ah, ah hello and welcome to cross out. were all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle. at this point, it is almost a near certainty, the regions of ukraine voting to reject kids rule will join the russian federation . and soon, moscow will protect these people. as nato's war on russia continues. how things will escalate? is anybody's guess. ah, crow, sucking the referendums in ukraine. i'm joined by my guess, pepe escobar in bangkok. he's an independent geopolitical analyst and author specializing in eurasia in st. petersburg, we have gilbert doctorow. he is an independent political analyst and author of mom was of an expert pat manager in moscow during the 1990 s. and here in moscow we

have white read. he is a journalist with spook nicknames. i tell him across accruals of the fact that means you can jump any time you want, and i always appreciate gilbert. let me go to you 1st and st. petersburg. the votes are almost al, counted of the results will be in very soon what. what is the significance of these referendums because, versus how the geography, the political geography of ukraine is going to change dramatically as his military conflict goes on. what are the implications? go ahead. implications resting oaks reynolds and the need reintegration over here into the russian federation is important because ours, that excess judy a rush to deploy air, military forces or otherwise would be, you know, frontiers of russia and we're not with it is years in the us

on the phone on days, which will be in the office of the for almost a rush, a nose just miss. so there's a legal hour ish where there for us or is it is all mr. or it is the see the political mesh rush. and that's one of my children, he pepe bad, centrally the same thing because obviously these are not going to be recognized by the west. however, this is where the danger lies. because russia will claim that once they're inducted into the russian federation, they are russian sovereignty. and as this conflict goes on to nato and washington about defacto will probably test this and we have heard from, from the russian side, don't do that because there will be very strong reactions here. so we are animal

and inflection point a very dangerous one at that peppy. yes, it's a very dangerous inflection point, but there are 2 very important things happening at the moment. one that we, we more or less got confirmation of this. so they, they are now there are back channels between the americans and the russians. they are not talking directly, but at least we have back channels. this proves that the, by the ministrations absolutely terrified. they are cornered, they have no idea what they're going to do next. first of all because they don't have any strategic thinking, pretty batch and sullivan and blink and dumb and dumber. doing strategic thinking. now if this doesn't, doesn't happen right? and the pre planning, the whole car called episode was basically a pre planning for the russian army to protect the for b barriers during the referendums this week. and so what happened the, to you for analyses they tried to able to sing to disrupt it?

no, it didn't work. so you know, the people who are voting and more people are voting already than in crimea. and as a bus supposed to have the record, but everybody else. it's 8589 percent. so it's a major success. what happens maxed, which is something that we could discuss 4 hours. is that to any attack by key ab is going to be an attack against the russian federation in we all know what that means and why it here in moscow, when i've been thinking a lot about with looking at these referendums, is that they serve as a demonstration effect because, you know, all of us that it know even a little bit of ukrainian history. no. the place you know, that is always been the most fragile of states. okay. i cobbled together in the 20th century. and now we have these referendums. there are other places like odessa, for example, that we watching very, very carefully. now obviously the kid regime has military assets there. so people

going to have to be very careful. but when they look at little dan basil say they did it. crimea did it. we can do it, and this is the most important precedence. it's being said, but it, it is not without its danger. go head, why it? absolutely. and the officials that i spoke with at least one official i spoke with today when i went to the embassy of the dentist people's republic here in moscow, they predicted that this will certainly be a serious inflection point. that it means that in the short immediate term activities are likely to escalate the official i spoke with also predicted that it was possible that the the success of the referendums. i think we can now now say pretty confidently that they were successful. that will initiate a or lead to an escalation in terms of the russian governments classification from

a special military operation up to a anti terrorist operation, which i had servers will notice is the rationale behind russian operations in syria. so certainly i, you know, he also predicted that it's possible that russia may seek to label ukraine officially as a pair of states or a sponsor of tear. so certainly there are significant implications from these referendums, and we're already starting to see them play out. maybe i'm really glad that wyatt brought that up because we're going to go from the special military operation to a very different type of operation and to say in, you know, in everyday parlance. if the sovereignty of these newly new regions of rush are violated, i'll say it quite bluntly, the, the gloves will come off. i think we all remember was about 10 days ago when for some unexpected reason, the lights went out through most of ukraine. it wasn't for very long. it was if somebody was tapping the brakes here,

