as nato's war on russia continues, how things will escalate is anybody's guess. ah, cross sucking the referendums in ukraine. i'm joined by my guess, pepe escobar in bangkok. he's an independent geopolitical analyst and author specializing in eurasia in st. petersburg. we have gilbert doctorow. he is an independent political analyst and author of memoirs of an ex pat manager in moscow during the $990.00 s. and here in moscow we have white read. he is a journalist with suit nicknames. i gentleman cross roles that affect, that means you can jump anytime you want, and i always appreciate gilbert. let me go to you 1st and st. petersburg. the votes are almost al, counted up. the results will be in very soon what. what is the significance of these referendums because, versus how the geography, the political geography of ukraine is going to change dramatically as, as military conflict goes on. what are the implications, go ahead. a box and the

need reintegration over into the russian federation is important because ours, it extends judy, a rush to deploy air, military forces and search or otherwise we'll be open from sears and we're not with it is years in the us on the phone on days which will be in the for almost a nurse, a just miss. so there's a legal legal hours are there for us or is it is fullness renter or it is the seeing the political mesh near us? and that is one of my children teaching pepe bad. centrally the same thing because

obviously these are not going to be recognized by the west. however, this is where the danger lies because russia will claim that once they're inducted into the russian federation, they are russian sovereignty. and as this conflict goes on to nato and washington and defacto will probably test this and we have heard from, from the russian side, don't do that because there will be very strong reactions here. so we are animal and inflection point a very dangerous one at that peppy. yes, it's a very dangerous inflection point, but there are 2 very important things happening at the moment. one that we more or less got a confirmation of this, so they, they are now there are back channels between the americans and the russians. they are not talking directly, but at least we have back channels. this proves that the, by the ministrations absolutely terrified. they are cornered,

they have no idea what they're going to do next, 1st of all because they don't have any strategic thinking. pretty bad and sullivan and blink and dumb and dumber doing strategic thinking. now if this doesn't, doesn't matter, right? and the pre planning, the whole car called episode was basically a pre planning for the russia army to protect the for b, b barriers during the referendums this week. and so what happens, the new chronology is they tried everything to disrupt it. no, it didn't work. so you know, the people who are voting and more people are holding already than in crimea. and buster probably still has the record, but everybody else. it's 8589 percent. so it's a major success. what happens max, which is something that we could discuss 4 hours, is that any attack by pierre is going to be an attack against the russian federation in we all know what that means. why it here in moscow,

what i've been thinking a lot about would be looking at these referendums is that they serve as a demonstration effect because, you know, all of us said that, you know, even a little bit of ukrainian history. no. the point, you know, that is always been a, the most fragile of states. ok. i cobbled together in the 20th century. and now we have these referendums. there are other places like odessa, for example, that we watching very, very carefully. now obviously the camp regime has military assets there, so people going to have to be very careful. but when they look at don bouts will say they did it, crimea did it, we can do it. and this is the most important precedent that's being said. but it is not without its danger. go ahead. why? absolutely. and the officials that i spoke with at least one official i spoke with the day when i went to the embassy of the dentist people's republic here in moscow, they predicted that this will certainly be a serious inflection point. that it means that in the short immediate term,

i still, these are likely to escalate i the visual i spoke with also predicted that it was possible that the the success of the referendums. i think we can now say pretty confidently that they were successful. that will initiate a or lead to an escalation in terms of the russian governments classification from a special military operation up to a anti terrorist operation. which observers will notice is the rationale behind rishon operations in syria. so certainly, you know, he also predicted that it's possible that russia may seek to label ukraine officially as a pair of states or a sponsor of terror. so certainly there are significant implications from these referendums and we're already starting to see them play out. maybe i'm really glad

