it up for the story and more you can head to arty india's official telegram channel, as well as its way to twitter page. and for other stories we can hit our website said arti dot com. well, that brings us to the end of the bulletin from me and the museum and told me to again, thanks for joining us. move on when i was showing wrong. when i just don't know any rules that you have to see out. disdain becomes the attitude and engagement. it was betrayal. when so many find themselves worlds of warren, we choose to look for common ground.

ah, ah. hello and welcome to cross out were all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle. at this point, it is almost a near certainty. the regions of ukraine voting to reject cubes. rule will join the russian federation, and soon moscow will protect these people. as nato's war on russia continues, how things will escalate? is anybody's guess. ah crow, sucking the referendums in ukraine. i'm joined by my guess, pepe escobar in bangkok. he's an independent geopolitical analyst and author

specializing in eurasia in st. petersburg. we have gilbert doctorow. he is an independent political analyst and author of men was of an expert pat manager in moscow during the 19 ninety's. and here in moscow we have white reed. he is a journalist with sputnik news. i tell him across across the fact that means you can jump anytime you want, and i always appreciate gilbert. let me go to you 1st and st. petersburg, the votes are almost all counted, of the results will be in very soon what. what is the significance of these referendums because, versus how the geography, the political geography of ukraine is going to change dramatically as, as military conflict goes on. what are the implications, go ahead. implications, a box reynolds and the need reintegration or into the russian federation is important because ours that extends judy. a rush to deploy air, military forces, and search or otherwise would be, you know,

frontiers of us. and we're not with it is years in the us on the phone on days, which will be integrators for almost a, a note just missed. so there's a legal legal hour ish weather for us, or is it is all this record or it is, this is a mess with us. and that's what i told somebody. peppy, bad, centrally the same thing, because obviously these are not going to be recognized by the west. however, this is where the danger lies. because russia will claim that once they're inducted into the russian federation, they are russian sovereignty. and as this conflict goes on to non nato and washington and defacto will probably test this. and we have heard from,

from the russian side, don't do that because there will be very strong reactions here. so we are at a mo, an inflection point of a dangerous one at that peppy. yes, it's a very dangerous inflection point, but there are 2 very important things happening at the moment. one that we more or less got a confirmation of this, so they, they are now there are back channels between the americans and the russians. they are not talking directly, but at least we have back channels. this proves that the, by the ministrations absolutely terrified. they are cornered, they have no idea what they're going to do next, 1st of all because they don't have any strategic thinking. pretty batch and sullivan and blink and dumb and dumber doing strategic thinking. now if this doesn't go some hacker, right? and the pre planning, the whole car called episode was basically a pre planning for the russia army to protect the for be the best during the

reference this week. and what happened the, to you for analyses they tried to able to sing to disrupt it. no, it didn't work. so you know, the people who are voting and more people are holding already than in crimea. and as a bus supposed to have the record. but everybody else. it's 8589 percent. so it's a major success. what happens max, which is something that we could discuss 4 hours. is that to any attack by key ab is going to be an attack against the russian federation in we all know what that means and why it here in moscow. what when i've been thinking a lot about with looking at these referendums, is that they serve as a demonstration effect because, you know, all of us that if you know, a, even a little bit of ukrainian history know the plate, you know, that is always been the most fragile of states. ok. i cobbled together in the 20th century. and now we have these referendums. there are other places like odessa,

for example, that we watching very, very carefully. now obviously, the cab regime has military assets there. so people going to have to be very careful. but when they look at least dan basil say they did it, crimea did it, we can do it. and this is the most important precedence. it's being said, but it is not without its danger. go ahead. why it absolutely, and the officials that i spoke with at least one official i spoke with today when i went to the embassy of the dentist people's republic here in moscow, they predicted that this will certainly be a serious inflection point. that it means that in the short immediate term, hostilities are likely to escalate the official. i spoke with also predicted that it was possible that the the success of the referendums. i think we can now now say pretty confidently that they were successful. that will initiate

a or lead to an escalation in terms of the russian governments classification from a special military operation up to a anti terrorist operation which yield servers will notice is the rationale behind russian operations in syria. so certainly, you know, he also predicted that it's possible that russia may seek to label ukraine officially as a pair of states or a sponsor of terror. so certainly there are significant implications from these referendums, and we're already starting to see them play out. maybe i'm really glad that wyatt brought that up because we're going to go from the special military operation to a very different type of operation. and to say in, you know, in everyday parlance. if the sovereignty of these newly new regions of brush are violated, i'll say it quite bluntly be the gloves will come off. i think we all remember was about 10 days ago when for some unexpected reason,

the lights went out through most of ukraine. it wasn't for very long. it was if somebody was tapping the brakes here, reminding everyone the brakes can be more than tapped. go ahead, pepe. well this past summer, we have to go back to summer. can peter and all of you in the audience? this was discussed, face to face very, very serious conversation. we had some echoes from chinese echols about, this was an extremely serious conversation between pooty and she, she asked very strong questions and cruelty gave very detailed answers. but the chinese message was essentially, you have to try to wrap this up as soon as possible. so that leads us to the referendums that leads us to the transformation of the s m. o into affinity or a counter terrorist operation, which is the preferred law. does open run the up the russian army from chechnya to

