ah ah ah hello and welcome to cross stock were all things are considered i'm funeral about while the military conflict in ukraine is far from over, the political fate of this country will be determined at the ballot box of the next few days. regents of ukraine are set to reject cabs, rule enjoying the russian federation. once part of russia, moscow will defend them. will nato escalate its war on russia? ah,

discuss these issues and more and joined by my guess, wendy's and in our slow he's a professor at the university of se or norway as well as the author of the book was the phobia propaganda in international politics. and here in moscow, we have to meet bob. it is a political analyst and editor. you know me, internet media project for a gentleman, cross up rules and the fact that means you can jump any time you want. but i always appreciate it. well, it's start out with glen in our slow, we have as we speak right now being there's a number of referendums being held in ukraine, a very significant tier. of course, it's completely rejected in the west. i don't want to waste our time on that, but they always reject reverend. did they don't like ok, but it's, it's a, we've been following the military operation, but now now the political dimension is coming in to play it, please explain to our viewers, the importance of these boats. go ahead. ah, well, and the importance is so far when russia went into

a, it was a special, it was to find a special military operation and it was supposed to then liberate process the us from the ukraine over the us, the war dr. song, obviously, and the resources put into this, the cost, the increase on russia as well in the states will increase as also by russia recognizing this for territory. fessler guns that goes on and are as a part of russia is huge implications for one. russia will have to devote a lot more troops to defend its own soil. again, i know many people all say critical, especially the west was not really russia. you can. well, if ross has recognized as russia from the russia legal standpoint, is russia. and so you will, there was more troops to defend this territory. there was a course,

a partial mobilization, and also it will defend these territories at all costs. that is, this is considered to be intrinsic part of the russian federation. and as when the worst lot of the russian nuclear doctrine allows for the use of nuclear weapons. in 2 instances, one is attacked by nuclear weapons, but also if the existence of the state is threatened, no one can argue that the 6 excess russia was threatened by merely having made in ukraine. but obviously from having some putting its own territory on the low. this increases the likelihood on or d, m reasoning for using nuclear weapons. food will be used. now, don't get me wrong. i don't think russia would want to go in this direction, but it's obviously, it's obviously a huge well, this is part of the escalation. it's, it's now racing the barks and as you just point out, that the interesting, honest,

how will the west react? because we have to keep in mind after this offensive, which was complicated, but obviously it can be defined as a great success. there's a climate territory where the premium, in the width of the champagne bottles, almost declaring victory in the war and, and suddenly to go from that tale. before the territories become a part of russia and rustic and russia, racing the box, it makes the question, how will the west respond the dilemma? how they respond militarily? ok, obviously, as i recall back on the military, let me go to dina here. now, i'm basically the same question here because it's when they talk about negotiated and the conflict when once these referendums are completed. and i think it's

better to say that they, they will pass. they will make a request to the russian federation to join russia. we're going to assume that's going to happen. so there's a different if there is going to be a negotiated and it's going to be a different ukraine will be negotiated dema. well, i think there are 2 points of you, 2 positions from which you can view of this one is most important for me and that is a purely human view like people leaving, you know, these therapist, these are 8000000 people. what do they feel? what do they fear? you know, i have friends relatives, they're all the same same. we don't want to move if russia sure the secure, never be part of russia. just don't go away. you know, don't let the ukrainian troops. ah, if you allow the bat that you are to blame or something terrible,

then you should not have started it because you make us offer, you know, even do it to them on the same story wasn't changed. i don't have to change now, but i remember that that was exactly the issue that during the 2nd, you know, when these on this for finally. so basically the very politicized . actually i can sum up like this. they don't want be senior great. they want to defeat rush, you know, how the western media come up, they. so q gradient, counter offense. if you saw so many square, wild russian territory regains, you know, they don't speak about 1000, so green and sometimes russian. so just kill, they don't talk about the suffering of the population you,

which was in control. the russians came in, then ukrainian, came back and started arresting culture and people who collaborated with us. so well, it is very poorly decided. they don't feel before that people and from this point of view, i think everything on the side of the west is very, basically asking the question is in boston, but he said, well, i should use all the means necessary. i like the position over the next 5 bill. me basically said this is the responsible you're responsible to check. if someone is blocking the situation, the stakes are too high. you want to try to gain like to try it. try anything. you try that. if you want to try these, maybe not try, so not only your spot for the whole if you make it so that the position of the west,

