for the story and more you can head to our t. india's official telegram channel, as well as it's quite twitter page. and for other stories, we can hit our website at arty dot com. well that brings us to the end of this bulletin from me and the museum until we meet again. thanks for joining us. ah. ringback of course you, genius, thank you. that was a forced of national quito which is obviously you to room and you have a limit controllers like from when you do or not. but who did a

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hello and welcome to cross off. were all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle. at this point, it is almost a near certainty, the regions of ukraine voting to reject gibbs rule will join the russian federation . and soon, moscow will protect these people. as nato's war on russia continues, how things will escalate? is anybody's guess a cross sucking the referendums in ukraine. i'm joined by my guess, pepe escobar in bangkok. he's an independent g. nickel analysts and author specializing in eurasia in st. petersburg. we have gilbert doctorow. he is an independent political analyst and author of memoirs of an expert pat manager in moscow during the 1990 s. and here in moscow we have white read. he is a journalist with sputnik news item across our girls that effect, that means you can jump any time you want. and i always appreciate gilbert. let me go to you 1st and st. petersburg, the votes are almost al, counted of the results will be in very soon what, what is the significance of these referendums?

because, versus how the geography, the political geography of ukraine is going to change dramatically as, as military conflict goes on. what are the implications? go ahead. a box, reynolds and the need reintegration over here to the russian federation is important because ours says judy, a rush to deploy air, military forces and search or is all the problems years ago. and we're not with it is years in the us on the phone days and she'll be in the office for almost a a knows just miss. so there's

a legal or really, you know, hours where they're written for us or is a contradiction. there's all this river or it is missing the mesh near us. and that is one of my children. pepe bad centrally the same thing because obviously these are not going to be recognized by the west. however, this is where the danger lies because russia will claim that once they're inducted into the russian federation, they are russian sovereignty. and as this conflict goes on to non nato and washington and defacto will probably test this and we've heard from, from the russian side, don't do that because there will be very strong reactions here. so we are at a mo, an inflection point, a very dangerous one. at that peppy. yeah, it's a very dangerous inflection point with that. are 2 very important things happening at the moment. one that we more or less got a confirmation of this, so they,

they are now, they are back channels between the americans and the russians. they're not talking directly, but at least we have back channels. this proves that the by the ministrations absolutely terrify. they are cornered. they have no idea what they're going to do next. first of all because they don't have any strategic thinking pretty much and sullivan and blink and dumb and dumber. doing strategic thinking. it just doesn't go some hacker. right. and the pre planning of the whole car called episode was basically a pre planning for the russian army to protect the for b, b barriers during the referendums this week. and so what happens the, the chronology is they tried everything to disrupt it. no, it didn't work, so you know, the people who are voting and more people are voting already been in crimea and bust opposed to has the record. but everybody else. it's 8589 percent.

so it's a major success. what happens max, which is something that could discuss 4 hours, is that to any attack by pierre is going to be an attack against the russian federation in we all know what that means. why it here in moscow, what i've been thinking a lot about would be looking at these referendums is that they serve as a demonstration effect because, you know, all of us know, even a little bit of ukrainian history. no. the point, you know, that is always been the most fragile of states. ok. i cobbled together in the 20th century. and now we have these referendums. there are other places like odessa, for example, that we watching very, very carefully. now obviously the camp regime has military assets there, so people going to have to be very careful. but when they look at don bouts will say they did it, crimea did it, we can do it. and this is the most important precedence. it's being said, but it is not without its danger. go ahead. why?

absolutely. and officials that i spoke with at least one official i spoke with today. when i went to the embassy of the denounced people's republic here in moscow, they predicted that this will certainly be a serious inflection point. that it means that in the short immediate term, hostilities are likely to escalate the official. i spoke with also predicted that it was possible that the the success of the referendums. i think we can now now say pretty confidently that they were successful. that will initiate a or lead to an escalation in terms of the russian government classification, from a special military operation up to a anti terrorist operation, which i had servers will notice is the rationale behind russian operations in syria. so certainly, i, you know,

he also predicted that it's possible that russia may seek to label ukraine officially as a pair of states or a sponsor of terror. so certainly, there are significant implications from these referendums, and we're already starting to see them play out. maybe i'm really glad that wyatt brought that up because we're going to go from the special military operation to a very different type of operation. and to say in, you know, in everyday parlance, if the sovereignty of these newly new regions of russia are violated. i'll say it quite bluntly be the gloves will come off. i think we all remember was about 10 days ago when for some unexpected reason, the lights went out through most of ukraine. it wasn't for very long. it was if somebody was tapping the brakes here, reminding everyone the brakes can be more than tapped. go ahead, pepe. well, this has the summer. we have to go back to summer. can peter and all of you in the audience? this was discussed, face to face very,

