in region, there's no question that indian needs strong partners. so there is that reality. however, they specifically in the context of, i would say 2 things. one is the envision of ukraine in february this year. and one is a general perception that there is a kind of divergence on definitions of what democracy stands for in the west and in other parts of the world. india is kind of finding it says caught in the middle. it took a very nuance, very, you know, very a very new and position on ukraine and i don't think it had really any options at that time in terms of indian realities, regional realities, foreign policy compulsion. i think it did the best it could and i'm talking about in february. well, let's talk about that in more. yeah. so this diversion used on conflict and there is no escaping the fact that india has benefited

a great deal from destruction in the oil trade in russian. the west came as a result of that conflict. your country has increased its purchase as of all from russia, tremendously secure and sent really large stocks of oil and gas at affordable prices. when many countries are struggling with galloping information, do you think that was a wrong move on the part of indian? you know, i don't know if there's any right and wrong in a specific sense in foreign policy because these decisions are taken. keeping many factors in mind, so from the perspective of wender, india should have made a stronger alliance with the west, against the russian invasion. it may seem as it may be seen as something that was deliberate and beneficial. on the other hand, as an emerging economy with its own compulsions of employment, and you know, inflation and things like that. the need for reliance on non western partners is an

indian reality, and it has been an indian reality that predates the invasion of ukraine. so in the us position, the idea of strategic autonomy, the foreign policy basis, or that in their works with right now is basically making the argument that india chooses. its partners and allies are differently. it shows that it's economic relationships differently. so you can even see, for example, that just just now in this last week alone in india has stayed out of the trailer at the end of pacific economic forum. and on the other hand, it is taking a leadership role at the shanghai corporation organization meeting the thing business back is done. so in this thing, we're partnering with the quad on certain things we're partnering with the indian difficult balancing that you've been doing for many take it out. can i ask you quickly about the, the so called democratic credentials that are democratic values that's supposedly

headed towards the west because she, you know, i would give it to india it's it looks like an authentic democracy. but when we look at the west, the with not only various democratic purchases there in terms of how the governments are being elected. but all those wars launched are voluntarily all the carnage that they have caused all the insecurity. all degrees that they have. i just form or warning, what i'm struggling to marry about with all this rhetoric about your project values based order. i just, yeah, that's why it needs that kind of sort of western democratic stuff when it's democracy itself seem to be more jenny, a jenny and then some of the western democracies. yeah. so, you know, i think that's an interesting question on that. you've asked me and you could argue in some way that maybe india is facing an identity crisis of its own right. from

the time of independence, india has had a history of modeling. it says on western liberalism secularism, individual liberties and things like that. what we're seeing is a reaction to you know, a western beast order coming from part of the world. and i think when you look at that, in the point that you mentioned on the face of it, yes, it's a strong democracy. we have elections every 5 years. there's a huge mandate for this government. there's no question about it. what does the government do with its mandated democracy? i keep saying, and this is a perhaps applicable to russia as well. a democracy is not just about the will of the majority. it's also about the protection of the minorities. and so that becomes the baseline. it's about the protection of institutions that support individual freedoms. but then i don't want to mention it. i refer interrupting here. i think

many are russians in many chinese, and frankly, many of by indian guess have argued that the primary goal of the government is serving the people and the any government should be judged not on the not so much on the quality of the procedures. although that is important, but on the actual results and on the improvement in the lives of the people. and when we look at the actual speakers of people, based from poverty for india, for russia, we're china. the record is pretty strong. the same cannot be sad about western countries, not about you know, it's more about europe. so are they ultimately democratic i'd be serving that population in this don't make sense? yes. so i think those are valid criticisms of santa there's no question about the fact that was a valid question. they're valid criticism. i mean, again, take a look at what happened in the week of the invasion of ukraine in february, right. what was the reaction and the commentary from non western countries? how is it ok for the west to have gone into iraq and afghanistan and the middle