which is lighted in, i'm sorry, united way again. you know, they sign on to the point where i said this is the 1st time, 1st time since 900 century, when all european brass is you live in covering the so all the media except a few independent was, is on the on site. and that way ration was going to in soccer ball was going to suggest something more. and this is a very dangerous situation, because indeed the situation on the girl don't go to school and i haven't even i'm sure that out with the rush was a lot more resources for rush it to look at the actual garage and balance it while we were invited by the 2000 that when they had rights in a rush and i'm,

it wasn't by and we do go in there even though we're running by that. why? because we don't want a response. it's not about territorial gains, it's about the, the will of the people on the ground. let me switch back to back here. and so this is what is in play here. it's already been said on a himself. this is not a bluff. ok, do you think the west takes that seriously? because i mean you can be more emphatic than saying it right out loud. glenn. well, i think the very important question, because this is, this is so called questioning whether or not to this is a nuclear bluff on behalf of russia. i think the reason behind the questioning is because the west and rush hour from my perspective appeared to escalate. if you say the way the west escalates, it tends to embrace the sim

a salami tactics. it takes very slow, thin slices gradually. and this is how it's escalated. well, russia tends to take this, you know, hold on and take this big leaks if you will. for example, if right, if you want to take it from 2014 after the with, or an coupling. you know, college president which in kid and then we saw in russia took a big step. it took back to korea and also supported don't boss. but then, and we saw nato play this. incremental gradual escalation in which they refused to implement means that they didn't say we. then it said openly that just that they didn't kotia keep to do anything. and also they kind of in their language. they played it down like it is the spirit of it. and at the same time, they were pumping in gradually more and more weapons and says, slowly supporting shutting down obsession media, shutting down the position. political parties arresting that opposition later,

gradually suppressing russian language and culture. you know, we're building up troops in boss, you know, there was a very gradual escalation and then suddenly, with the rush, i get a warning. don't do this. otherwise we will escalate. but setting a small escalation down, you know, you know, russia recognizing on bus and then invading and who say there was, this was doing the same thing gradually. so slowly and more and more heavier and heavier weapons at the beginning. remember the name you want to send fighter planes now and everything is on the table. so this graduate escalation and then of course we would take for granted them, but they've been, you know, they were, the americans took credit for helping sink the most go and worship, you know, killing of russian military leaders offensive the american. so just this was almost directed by them and the british. so now you gradually up to this, nate, the russian war and again, process type, escalate. this no garage, all it does is huge escalation where it is now. partially mobilizes,

300000 troops. troops has referendum in this 4 regions. and so if then nuclear threats are. so i think part of the reason why we don't take the bluff seriously enough in the way, in the buffer. the statement in the way, there's no way we think it might be a bluff is because it seems like a very big step. we've come for expecting the slow incremental escalation. but i think it's some extent we're escalating somewhat, somewhat different and let me, let me get going to the break here. this is all part of the process and it goes back to them both the early part of the conflict where they were seemingly, there was some kind of deal there and it was the west that rejected. this is what we're told here. ok. so, you know, it would be, that gives a recent to continue the escalation, because if, if one site is offered a negotiated, then it's not interested in, you have to ask why you have no other choice being a 32nd break. oh yes,

that's what a cranial sites who are compromise off the east and meeting and there is a fact you know, that you're bringing aside stop. you go teach. and now most is against is saying, we're not interested in further negotiation until we're when a hold that thought we're going to go to a quick break. and after that break will, can you know our discussion on ukraine staying with ah ah, no, i just don't to shape out. disdain becomes the attitude and engagement equals the trail.

when so many find themselves worlds apart, we choose to look for common ground. with welcome back to cross that were all things are considered. i'm digital. well, this is a home addition to remind you. we're discussing some real news. ah, let's go back to jim in moscow, right before we went to the break, you're trying to finish your point. go right ahead, my friend. well, basically this is the program. who wants the bubble sheets want me to rush once

she, because this is a suffering, you know, we don't want to bring in some guy until recently will never made a difference. and i think was better sincere with the said that was the same people . so it was the cranial side that it was the last that then you're all international, your strong international dial, banished down that united nations gets out. so russia, credit choice wouldn't kind of choice to make a rule space order in general, you know, international or security of the people and people leave it. and because more speed, so exhausted because the international law is not for us, it's for someone else. a can insure security. there's