that wyatt brought that up because we're going to go from a special military operation to a very different type of operation. and to say in, you know, in everyday parlance, if the sovereignty of these newly new regions of russia violated, i'll say it quite bluntly the, the gloves will come off. i think we all remember was about 10 days ago when for some unexpected reason, the lights went out through most of ukraine. it wasn't for very long. it was if somebody was tapping the brakes here, reminding everyone the brakes can be more than tapped. go ahead, pepe. well, this has the summer. we have to go back to summer. can peter and all of you in the audience? this was discussed face to face very, very serious conversation. we had some echoes from chinese echols about, this was an extremely serious conversation between pooty and she, she asked very strong questions and cruelty gave very detailed answers. but the

chinese message was essentially, you have to try to wrap this up as soon as possible. so that leads us to the referendums that leads us to the transformation of the s m. o into a city p o, a counter terrorist operation, which is the preferred law does open run the up the russian army from chechnya to syria and now to ukraine. so, velvet gloves and all the y date, the are totally off as of this week. and that's why starting next week we have a completely different ball game. the russians in intelligence security matters. they seem to have this under control finally and the internal front, around tutoring would, i would say what a 5 percent minority may be, is solidified, and people understand why this has to go one, at least one level up in the paying dial. we'll just wait for next week

gilbert, but again, which we have to throw in this partial novelization of bringing up 300000 reservists. i mean that that's going to take time to deploy. if they're going to be deployed at all, it's going to take months. ok, i mean, they've already had basic training. they have, you know, they, they have their job descriptions here. but i mean, i'm reflecting upon what you said about timing. i've asked over the last couple of weeks every single guests have had on the program, you know, who's got the clocks and who's has the time. and then there's a general consensus, gilbert that russia has the clocks and the time go ahead and st. petersburg. i think it hasn't really i think it's reasonable, but after the service and the reporters continue, jackson. course the new from to i think it is reasonable to expect that the

racial war and that is no longer award that it will be and i believe that it's within mr. paul to end this war didn't matter. we use if he follows what people along which is the the civilian military administration's interior bio precision strengths that's entirely within the military. no. so what is the meaning of the partial boot? the come back to the same point renders these there's a matter of domestic russian actions. i believe that we will see this financial status, but

a master's and the last 3 months of training. the logic to me is that they will be forced to hold down the territories. ukraine after is the cap is okay. why and here in, in moscow there, there is, there is a, there is a sense of in patient. so you live here, i live here wanting to see this thing wound up and i think the post referendums is this opportunity kind of echoing a little bit with what gilbert had to say. your thoughts go ahead. absolutely was extremely popular. the referenda voters that i've spoken to, ah, overwhelmingly, you know everyone, everyone that i've talked to his voted. i've spoken to several people peers in their eyes. i. it's a situation of overwhelming emotion. people express to me basically they are feelings of relief. after 8 long years, i'm at what, why, why, if i get

a job in here, i was a say that i was going to say that exactly. you know, we ever either in, for the world at february 24th. but for these people, it's been the law 8 long years of suffering and carnage. and it's about time it came to an end. and that perspective is not understood whatsoever in the west. you read articles about what's going on ukraine. most of those even mentioned the mince process, it's so out of context here. so i, i am very happy after having and what my program cover this for 8 years that they're going to get some kind of closure or general. i'm going to jump in here. we're going to go to a short break, and after that short break, we'll continue our discussion on the referendums in ukraine. stay with our i move when i was sure seemed wrong when i just don't want you to shape out the theme because the applicant

and engagement equals the trail. when so many find themselves worlds apart, we choose to look for common ground. oh, was recently munoz curtis, imagine if you speak russian, keep your voice down while out and about a couple don't put your human symbols on display a guy so you guys don't talk to strangers. i avoid noisy gatherings with

your colleagues and perhaps also your friends. think you're guilty because you'll russian a minute, a social with a with ah, welcome back across sack where all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle to remind you we're discussing the referendums in ukraine.