reminding everyone the brakes can be more than tapped. go ahead, pepe. well, this has so much we have to go back to summer. can peter and all of you in the audience? this was discussed, face to face very, very serious conversation. we had some echoes from chinese echols about, this was an extremely serious conversation between pooty and she, she asked very strong questions and could you gave very detailed answers. but the chinese message was essentially, you have to try to wrap this up as soon as possible. so that leads us to the referendums that leads us to the transformation of the s m. o into a city or a counter terrorist operation, which is the preferred law does open run the up the russian army from chechnya to syria and now to ukraine. so, velvet gloves and all the wise date, they are totally off as off this week. and that's why starting next week, we have

a completely different ball game. the russians in intelligence security matters. they seem to have this under control finally and the internal front, around tutoring would, i would say what a 5 percent minority may be, is solidified, and people understand why this has to go one, at least one level up in the pain dial. we'll just wait for next week gilbert, but again, which we have to throw in this partial novelization of bringing up 300000 reservists. i mean that that's going to take time to deploy. if they're going to be deployed at all, it's going to take months. ok, i mean, they've already had basic training. they have, you know, they, they have their job descriptions here. but i mean, i'm reflecting upon what you said about timing. i've asked over the last couple of weeks every single guests have had on the program, you know,

who's got the clocks and who's has the time. and then there's a general consensus, gilbert that russia has the clocks and the time go ahead and st. petersburg. i think it hasn't really i think it's reasonable extent, but after the service and the reporters continue, jackson across the new from team. i think it is reasonable to expect that the racial war and that is no longer award that it will be and i believe it's within mr. paul to end this war in matter. we said not the people want people along which is to be capitan, the, the civilian military administration's tier bio precision

strokes. that's entirely within the military. no. so what is the meaning of the parcel was ish, the come back to the same point renders these there's a matter of domestic rush and i believe that we will see this as a status but a master's there. the last 3 months of training, the logic to me, they will be forced to hold down the territories. ukraine after is the cap is okay. why it here? and in moscow there, there is, there is a, there is a sense of in patient. so you live here, i live here wanting to see this thing wound up and i think the post referendums is

this opportunity kind of echoing a little bit with what gilbert had to say. your thoughts go ahead. absolutely was extremely popular. the referendum, the voters that i've spoken to, ah, overwhelmingly, you know everyone, everyone that i've talked to is voted. i've spoken to several people, tears in their eyes. i. it's a situation of overwhelming emotion. people express to me basically they are feelings of relief. after 8 long years, i'm at what, why, why if i get his job in here, i was a say that i was going to say that exactly. you know, we every, either in, for the world at february 24th. but for these people, it's been the law 8 long years of suffering and carnage. and it's about time it came to an end. and that perspective is not understood whatsoever in the west. you read articles about what's going on ukraine. most of those even mentioned the mince process, it's so out of context here. so i,

i am very happy after having what my program cover this for 8 years that they're going to get some kind of closure or general. i'm going to jump in here. we're going to go to a short break, and after that short break, we'll continue our discussion on the referendums in ukraine. stay with our aah! in each hunter, russian state to never see as tight as on the nose landscape. diva mission house on meek, within the 50000 defeat of keys on ends. 2000 stevie. when else about this, even though we will van in the european union, the kremlin jump machine, the state aunt rush up to date and switch r t spoof neck. even our video agency, roughly all band to on youtube interesting

with, ah, mm hm. only one main thing is important for not as an internationally speaking to that is that nations allowed to do anything, all the mazda races, and then you have the mind, the nations who are the slaves. americans, brock, obama and others have had a concept of american exceptionalism. international law exist as long as it serves american interest. if it doesn't, it doesn't exist by turning those russians into this dangerous go. you man, that wants to take over the world. that was a conscious strategy. so some of it on your own,