a very well the fact that is all why people are in fact that, i mean, and we'll get that police report stronger. great. at least $25.00, which is where a session on the dentist controlled by iraq. since every $24.00 they were being a site does not comment. maybe it was all just little cream. no problems. no was these were assassination teams. right. and people die. car attacks. people are sure, you know, the prosecutor general region that will kind of the actual condition. now you're be inside delivery targeting. they go to where people go to that they switch around. so i don't know if the state that it can will maintain it is claim of legitimacy there's,

it's killing its own citizens. ok, this is funny guy handling them. another reason to vote to leave. exactly. i mean, this is all, i mean, it was the same story as with best latino, until these school children were taken by people who claim that we are going to support it. you can talk about it, but they did such a huge crime that a door about a session, or at least for more or less, more people at their home when children, but taking this course in the same way. now, if you don't like the sure for adults, so if you can see why i didn't know people go, why i want you. hi, mark. precisely. you know, the places where people walk where people go all over with you know,

in house, on timers. you start shift that administration personal precisely a. so i mean was this kind of a good, you're hoping we talk about international law. what kind of rules is this would be based on. so basically when you get an app to show one of the west sounds, all right, she's needing. yes. because you way the legal framework announced you shout in a claim. you know, i've, i've kind of had a sea change over the last few weeks and thinking about the timing or the duration of this conflict. because i think everyone on the russian side, at least, are wanted to see this wrapped up as soon as possible, saving lives, obviously. but i'm considering russia is facing the entire industrialized west. them, i call it nato worlds. ok. so this is,

the russia is at war with nato in ukraine. i'm. but in the, the question of timing is really important because the longer the conflict goes on, the suffering of course continues. but the unraveling of the so called unity and solidarity of, of the west is becoming more and more apparent because it's time passes, the real pain, not the sanctions against russia, but the sanction ers are the ones that are feeling the pain as it gets cooler and cooler with every passing day here. thoughts one? well, this is sir. all this is why we have this escalations to begin with because we are in a position are almost a little more about the exhausting completely the other side and, and, and especially claiming full mixture. that's why there's also no room for diplomacy . and that's why this conflict, so frightening now. well, you know, one could say that no one can ever see how this is escalated over this over the

past 6 months, because when the war began, keep in mind that russia interest on up to, to you in the capital and with a lot of pressure on on so landscape to accept or what they couldn't get before the 24th february, which was a settlement of final settlement on this, on this conflict. and, and the democratic, the point out this year, a lot of reports from both ukraine and america, that the, this is when boys johnson came to came and said, listen, don't, don't make any deals with the russians. we can instead exhaust them. we can believe in dr. effectively with less, less of deal with them. and this is also something that most also said later on like it. and we, we should avoid any bad piece with russia. we should take the piece, which means we have to defeat the russian us, which is all that you the americans, to some extent, said that they have to be defeated on, on the battlefield, them. and this is the problem. now. you enter more on the exhausting their opponent and this is why are they this is why it also implies

a lot of escalation. because before the keep in mind, rush had avoided a lot of civilian infrastructure and it didn't even that tackle of the barracks were new that ukraine and soldiers work. it's main message was, you know, we're not in conflict with you in conflict with government so. so gradually this continuous increase made a question more and more weapons, russia escalades on this side, and you have this mutual escalation going on. and because if the goal is to exhaust the enemy and there's no the austin, i mean there's no diplomacy anymore on the table, then if it's only full victory, or if this is when this is when you have this mutual escalation. so i think about the timing that this is probably something that the kremlin is that is calculating because if you look at a weapon, storage is across nato. i mean, they say that across eastern europe there. so with weapons calling the germans say we have anything on that or of course, in america, not only does the storage work,

the stores have been to play them, but they're taking weapons on active service to ship to ukraine. and i haven't been able to see it or to verify but, but, but undoubtedly their weapons having exhausted and also european economies. i mean, things are going great in europe now. it's difficult to heat the homes, industries, cons, obviously survive a lot of the energy intensive industries counselor. so and then again, denise rush, exhausting us. and then of course we're trying to close the russians to buy a horse johnson. so just to we have to believe the russians drive slowly. this is also something around corporation by the way, as under catered for many years, that even the excess excited, the escalating the conflict in the bus. they had a long oral this in 2019. this could helped to get russian more involved in the region, believe more russians in terms of blog and research. and this is a way of destroying russia so, so, so we are, to some extent of it all in an existential conflict. i mean, that's the word exist,