east, and blah, blah, blah. and you know, so this is a hypocrisy in the word order. and i think that hypocrisy is bad and plain for everyone to see. however, so india, i think the question and the challenges. while there may be a hypocrisy, that sleigh bed, what is it, what are the values that the indian democratic system stands for? and is the indian democratic system firmly believes that, you know, an aggression or war is not the way to solve border conflicts, or that, you know, minority writes need to be protected everywhere in the world. how do you balance that with, with the realities of the world that you're living in? so why, while while india manages it's strategic autonomy carefully, it does use the idea of western hypocrisy as a, you know, as

a legitimizing factor as well. right? so in there can argue that the west cannot impose its alliances and it's partnerships on india. india routines. the choice to decide whether it wants to engage with russia, india, regional security, regional economic imperatives are very different. the west is old, out of, of done is done. it's not going to come back into that part of the was in there needs a strong, stable neighborhood. now, does that strong, unstable neighborhood also sometimes come at the cost of certain democratic principles for me? i think that's a really complicated question that are on those. it is nationalists to will argue that you know, security is more important than their full. this is ok. so i think it really depends on where on that line you stand. let's talk about what you're referring to, the russian invasion of your brain in russia, it's termed as a special military operation. and i think in order to put that in into context,

you know, have to go back to the previous round of confrontation. that is the cold war. we selected the signing of the final house and it affords and 1975 which were based on the promise of sovereign equality. and this principle, the spirit of indivisible security. this period that was later abandoned in favor of the american lad had you on a piece. now, i know for a fact and i think it's impossible to argue that this did not happen. the russians did try to settle their security, that major strategic security differences over ukraine with the well, joe biden advisement, put him mad. they spoke of the phone a couple of times, but there was continued military rising ukraine. so that was a security challenge for russia. whether you like it or not. now, was it russia way of settling it is a good one. i don't think anyone would argue that it was a good one weren't,

weren't never choice. do you think those differences that clearly were pretty big in 2021, 2000. and what did you do think they could have been subtle without war? do you think the west would have ever recognized russia, legitimate concerns or having an anti russian state on its border with if we're talking about developing a nuclear bomb and possibly even do it in? right. so you know, santa hindsight is always 2020. you're asking me if it could have been settled differently, will never know the answer to that question, right? that's a stretching yes or equation strategically. so i think, i think the thing is, in a sense to answer, you know, that the point that you're raising when india took the positions it did in february and march and april at the united nations on the was stage. the kind of comment you saw from the indian foreign minister s j shanker who actually made, you know, it was an off the cuff remark, but it got a lot of traction, which is that, you know, european western europe orders or uses more russian energy ration oil and one

afternoon than india does in a whole month. right. so i think in the us position takes into account the contradictions that you are talking about, right? because it recognizes the fact that there is no way stern way prime minister and arrows, idea of non alignment along with some other countries. was premised on this reality that countries like india were always going to be put in a situation where they would have to make a choice. so how do you insulate younger countries? how do you insulate poor countries from being overly dependent on one side or the other and find a way to deal with both as best as possible. so you can make the argument that today's idea of strategic autonomy that are foreign minister and our prime minister talk about is really an adaptation of non alignment of the sixties and the

seventies and the 80s, right. where, when the cold war was raging, india needed to insulated cells from that you talk about, you know, russian realities, these are the ukraine. these are in reality is, is that the pakistan as well? and as a result of that, i, now these are the china indian does not really have a choice, but to ensure that it's engagement with russia ready. so in that context, i think the idea that you know, the west is trying to push in there to take a very farm stand. i think the west itself has realized that they can't push in there to take that stand. and if you notice conversations and dialogue with western partners and western alliances, allies for india has also changed and you will find india do that balancing. for example, even i think it was just last week or 2 weeks ago, there was a procedural vote at the united nations back that suggested that the ukrainian

premier zalinski addressed the un by a tele conference or video conference. and on that there was pressure on india to vote against it, but in the i said, no, it's ok. let him address by teleconference. that's fine. my let, let us last here for a 2nd because we need to take a short break, but we will definitely put more in details in just a few moments. ah for ah ah, with a