syria and now to ukraine, so that her gloves and all the wise date, they are totally off as off this week. and that's why starting next week we have a completely different ball game. the russians in intelligence security matters. they seem to have this under control finally, and the internal frog around tutoring. with, i would say what a 5 percent minority may be, is solidified, and people understand why this has to go. one, at least one level up in the paying dial. we'll just wait for next week gilbert, but again with say we have to throw in this partial novelization of bringing up 300000 reservists. i mean that that's going to take time to deploy. if they're going to be deployed at all, it's going to take months. ok. i mean, they've already had basic training. they have, you know, they, they have their job descriptions here. but i mean, i'm reflecting upon what you said about timing. i've asked over the last couple of

weeks every single guests have had on the program, you know, who's got the clocks and who's has the time. and then there's a general consensus, gilbert that russia has the clocks and the time go ahead and st. petersburg. i think it has i think it's reasonable to expect that after after the service and the reporters continue, jackson across the new funky. i think it is reasonable to expect that the racial war and that is no longer or patricia will be and i believe that mr. jones, this war in matter. we said not days why people longer.

which is to be capitan, the, the civilian military administration's here, bio precision strengths that's entirely moved in the military. no. well, so what is the meaning of the parcel? was to say it's a matter of domestic russian actions both i believe that we will see this as a master the worst that every 3 months of training the logic to me they. ready will be forced to hold down the territories ukraine after. okay, why it here and in moscow there, there is, there is a,

there is a sense of in patients who live here, i live here wanting to see this thing wound up and i think the posts referendums is this opportunity kind of echoing a little bit with what gilbert had to say, your thoughts go ahead? absolutely was extremely popular. the referendum voters that i've spoken to. ah, overwhelmingly. you know everyone, everyone that i talk to is voted i, i've spoken to several people peers in their eyes. i. it's a situation of overwhelming emotion. people express to me basically they are feelings of relief. after 8 long years, i'm at what, why, why, if i get his job in here, i was a say that i was going to say that exactly. you know, we ever, either in, for the world that february 24th, but for these people it's been law 8 long years of suffering and carnage. and it's about time it came to an end. and that perspective is not understood whatsoever in the west. you read articles about what's going on ukraine,

most of don't even mentioned the mince process. it's so out of context here. so i, i am very happy after having what my program cover this for 8 years that they're going to get some kind of closure or general. i'm going to jump in here. we're going to go to a short break. and after that short break, we'll continue our discussion on the referendums in ukraine. stay with our ah, ah, with

ah, need to come to the russians state little narrative. i've stayed on the phone and ignore some scheme div us. mm hm. then i can also swap them out for a week within the 55. would this be okay so mine is 25 must be the one else with we will ban in the european union, the kremlin, jeff machine, the state on russia to date and school r t spoke mckibbin, our video agency, roughly all band to on youtube with

ah, ah ah, welcome back across sack where all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle to remind you we're discussing the referendums in ukraine. ah. okay, go back to pepe in bangkok. maybe you know very well. i read the american conservative asia times online antiwar dot com. you know what i read and i,

i'm kind of bewildered by a lot of these libertarian guys, and they're good people don't get me wrong. but, you know, you know, negotiated end to the conflict here. well, i don't negotiating the new republics of the russian federation. rush is not going to negotiate that. okay, and why would russian negotiate with people that were involved with the mince process? they welsh, they didn't keep their word. there's no, there's no negotiations that can go on that with the zalinski regime, of course not. and that's why kind of echoing a little bit about what a gilbert had to say in my mind, it's going to be regime change one way or another at the because at the end of the day and i want my audience to understand is very, very well russia isn't doing this now, so it has to do it again in 5 years or 10 years, or 15 years. that public opinion is not going to be forward. go in and do the job. as you said, you would pepe yes, because as much as the game may be changing this week with the velvet gloves off.

its still demilitarize ation campaign, which is proceeding a face and a long term. and that's if you cation campaign for that you're going to need to copy, paste the current pro nazi nail miles, decrypt on eyes the regime. and that's a given, this is something that's from the beginning. i would say the crumbling was reluctant to speed up. and now there's no reason to, to keep stalling. everybody knows it and internal public opinion supports it. in terms of negotiations, that's still nobody. so they go. sheets with europeans are vassals, you won't negotiate with european commission. you want to go shape with the berlin, paris, and out wrong, very interesting where we have ga maloney which sash isn't the russian but deep now she's not. so that's another different equation in europe. and in the us, we have, in a matter of what a month and a half,

we have the dams being expelled from capitol hill, essentially. so they're going to have to negotiate with republicans in congress. that's another story. completely different story and their margin over maneuver. of course, we'll see they're going to handling duck teleprompter reader present. so in these next one months to 2 months, the whole game is going to change. in fact, including the possibility of the step backtrack negotiations that these, these back channels that are now back in the case in business day, could find some accommodating way. we all know there's not, there's not going to be any a couple days because yeah, the russians have explicitly said this is a do or die affair. it's the new world order at stake in gilbert i, when i was up in st. petersburg during the internation economic form. this year i came across some people from the global south of