very serious conversation. we had some echoes from chinese echoes about this was an extremely serious conversation between pooty and she. she asked very strong questions and you gave very detailed answers. but the chinese message was essentially, you have to try to wrap this up as soon as possible. so that leads us to the referendums that leads us to the transformation of the s m. o into a city or a counter terrorist operation, which is the preferred law. this open run the up, the russian army from chechnya to syria and now to ukraine. so, velvet gloves and all the wise date, they are totally off as off this week. and that's why starting next week, we have a completely different ball game, the russians in intelligence and security matters. they seem to have this under control finally and the internal front, around tutoring would, i would say what

a 5 percent minority may be, is solidified, and people understand why this has to go one, at least one level up in the paying dial. we'll just wait for next week gilbert, but again with say we have to throw in this partial novelization of bringing up 300000 reservists. i mean that that's going to take time to deploy. if they're going to be deployed at all, it's going to take months. ok. i mean, they've already had basic training. they have, you know, they, they have their job descriptions here. but i mean, i'm reflecting upon what you said about timing. i've asked over the last couple of weeks every single guests have had on the program, you know, who's got the clocks and who's has the time. and they, there's a general consensus, gilbert that russia has the clocks and the time go ahead and st. petersburg. i think it has i think it's reasonable,

but after after the service and the reporters continue, jackson gross new from to you. i think it is reasonable to expect that the racial war and that is no longer award to be and i believe that mr. ball to end this war in a matter. we said not days, people. why don't people in the longest which is to the capital and the, the civilian military administration's here bio precision trucks that's entirely within the military. so what is the meaning of the parcel? was a come back to say it's

a matter of domestic russian. and i believe that we will see this. but a master's. they were gonna bring us 3 months of training. the logic to me, they will be forced to hold down the territories of ukraine after is it okay? why it here? and in moscow, there, there is, there is a, there is a sense of in patient, so you live here. i live here wanting to see this thing wound up and i think the posts referendums is this opportunity kind of echoing a little bit with what gilbert had to say. your thoughts go ahead. absolutely was extremely popular. the referendum the voters that i've spoken to. overwhelmingly, you know everyone, everyone that i've talked to is voted i've spoken to several people peers in their

eyes and it's a situation of overwhelming emotion. people express me basically. they are feelings of relief after 8 long years. why, why, if i get his job in here, i was a say that i was going to say that exactly, you know, we ever, either in the world it's february 24th. but for these people, it's been the law 8 long years of suffering and carnage. and it's about time it came to an end. and that perspective is not understood whatsoever in the west. you read articles about what's going on ukraine. most of don't even mentioned the mince process, it's so out of context here. so i, i am very happy after having what my program cover this for 8 years that they're going to get some kind of closure or general. i'm going to jump in here. we're going to go to a short break, and after that short break, we'll continue our discussion on the referendums in ukraine. stay with

ah. l look forward to talking to you all. that technology should work for people. a robot must obey the orders given by human beings, except we're said shorter to conflict with the 1st law. show your identification, we should be very careful about artificial intelligence. at that point, obviously is to place trust rather than fear a job with artificial intelligence. real summoning the demon obama protect its own existence with hey ah,

welcome back. across up were all things are considered. i'm peter level to remind you. we're discussing the referendums in ukraine. ah. okay, go back to pepe in bangkok. maybe you know very well. i read the american conservative asia times online anti war dot com. you know what i read and i, i'm kind of bewildered by a lot of these libertarian guys, and they're good people don't get me wrong. but, you know, negotiated end to the conflict here. well, i don't negotiating the new republics of the russian federation. russia is not going to negotiate that. okay. and why would russian negotiate with people that were involved with the mince process? they, they, welsh, they didn't keep their word. there's no, there's no negotiations that can go on that with uminski regime, of course not. and that's why kind of echoing a little bit about what a gilbert had to say. in my mind,

it's going to be regime change one way or another. that's the because at the end of the day and i want my audience to understand this very, very well russia isn't doing this now. so it has to do it again in 5 years or 10 years, or 15 years. that public opinion is not going to be forward. go in and do the job. as you said, you would pepe yes. because as much as the game may be changing this week with the velvet gloves off. its still demilitarize ation campaign, which is proceeding a face and a long term g. that's if you cation company for that, you're going to need to copy, paste the current pro nazi nail miles, decrypt on eyes the regime. and that's a given, this is something that's from the beginning. i would say the crumbling was reluctant to speed up. and now there's no reason to, to keep stalling. everybody knows it and internal public opinion supports it. in terms of negotiations, that's still nobody. so they go, sheets with europeans,