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ah, welcome back to will the 1st with my mention done, he a senior fellow at the observer research foundation in india. my, we've been talking about the security concerns with both of pakistan and china, and we are recording this interview right at the time what they has of many asian nations, including trying, including pakistan in turkey, including russia. i'm gathering in that is found for the summit of the shanghai corporation organization. and it's a pretty big geopolitical outing for many of those leaders. it's that 1st in person

for, for in the visit after they call the 19 on demick. how significant is that in your view? i think it's hugely significant also don't forget that it isn't going to be an induction of iran in this around of the su as well. so no, i mean, the shiny corporation organization has positioned itself as a regional grouping for your asian countries, central asian countries, in india, china, russia. and it's a very interesting grouping because with many of them there are ongoing conflicts. i remember covering one of the 1st meetings of the seo in 2009 when india and pakistan attended that that summit as a special guest of the seo and prime minister and mon saying and present that he met on the sidelines of that summit. and catherine book and you know, there was, there was a scope that could be some, it be used to create

a different kind of dialogue process out of the public clay bilaterally conversation within a much larger framework. so there is no getting away from the fact that this grouping is really important. so i think it also under scores india's strategic autonomy that we were talking about just a little while ago. because just about a week ago or india hosted a summit in a meeting of the quad in delhi and where they talked about trade and fed economy and the, the 4 pillars of the i p f. now is making, it's, you know, you talked about self interest and national interest. i think strategic autonomy is about nathan interest. but here is where the hypocrisy comes in that i talked about earlier. and western democracies, eurasian autocracies, whatever you want to call them, right? every need a warrant to call them asian or talkers, is to be honest with every every nation state,

every sovereign nation state is acting in self interest today. and i think that is what is posing a challenge to a global rules based order. because, you know, the question that india asks very often is who's rules are, is the global order playing by, and the se becomes an option and a forum for a different set of countries of the world. just to say that this is a non western grouping. they're all very strong political leaders in their own right in these countries. and they are energy power, houses, economic power houses. they have large populations, you know, and they're saying that is a different part of the world that say look at a different grouping. and i think that you're comfortable interested them asking in their self interest is a challenge. i wonder if that is a somewhat outdated mentality because you know, when most of them, even if you look at the official goal of the summit, i mean,

it sounds somewhat boring. a very formal. they're talking about economic cooperation and traits continue to, but it is taking place at a time when all production change are being routed and their new opportunities. like for example, for india to stock up on, let's say russian energy. there are many other opportunities for other countries, but i know there is no answers to that, but i wonder, what's your intuition? do you think these are these dr. for synergy? especially at these difficult economic ties. do you think there's a chance that it will overcome the old howard grievances, the old sort of spoiler tendencies on the point of some of them isn't in their mutual interest to pursue their self interest in their mutually beneficial way? yeah, i mean, i would say yes it is, but will there be spoilers? i'm sure they will because you know, in is looking at actually also engaging with iran at this as seo and, and resuming the oil trade. the energy trade with it on it was suspended under the

trump administration under threat of western sanctions on india. the china in their relationship is a hostile one. for both countries will argue that they are acting in the national interest. and yet, there is, you know, an act of military aggression on india's eastern borders by china will the s, he'll be able to put pressure on china as a member state to try and mitigate some of this. now, if that happens, when china turn around, say, say, for example, and i'm, i'm being, you know, i'm speaking hypothetically over, he'll say, for example, russia says china needs to work together with india to resolve a border dispute. is china going to turn around and tell russia, well, you walked into ukraine? why didn't you do what you're telling us to do? as far as i know, the, the tone of conversation and the russians and the chinese is very different. i think that putting a lot of premium on be on the can on their relationship as

a container with which differences all be sure that could be expanded more broadly throughout the region when the countries would understand that it's in that medium. i mean, was to keep that i think point rather than subtle. i think there is some, there is something in that that india certainly hope that russia can do. you know, these are the 3 biggest players in that region, both in terms of the, you know, land mass in terms of economy in terms of strategic imperative. so they are the 3 big players. and i definitely think that the indian foreign policy machinery sort of look said ways to get an engagement that would mitigate the china india tension. somewhat. can russia play a role in that? i know that there are meetings scheduled on the sidelines of the seo summit. i'm not quite sure when they will take place. we probably know more about that as we go