a certain diplomat. and he said, you know, peter, how is that? how can we find a win win situation? i said there's no such thing as a win win situation. once i'm going to win and one side is going to lose, and nato is going to lose. the european union is going to lose gilbert. your thoughts ross? i think it was the latest that was in your the motion to the you, mr. to resign resignation. but that was not a personal career. it is significant point turning point in versus relations. or if there's a way by moving around it from roles very the way we're not accepting the credentials of the new you about your current. i think be you

early in the current and the whole thing is going over your directly to washington industry. i think that the nuclear re, re and was cold in washington and russians are found. the is very important to mention because what, what is the issue is not russell, using they will be the most attention grain. the law and mr. trying to do it is

cutting its little systems under what are drones and there's one lou calling us in here. so i'm sure it's in the final countdown too. so it's interesting why it was going to be very interesting here as a whole sanctioned regime against russia because there's a whole lot of pride at stake here. ok, as your people pay higher food prices and you're getting cold in the winter, pride gets in the way hubris gets in the way. personally, i don't see the russians doing anybody any favors whatsoever. ok, again,

who's got the clocks and who's got the time. the european union has neither wyatt go ahead. absolutely, and i'd like to call you as attentions to what the german government is. so has said it suspects is sabotaged to downward stream pipelines. the denmark's prime minister has also said that it's hard to imagine. these are coincidences we know in february, u. s. president joe biden threatened that if russia invades, quote unquote, then there will no longer be ignored stream to we will bring an end to it. and a reporter asked him, but how will you do that exactly? since the project is under jeremy's control by and said, i promise you, we will be able to do that. so i think what we're looking at is the force de industrialization of the entirety of europe. langley, you know, the united states certainly understands that if sanctions won't stop russia, then they will simply force the, this economic aggression against russia by stopping europe, by credit in europe,

the economy. but boy, boy, but why it, it's, it isn't russia, it's d, industrialize in europe. it's think americans doing it that the amazing thing about it, a peppy, what a job in on that, because i think it's a very germane point. go ahead. absolutely, look, i was in your, i came from paris a week ago where our discussion is apps. it's beyond off limits, you can not have a civilized discussion like this in paris, in berlin, and now now maybe in rome and milan with georgia, milan, basically what's happening is a very well concerted american push, not only against russia, but specially against the you and germany, especially against germ germany, industrialization of germany, means the industrialization of the new and the you going back to a boss through the equivalent of the middle ages. this is what's happening in the americas, technically so far have been okay, but happy pepe. i don't want to be

a history nerd here or anything like that. but there was a plan for the di, industrialization of germany, was called the morgenthau plan. and that was being revised during the over hold. what i didn't think it would take to build 2022 for the mortgage about plan to be put into play peppy. and the most extraordinary thing is that intellectuals from frankfurt. so, but i haven't seen any other. that's great here. you know, you don't have a discussion in the, for instance, that germany has very good newspapers. still, frank, full of algamite. the of you don't see a discussion like that discussion of substance and discussion of the role of being a vassals and discard, doable expendable vessels that is being played by germany. and of course, in terms of the use, this discussion in brussels is beyond often because the 5th and the 6th column this

inside brussels, they are like the american agenda and gilbert how, what, what does ukraine survive? this what will be what, what we call that ukraine after all is said and done in your mind. gilbert. i think the see the girl will be under control trans this year for way to to see it. so loss perhaps 80 percent. sure. and he. ringback service it will be a minor space territory. so in order to be integrated in country

really west, i wouldn't worry so much about the cream of the political services and the whole situation last year since my colleague and she really does, especially for my day when she got her, they use electricity, labor, the family winter years to 500 years. keeping in mind the average say it's around because he's just 16 years and all that is, once you're not aggressive, larger, not really going to the gas or oil bill to house or the point is under the law is going to sar

dramatic political activity here they care about warning brain and they do on the walls. well, they said it's very interesting. this is going to play out because i think we all agree here that these referendums are an inflection point here. but we shouldn't be complacent here. the empire, i hate to be humiliated and it's being humiliated as we speak right now. so a lot more to come here. that's all the time we have gentlemen. many thanks them i guess in bangkok saint petersburg and here in moscow. and thanks to where view were for watching us here at our dc and next time, remember process with ah, a wrong one. all

truth just don't hold any. you want to see how the steam becomes the african and engagement equals the trail. when so many find themselves will to part, we choose to look for common ground for a doctor about a week with

a choice issue, somebody over there, both of those with a, with the and i do so as you know that way. i don't mind what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have. it's crazy. even foundation, let it be an arms race is on,

often very dramatic development. only personally and getting to resist. i don't see how that strategy will be successful, very political time. to sit down and talk with new footage of any kind of damage. north spin pricing system emerges, the former polish foreign minister. thanks, washington printing that with tosh, the russian gas supply. whoops, yes, fun joining russia. that's how to referendums and the independent dumbass republics . and to break away ukrainian regions ended with the vast majority of both in favor . several, 155 millimeters shows what the sensor of your net on wednesday morning actually it was at all. i am a correspondent and, and.