ah. okay, go back to pepe in bangkok or maybe you know very well i read the american conservative asia times online antiwar dot com. you know what i read and i, i'm kind of bewildered by a lot of these libertarian guys that they're good. people don't get me wrong, but you know, you know, negotiated end to the conflict here. well, i don't and negotiating the new republics of the russian federation. russia is not going to negotiate that. okay. and why would russian negotiate with people that were involved with the mens process they they well they didn't keep their word. there's no, there's no negotiations that can go on that with the zalinski regime of course not . and that's why kind of echoing a little bit about what a gilbert had to say in my mind, it's going to be regime change one way or another at the because at the end of the day and i want my audience to understand is very,

very well russia isn't doing this now, so it has to do it again in 5 years or 10 years, or 15 years. that public opinion is not going to be forward. go in and do the job. as you said, you would pepe yes because as much as the game may be changing this week with the albert gloves off. it's still jimmy size ation company, which is proceeding a face and a long term g. now, if you cation company for that, you're going to need to copy, paste the current pro nazi nail miles, the crypt on eyes the regime in. yeah, that's a given, this is something that's from the beginning. i would say the crumbling was reluctant to speed up and now there's no reason to, to keep stalling. everybody knows it and internal public opinion supports it. in terms of negotiations, that's still nobody. so they go. sheets with europeans are vassals, you won't negotiate with european commission. you want to go shape with the berlin,

paris, and out wrong. very interesting where we have ga maloney which sash isn't the russian but deep now she's not. so that's another different equation in europe. and in the us, we have a matter of what a month and a half. we have the dams being expelled from capitol hill, essentially. so they're going to have to negotiate with republicans in congress. that's another story. completely different story and their margin. so to maneuver of course, we'll see they're going to have a link duck teleprompter reader present. so in these next one months to 2 months, the whole game is going to change. in fact, including the possibility of the step back track that we'll see that these, these back channels that are now back in the case in business day, could find some accommodating way. we all know there's not,

there's not going to be any a couple days because yeah, the russians have explicitly said this is a do or die affair. it's the new world order at stake in gilbert i. when i was up in saint petersburg during the internation, we can make for him this year i came across people from the global south, a certain diplomat. and he said, you know, peter, how is, how can we find a win win situation? i said there is no such thing as a win win situation. once i get a win and one side is going to lose, and nato is going to lose, the european union is going to lose gilbert, your thoughts? you're going to ross. i think it was like to me to latest roles in the to the you this to resign resignation. was not a personal career. it was against

point turning point in versus relations near you. there's a way by moving around it from rose very the way we're not accepting the credentials of the new you about your mouth. i think the you in the and the whole thing is going over this. you're directly industry got. i think that the nuclear re, re and was cold in washington and the surviving are around the is very important dimension. because what,

what is an issue is not russell using you know, they will be the most attention crane a mr. region is trying to prove that it is all new ish missile systems, laundry. whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. i believe goals in progress . you're so a sure, i think the final countdown to soon get worse when the, the interesting why it, it's, what was going to be very interesting. here is a whole thanks and regime against russia because there's

a whole lot of pride at stake here. ok, as your people pay higher food prices and you're getting cold in the winter, pride gets in the way hubris gets in the way. personally, i don't see the russians doing anybody any favors whatsoever. ok, again, who's got the clocks and who's got the time. the european union has neither wyatt go ahead. absolutely, and i'd like to call your attention to what the german government is. so has said it suspects is sabotaged to now adstream pipelines. the denmark's prime minister has also said that it's hard to imagine. these are coincidences we know in february, u. s. president joe biden threatened that if russia invades, quote unquote, then there will no longer be ignored stream to we will bring an end to it. and a reporter asked him, but how will you do that exactly? since the project is under jeremy's control by and said, i promise you,

we will be able to do that. so i think what we're looking at is the force de industrialization of the entirety of europe. langley, you know, the united states certainly understands that if sanctions won't stop russia, then they will simply force the, this economic aggression against russia by stopping europe by korean, europe's economy. but boy, boy, but why it, it's, it is in russia, it's d, industrialize in europe. it's think americans doing an amazing thing about it, a pepe. want to jump in on that because i think it's a very germane point. go ahead. absolutely, look, i was in your, i came from paris a week ago where our discussion is apps. it's beyond off limits, you can not have a civilized discussion like this, the paris in berlin, and now now maybe in rome and milan with georgia, milan, basically what's happening is, i was very well concerted. american push not only against russia,