along, but it's also, yeah, it's also interesting to, to sort of look at the timing of everything, right. they'll finish with the seo, the un general assembly is happening around the same time. you know, there's lots of, so things going on in the one that's the only not very fast. and actually, yeah, i know that you've been somewhat skeptical about the dipping cooperation between russia and china, especially as russia distances. and so from there was to put it mildly. but if you actually look at the practicalities of their russian engine partnerships, i think it's by far the most progressive in terms of 2nd circumventing western restrictions because there's already an increased trade in oil. and coal is mentioned, there are some very no mechanisms of circumventing insurance pressure. the 2 countries are also talking about not just talking to have already created the

mechanism in paying and national currency. so in terms of the practicalities of corporation, russian in jeff, i had them, let's say russia and china be honest with you. i'm not mean also the member that you know, when it came to sort of military and defense, for example, the indian government went on out there to ensure that there would be, you know, the requisite waivers would be, would be procured when it came to say the s 400, for example, the gas that we have, it was something that was very, very, very much talked about in the foreign policy sell kit in delhi. it was, it was a thing that, you know, in there had to ensure that it would ensue, needed sell from western pressure, especially on defense and energy. this is a huge would be that it has a special capacity to do that because each camp ones, india to side both the russians as i historically has been pretty minimal and amicable to india. sensibilities and the western can also wants to continue doing

business with india, speaking of which india assumes the presidency of both dish and high corporation organization and g 20. later this year. what do you think it can bring to the table to it at this crucial make or break moment and will history what, what it can bring? and it's an interesting question. so i know that, you know, when, when the conflict 1st adopted in february, there was a lot of conversations around the possibility of prime minister movies rule personally as somebody who knows and has a good working relationship with, let me put in as well as somebody who has an engagement with the west, i mean, you know, the u as in india, call themselves natural allies and natural partners so that there was an expectation and there might still be an expectation that in there can play that bridge. i mean,

you said it very well right now that you know both sides seem to want india to be an active part. no, i think would then be done without the the worst actually wanting to put an end to this one. because i mean, if you, if you look at russia strategic interest, russia is bleeding. it doesn't want to spend resources on fighting in your credit. needs to come to some sort of amicable security arrangement. you know, to make. yeah. that made us troops will be stationed in your brain, and it would be more than happy to put an end to this. you know, brotherly war. i mean, those are families across the board or it's not, it's not a foreign country to us, but they are many people, both here in russia and i 1st manual is different in the west suggesting that the west is interested in prolonging this for us as long as possible 1st to we can russia and 2nd of all to use the opportunity to sorta reset itself to introduce the kind of draconian or stringent policies that would have been unthinkable

a couple of years ago in both in terms of energy saving and in terms of many other social policies. what do you think about that? i mean, you know, i think that's not an analysts say lots of things. i think for the way it's important to for them, for the west to kind of ask themselves what the west perceives as a bigger threat. is it russia, these are the ukraine and what that means for western europe, or is it china and the economic threat that china poses to the entire western order? and i think that's a conversation that's probably taking place in the corridors of london and washington and, and where have you up there is obviously an urgent need for globally, for some sort of an impasse or an end to the conflict between russia and ukraine. and i think that we saw even the u. n. g speak to mr. brewton recently. and,

and that's from a humanitarian perspective. leave alone, the strategic and the economic and the conflict that's from the perspective of, you know, food supply chains or energy supply chain impacting ordinary people like you and me . a, so there is an imperative. now, you know, so dying this up with the a, c o and with g 20 and a country like india, which is sort of wanted as a partner by both sides because of the economic potential that india brings to the table. i think india would probably would, you know, want to leverage that in some capacity. again, coming back to the procedural vote at the united nations last week. you saw that as india saying, you know, on things that are not very significant. it's fine to take certain positions and, and on on does. abstention has proven to be the best way forward for india so far because it sends a message that it's not going to take aside beyond

a point. and no matter what the pressure is, either from the west all from russia, india, dean's that but autonomy to ensure that the decision that's taking all the positions, it's taking away solving their 1st. and i think when it comes to that, there is no ambiguity in both the prime minister mind or the foreign minister of mind that strategic autonomy means that india is responsible player on the was stage, but also and shows that its own interest. i thought my rehab to me to bear, but thank you very much for this amazing conversation. not at all. thank you for having me. and thank you for watching hope to hear again. next week we'll do a

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