i not leashed off tim zebulon and tablet block. nato said it's ours. we moved east and the reason us, hey jim, it is so dangerous, is it? the law is the sovereignty of all the countries. the exceptionalism that america uses and its international war planning is one of the greatest threats to the populations of different nations. if nature, what is bad shareholders in united states and elsewhere in large obs companies would lose millions and millions? or is business and business is good and that is the reality of what we're facing, which is fashion. and look forward to talking to you all that technology should work for people. a robot must obey the orders given by human beings, except where such order does that conflict with the 1st law show your

identification. we should be very careful about personal intelligence. at that point obviously is too great truck rather than say and with artificial intelligence, real summoning views for robustness, protect his own existence with awe . welcome back. across sack, where all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle, tremonti. we're discussing the referendums in ukraine. ah, okay, go back to pepe in bangkok, a baby you know very well. i read the american conservative asia times online anti war dot com. you know what i read and i, i'm kind of bewildered by

a lot of these libertarian guys, and they're good people don't get me wrong. but, you know, you know, negotiated end to the conflict here. well, i don't negotiating the new republics of the russian federation. russia is not going to negotiate that. okay, and why would russian negotiate with people that were involved with the mince process? they, they, well, they didn't keep their word. there's no, there's no negotiations that can go on that with the uminski regime. of course not . and that's why kind of echoing a little bit about what a gilbert had to say. in my mind, it's going to be regime change one way or another at the because at the end of the day, and i want my audience to understand this very, very well russia isn't doing this now. so it has to do it again in 5 years or 10 years, or 15 years. there's public opinion is not going to be forward. go in and do the job. as you said, you would pepe yes, because as much as the game may be changing this week with the velvet gloves off.

it's still demilitarize ation campaign, which is proceeding a face and a long term g. that's if you cation campaign for that you're going to need to copy, paste the current pro nazi nail miles, decrypt on eyes the regime. and that's a given, this is something that's from the beginning. i would say that crumbling was reluctant to speed up. and now there's no reason to, to keep stalling. everybody knows it and internal public opinion supports it. in terms of the go see issues. that's still nobody. so they go. sheets with europeans are vassals, you won't negotiate with european commission. you want to go. she ate with the girl in paris and our role very interesting, where we have ga maloney which sash isn't the russian but deep now she's not. so that's another different equation in europe. and in the us, we have a matter of what a month and

a half. we have the dams being expelled from capitol hill, essentially. so they're going to have to negotiate with republicans in congress. that's another story. completely different story and their margin over maneuver. of course, we'll see they're going to have a link duck teleprompter reader present. so in these next one months to 2 months, the whole game is going to change. in fact, including the possibility of the step back track that we'll see ations that these, these back channels that are now back in the case in business day, could find some accommodating way. we all know there's not, there's not going to be any a couple days because yeah, the russians have explicitly said this is a do or die affair. it's the new world. other stake in gilbert i. when i was up in saint petersburg during the internation, we can make for him this year. i came across people from the global south,

a certain diplomat. and he said, you know peter, how is, how can we find a win win situation? i said there is no such thing as a win win situation. once i'm going to win and one side is going to lose, and nato is going to lose. the european union is going to lose gilbert, your thoughts? you're going to ross. i think it was like to me to latest roles you're the to the you, mr. to resign was not a personal career. it was against point turning point in versus relations near you. there's a way around it from rose very the way we're not accepting the credentials

of you about your mouth. i think he you early in the and the whole thing is going over this. you're directly washington industry got. i think that the nuclear re sector and was cold in washington and the surviving russians are around the is very important dimension. because what, what is an issue is not russell, using they will be the most attention crane a mr region is trying to prove that it

is all new cutting ish missile systems. roche r a, a, a us in the year. so a, i think the final count down to soon get worse when the, the interesting why it is what was going to be very interesting. here is a whole thanks and regime against russia because there's a whole lot of pride at stake here. ok, as your people pay higher food prices and you're getting cold in the winter, pride gets in the way hubris gets in the way. personally, i don't see the russians doing anybody any favors whatsoever. ok, again,

