland added right with respect to that when people are cold

and hungry, all the other politics disappear. and there is such an enormous disconnect right now between the political leadership in europe and in the united states. and between the people that the average citizen, for example, in germany, they're talking about 3 and 10 businesses of already closed and people are getting hit with utility bills that are 56, sometimes 10 times what they were paying long family businesses that endured world war 2 if you can imagine that, like a bakery or being forced to close down. and what is the leadership in germany talking about, oh, we need to set up a fun to promote more green energy. i mean, good god, it is. it's madness. well, but that's no and they are and sorry i was going to add on top of that is that, you know, now there's talk about giving food stamps to american american military personnel

because because of inflation and in the same new cycle, the neck i've lost, i don't know anybody can tell me how many tranches of military aid has been sent to ukraine this year. i've lost count of lost count, the number and the, the, the dollar. now price number here. i mean, i, it's, it's amazing it, but i'm agreeing with larry because this is an elite agenda here. maxime, you know, we're talking about the minutia now, but, you know, you're, you're ju, political thinker. it, there is no way back. i mean february 24th is a line in the sand. um because as i said like with mens $1.00 and $2.00 which is so obscure to western audiences, you know, this is not the 7th or 8th month of this conflict. this is the 8th year of this conflict. people don't understand that in the west year. but, you know, russia is making a complete re orientation elsewhere. because why would russia under any circumstances right now, deal with any of these western leaders. they're obviously off their rocker. go

ahead, what i have to say, and i think everyone understands that there is just not just one battle going on, but a few battles, some few levels of the same time. you know, ukraine is a theater for really new world making, meaning, making processes globally. obviously enter one way in the european politicians seek to deal with it is not to seek solutions for the crisis and, you know, some kind of deal with russia so to say, but the channel, the anger of their people that my colleague spoke about to russia right. the common were sula, laid me that you can send your, you know, bills to moscow, shows you that there are no solutions for the problems that people have. and instead they want to channel their anger towards rush that's wanting. secondly, they can, like i said, they believe that they buy a lot more financial aid and military hardware to ukraine is

a solution. it's not the solution and there's a new to the conference that i think there's also where is it likely to fail? secondly, i think old mosque, when and washington and brussels and other capitals in the west realize that there was a really big a global struggle for the premiums in the hearts and minds of the global south. and the fact that, you know, countries that are not in the west lea, a decisive role. and how, you know, these come to lay out in the welfare of russia. and the west is also telling that there is the era of $990.00. the kind of the unit polar moment is gone and the multiple world is, is in the major. and finally, have to say there is a split between the interest of the united states and europe in the united states has been a lot more pragmatic than the european and exported russian gas in or,

and dealing with the crisis of oil and exploring other material and resources from russia and trying to hedge their own risks here and then emerge as a quote unquote mediator into conflict when everyone else's finds themselves in terrible shape. that i think is also spotted in moscow. ah it well it's, it's, it's really interesting carlin, because the way i look at this here in the big picture of it all the, the entire e u project and this ridiculous offensive organization, nato. it's all on the line right now because everybody's all in on this here. that's why i said in my introduction, one side will lose and badly. and that's the stakes that we see right now. the entire e u project i think is it's a and, and, and nato is at stake here. and the russians though, it go ahead, garland. yeah, because what we're seeing is a contradiction and obvious contradiction between the us empire and the concept of democracy. and so now we're seeing that the people in europe are figuring out that

they don't have democracy, they don't have independence, they don't have sovereignty, they don't have a leadership that is looking out for their constituency, and they're not going to be happy about that. i think you also have to look at this through the context worldwide in the u. s. is trying to up the, the heat on taiwan also. so to some extent, i think we have 3 super powers. i believe we have a fairly responsible government in china, fairly responsible, got government in russia and a bunch of med dogs in washington. and that, unfortunately for russia and china, it is kind of incumbent upon their leaders to usher in a new world order without um, provoking or get without the getting these mid dogs to a point that they push a nuclear button. i believe it can be done and i believe that's why russia and china, so it's showing so much constraint. i think they understand that and i think they will, they will be able to do that. ok, larry, take take a swing at that. that's really interesting. what garland just said there is,