so yes, it's a crazy escalation on both sides and no diplomacy. and this is why it's very frightening situation. i went demon went to go back to the referendums. um, i think it's very important to point out to our viewers that this will have a demonstration effect. we have 4 regions that are voting on leaving ukraine and obviously joining russia. and then we have the military campaign. we can add like odessa, coff eventually. because once this process of leaving ukraine joining russia will set is a precedent for other regions of ukraine and b. obviously, ultimately, i'm most important that the russians are there to protect the people that they recognize as being part of the country. what kind of demonstration effect will it have? well let me 1st explain something with you as your green was a democracy until all of which and when you bring one of these regions credit

basically a hard copy is not what you don't. jumper raja capsule. the all was voted for the pro ration candidate the vote for which my against to the phone with that for each or that the more that bush against to go there will was the progression. so basically we can, these people had no choice, they would not elect new people into government, they were doing that. and the last one, which was very switch the id with these are, you know, lead out russia. it reminds me over the german and french strategy during the 1st

one, which was invent them, you know, the germans, while the bluetooth to bleed out the frame shot. the result was that they bled out themselves to each other. and 1st of all, what became the tragedy that we know? so in the same way, i mean the pattern with the last now there was a small, the west give, you know, okey in syria. there were a few children pena, something by the star. so, know, movie and, you know, making it a huge program, you know, basically inviting fighters from the same procedure yet. and then it became a huge civil will continue to reason. in the same way. if russia said it's way election in 2000 and maybe in the beginning of 15 the course, you will get all you would get a legal needs and everything will be fine. but the one

that they wanted to change in the same way. now, i mean, i love watching a voice issue. why they're right. good. it is under pressure. would. it doesn't matter for them. you know that people are dying that ukraine is suffering. what man is that? what is on the question? and what is to be there right on their side, on the pressure, not only from the anti or do you, but also from the nation's company to be an instructional authoritarian that there are people, you know, who put the president on depression. there is a, a story system. we haven't why i can explain to you because rush not being authoritarian states since

1987 a we have to end on this point here. fascinating discussion. i think my guess and are slow and in mosque. i want to thank you for watching us here. are the see you next? i'm remember across a ah much day before the morning. i'm going to read a bunch of them on live today and i don't. yeah. so, but there isn't any. was a series on the horse and don't get them in a residential and i'm, i'm just needing someone to do it, but i'm about to leave them. i guess that i'm really kind of is a natural national says, unless you machine a my will come on. you to be aware e,

british all of the roof to jail and wishing you a bottle of c j. a deal on that because i was like, it was in the to me. okay. yes, special c emotional need an additional team that were like one mission jamal up on your mind that i'm, that was my dog. was model with machine this a complex from mac mall, but just put a she'll do to show on my list of my own go to die, get it with the she just has a surface. doesn't exist on this a balance of nitro, that when you get it all and good as well as a sequence. you from august telling me about that. we did lose this and i'm not sure that but on it and it'll be complex and wellness is a good deal. and if not, i'm just a new pastor though. i must be in the to school. it was a boy. i mean, we have to look at a bigger of a chest dish. no,

but i mean, you going yeah, well, but the most dental washington that i can have with putting it in there and what, what are those are the virginia before the heats your whole video? they're going to look over. oh, boy, really on one going his way way more. surely. he though i wish to write but a give me a little walk over to was position where i'd like sit in motion, a pass now to stay below. right, there is actually one of those are the principal belonging as a that you yeah, pretty folks. i mean you can go priscilla. it was a shoot me a stuff. just want to refer for see where. mm. ebersole or a bill that i saw was theresa. i showed him in the toyota, but after those up mills, i said she had the same it about them. i was

a custodians of. mm mm hm. with a for the voting in the don bus is upper or any kind of some regions just i was away in our special coverage international observers share their assessments of the referendum during russia. okay. honestly, i expected to see a different situation and the people panicking being scared to vote, but i see voters calmly coming to express their will. it's clear to me that people have been waiting for this for a long time. as residents say to polling centers in here to song the region comes them to shannon by.