who's got the clocks and who's got the time. the european union has neither wyatt go ahead. absolutely, and i'd like to call you as attentions to what the german government is. so has said it suspects is sabotaged to now extreme pipelines. the denmark's prime minister has also said that it's hard to imagine. these are coincidences we know in february, u. s. president joe biden threatened that if russia invades, quote unquote, then there will no longer be ignored stream to we will bring an end to it. and a reporter asked him, but how will you do that exactly? since the project is under jeremy's control by and said, i promise you, we will be able to do that. so i think what we're looking at is the force de industrialization of the entirety of europe. langley, you know, the united states certainly understands that if sanctions won't stop russia, then they will simply for force the, this economic aggression against russia by stopping europe by korean,

europe's economy. but boy, boy, but why it, it's, it isn't russia, it's d industrialize in europe. it's think americans doing an amazing thing about it, a pepe. want to jump in on that because i think it's a very germane point. go ahead. absolutely, look, i was in your i came from paris a week ago where our discussion is, apps is beyond off limits. you cannot have a civilized discussion like this in paris, in berlin, and now now maybe in rome and milan with georgia, milan, basically what's happening is very well concerted american push not only against russia, but specially against the you and german, especially against germ germany industrialization of germany means the industrialization of the new in the you going back to a boss through the equivalent of the middle ages. this is what's happening in the

americas, technically so far. have been happy pepe, i don't, i don't want to be a history nerd here or anything like that. but there was a plan for the di, industrialization of germany, was called the morgenthau plan and that was being revised by during, it's like over hold what i didn't big it would take and build 2022 for the mortgage about plan to be put into play peppy and the most extraordinary thing is that intellectuals from frankfurt, so, but i haven't seen any other that's great here. you know, you don't have a discussion in the, for instance, that germany has very good newspapers. still, frank, full of algamite. the of you don't see a discussion like that discussion of substance and discussion of the role of being fast souls and discard double expendable vessels that is being played by germany. and of course, in terms of the you,

this discussion in brussels is beyond the offline. because that the 5th and the 6th column this inside brussels, there are line. yeah. merican agenda and gilbert. how. what, what does ukraine survive? this? what will be what, what we call that ukraine after all is said and done in your mind gilbert. i think the see the girl will be under control trans this year or way to to see it so loss perhaps 80 percent that's definitely very. ringback service it will be a minor space territory. so really going to be integrated in country where you're

really in west, i wouldn't worry so much about the political services and the whole situation last year since my colleague and she really does, especially for my day when she got her, they use electricity, labor, the family winter years law, keeping in mind the average say it's around because it's just 16 years and all it is, once you're not aggressive, larger, not really going to the gas or oil bill to house or the point

is under the law is going to start your clinical activity and your care about warning brain and they do on the walls. well this, it's very interesting. this is going to play out because i think we all agree here that these referendums are an inflection point here. but we shouldn't be complacent here. the empire. i hate to be humiliated and it's being humiliated as we speak right now. so a lot more to come here. that's all the time we have gentlemen. many thanks my guess in bangkok, saint petersburg and here in moscow. and thanks to where you are for watching us here at ortiz, see you next time. remember, talk with news.

ah, a doubles are going to put well. talk about a, [000:00:00;00] with a lawyer. issue somebody over there

with lookout you up for you was up with the and i do so as you know that way. i don't mind. oh when i went to the wrong one, i just don't know if we have to figure out the thing becomes the advocate and engagement. it was the trail. when so many find themselves worlds apart, we choose to look for common ground.

ah ah, yes, the on joining russia, that's how the referendums in the independent don't boss with publix and to break away ukrainian regions ended with the vast majority of those in favor. we hear from people on the ground on how they feel about this historic with to renew and forces us to come. as you can see it itself, people come voluntarily. i'm so happy i'm about to cry. i'm really happy. we've come a long way and i've been waiting for it for ages. as western countries labeled referendums