are there reason well enough people in washington to, to get that because we're in that the cities trap. okay. and we see it left right and centre. are they going to right to make the right make the right decision? evidence would say they won't go ahead. larry. washington is infested with corrupt, little pushes right now. all these tiny, tiny people with tiny, tiny brains running around what has had, what has happened is and gone correctly noted it the when history looks back at this period, this will be the formation of a new world order in terms of the multi polarity, the end of the united states had gemini in the world, the end of the united states, as the holder of the reserve currency. and the united states did it to itself. russia did not look for this cause they didn't try to provoke this. russia kept looking and thinking, i think i'm naive, lee, that there was going to be some adult in washington

d. c. they would step opposite that. ok, look, let's put all this other nonsense aside. let's talk. and they didn't do that. they said, yeah, we can, we can defeat russia. let's impose sanctions and not a single soul. and the intelligence community is the best i can determine, sat down and said, hey, what do we do about the fact that russia is self sufficient economically and controls a whole range of commodities and minerals and rare earth minerals that we need in the west to survive with larry, the set them on. the interesting thing is, is a rush. oh they makes up 3 percent of g d global g d p. well, who would have thought that 3 percent was really important? nobody, nobody sat down the counter, the costs. i mean that's was so truly shocking about this. and now there is literally the economics tsunami that's headed our way. it's going to affect the

mobile depression. if anybody thinks that the collapse of the economy in germany, it will just be an isolated event that you know that there's no basis to have a discussion with somebody that's stupid. yeah, well yeah, that's why you know, i don't watch cable tv outside of tucker carlson or a gentleman. fascinating discussion. i want to thank my guests in washington, tampa, and in moscow i want to thank our viewers for watching us here at ortiz. see you next time remember crosstalk. ah, ah william no one no, no, not a joke. no, no or more real than what they should of unit 73. 1 was

a unique organization in the history of the world. what they were trying to do was to simply do nothing short and build the most powerful and most deadly biological weapons program that the world had. every now she questioned india us very often is whose rule is the global order playing by and the se, or becomes an option and a forum for a different set of countries of the world. just see that this is a non western grouping. they're all very strong political leaders in their own right in these countries. and they are energy power houses, economic bo houses, they have large population, you know, and they're saying that is a different part of the world that say, look at a different grouping. mm. ah,

mobile is this the best of both? no issue, but for the mobile one, annual g d p per capita is about $4000.00 euros. a watch the shmear of man i primary cost is sealed with where you find them all the love to come out. a little thought they would have thought of unemployment is off the chart. moldova territorial integrity and sovereignty. we respect a country which enjoys financial support from the u. s. and the you is constantly roth by political and corruption scandals. but all that didn't stop mo, google obtaining you candidate status in 2022.

no, only one main thing is important for knox. ism internationally speaking, that is that nations. but that's allowed to do anything. all the master races. and then you have the minor nations who are the slaves. merican brock, obama and others have had a concept of american exceptionalism. and international law exist as long as it serves american interest. if it doesn't, it doesn't exist by turning those russians into this. danger is boy a man that wants to take over the world. that was a culture strategy and walked out of it on your own english. i not, felicia, too often. zip on in tablet block. nato said it's ours. we moved east. the reason

this is so dangerous, is it the law, the sovereignty of all the countries, the exceptionalism that american uses and its international war planning is one of the greatest threats to the populations of different nations. if nature, what disbanded shareholders in united states and elsewhere in large obs companies would lose millions of millions or is business and business is good. and that is the reality of what we're facing. which is fashion with

a, [000:00:00;00] with among cocher regional residents here report to late begins thing down those labeled collaborators after last week withdrawal of russian lead forces if you want gas open all stream to president buddy, mit fruits in coal for functions on the pipeline. we lifted saying russia has nothing to do with europe. energy prices and south africa should not be punished for having russia as his partner. the message to the west from the