but specially against the you and germany, especially against germ germany, industrialization of germany, means the industrialization of the new in the you going back to a boss through the equivalent of the middle ages. this is what's happening in the america spectacle is so far have been okay. but happy pepe. i don't want to be a history nerd here or anything like that. but there was a plan for the d. industrialization of germany was called the morgenthau plan, and that was being revised by during over hold. what i didn't big it would take to build 2022 for the mortgage about plan to be put into play peppy. and the most extraordinary thing is that intellectuals from frankfurt, so, but i haven't seen any other that's been great here. you know, you don't have a discussion in the for instance, that germany has very good newspapers. still frank full of algamite. the of you

don't see a discussion like that discussion of substance and discussion of the role of being a vassals and discard, doable expendable vessels that is being played by germany. and of course in terms of the you, this discussion in brussels just beyond the often because that the 5th and the 6th column this inside brussels, there are lie, you know, merican agenda. skilled or how what, what does ukraine survive? this what will be what, what we call that ukraine after all is said and done in your mind. gilbert. i think the see the girl will be under control trans this year for way to to see it. so loss are asked 80 percent and since he is in.

ringback service it will be a minor state territory. so it's really going to be integrated in country really west, but i wouldn't worry so much about creating the political services and the whole situation last year since my colleague and she really just especially for my or the day when she got her, they use electricity, labor the family years to 500 years. keeping in mind that the average weight is around because it's just 16 years

and all it is, once you're not going to abreast of larger, now we're going to the gas or oil bill to house or the point is under the law is going to sar your political activity and you're here about warning brain and they do on the walls. well, this is, it's very interesting. this is going to play out because i think we all agree here that these referendums are an inflection point here. but we shouldn't be complacent here. the empire, i hate to be humiliated and it's being humiliated as we speak right now. so a lot more to come here. that's all the time we have gentlemen. many thanks them i guess in bangkok saint petersburg and here in moscow. and thanks to where view were for watching us here at our tc and next time. remember cross talk

with ah, ah, took a photo talk to let use for the school as well. but i see the part doesn't work with you. the bus like a week with a lot because i love us. we are with

ford edge that are still to the situation like i does she somebody over there boss that we should be? but jim, i'm with us. the, i'm talk video with you. look on you up for you was up, but use was look, it is if i can use with the and i do so as you know that way, if you don't mind ah needs to come to the russian state. little narrative. i've stayed as i'm phone and the most lansky in the div, asking him the knocking calls or something for a coup in the 55 when. okay,

so mine is 2000 speedy. one else was about with we will ban in the european union the kremlin. yup. machines, the state aunt, rush up to date and school r t spoke mckibbin, our video agency, roughly all band on youtube with requests with oh, when i was showing wrong one. 03. just don't hold any new world yet to say proud disdain becomes the advocate. an engagement equals the trail. when so many find themselves worlds apart,

we choose to look so common ground. today i'm authorizing the additional strong sanctions. foreign companies quitting russia. a licensing atm card, blantan bangs, disconnected from the international payment system. functional move hoppey, jermel donna and euro exchange rates follow up when i check up on a couple more of those. so we don't know what the committee met. that evoke missed the pillar, invest that is the correct. can you say, i don't know what you're seeing. material was volume and russian business overcome this song. c. yeah, i bought it to the nazi to huddle. she's tremendously just me. don't pros, voice, bullshit, national, productive notches, steel, a miracle, what i see or put themselves. but when you come, when you with the border, you go then yeah, i mean, why would you treat them out? but i, she's a cause there's the group when you,

when you use been with dr. new person who is a school. so a delusion. look, a little book, you know, the motion with ah, yes, on joining russia, that's how the referendum been done by us. and 2 other regions ended with the locals. both thing to secede from ukraine. we hear from people on the ground on how they feel about with no one forces us to come. you can feed yourself people coming voluntarily. i'm so happy i'm about to cry. i'm really happy. we've come a long way and i've been waiting for it for ages as western countries label the referendum to shana, and refused to recognize the result. rushes ambassadors to you and accuses them double found that.