are vassals, you won't negotiate with european commission. you want to go sheets with the berlin, paris and our role, very interesting where we have ga maloney which sash isn't the russian but deep now she's not. so that's another different equation in europe. and in the us, we have in a matter of what a month and a half, we have the dams being expelled from capitol hill, essentially. so they're going to have to negotiate with republicans in congress. that's another story. completely different story and they're marching south maneuver, of course. well caesar that are going to handling duck teleprompter reader present . so in these next one months to 2 months, the whole game is going to change. in fact, including the possibility of the step backtrack negotiations that these, these back channels that are now back in the case in business day,

could find some accommodating way. we all know there's not, that's not going to be any a couple days because so yeah, the russians have explicitly said this is a do or die affair. it's the new world order at stake in gilbert i. when i was up in saint petersburg during the internation economic forum, this year i came across some people from the global south of a certain diplomat. and he said, you know, peter, how is that? how can we find a win win situation? i said there's no such thing as a win win situation. one side is going to win and one side is going to lose. and nato is going to lose. the european union is going to lose gilbert, your thoughts? you're going to ross, i think it was like to do that. you're the motion to the you, mr. to resign resignation. but that

was not a personal career. it is significant point turning point in relations with the are you there's a way by removing their own from rose very the way we're not accepting the credentials of the new year. i think you early in the current and the whole thing is going over your directly to washington. i think that the nuclear re for that reason should be and was cold in washington. and the surviving russians are around the is very important to mention

because what, what is the issue is not using they will be the most attention crane receiving huge, you're at the law. and mr. trying to do it is cutting in missile systems under what are drones and there's one that lou calling us in here. so i'm sure it's in the final countdown too. so it's interesting why it's what's

going to be very interesting here as a whole sanction regime against russia, because there's a whole lot of pride at stake here. ok, as your people pay higher food prices and you're getting cold in the winter, pride gets in the way hubris gets in the way. personally, i don't see the russians doing anybody any favors whatsoever. ok, again, who's got the clocks and who's got the time. the european union has neither wyatt go ahead. absolutely, and i'd like to call you as attentions to what the german government is. so has said it suspects is sabotaged to downward stream pipelines. the denmark's prime minister has also said that it's hard to imagine. these are coincidence, as we know in february u. s. president joe biden threatened that if russia invades, quote unquote, then there will no longer be ignored stream to we will bring an end to it. and a reporter asked him, but how will you do that exactly?

since the project is under jeremy's control by and said, i promise you, we will be able to do that. so i think what we're looking at is the force de industrialization of the entirety of europe. langley, you know, the united states certainly understands that if sanctions won't stop russia, then they will simply force the, this economic aggression against russia by stopping europe, by crying europe's economy. but, boy, but why it, it's, it isn't russia, it's d industrialize in europe. it's think americans doing an amazing thing about it, a pepe. what a job in on that because i think it's a very germane point. go ahead. absolutely, look, i was in your, i came from paris a week ago where our discussion is apps. it's beyond off limits, you cannot have a civilized discussion like this, the paris in berlin, and i'll now maybe in rome and me laugh with georgia milan basically what's

happening is very well concert to american push, not only against russia, but specially against the you and germany, especially against germ germany, industrialization of germany, means the industrialization of the new in the you going back to a boss through the equivalent of the middle ages. this is what's happening in the america spectacles so far have been okay. b pepe, i don't want to be a history nerd here or anything like that. but there was a plan for the d. industrialization of germany was called the morgenthau plan and that was being revised during the 2nd world war. i didn't think it would take to build 2022 for the mortgage about plan to be put into play peppy. and the most extraordinary thing is that intellectuals from frankfurt, so, but haven't seen any other that's, that's a little crazier. you know,

you don't have a discussion in the, for instance, that germany has very good newspapers. still, frank, full of algamite. the of you don't see a discussion like that discussion of substance and discussion of the role of being a vassals and discard, doable expendable vessels that is being played by germany. and of course, in terms of the you, this discussion in brussels is beyond often because the 5th and the 6 column this inside brussels, they are flying the american agenda. and gilbert how, what, what does ukraine survive? this what will be what, what we call that ukraine after all is said and done in your mind. gilbert. i think the see the girl will be under control trans this year or way to to see it. so loss are asked 80

percent. that's the. ringback service it will be a minor space so really resorted to be integrated country really west. but i wouldn't worry so much about the cream of the political services and the whole situation. wester your since my colleague and she really just especially for my day when she got her, they use electricity, labor day, family, winter years to 500 years. keeping in mind,

the average is around because it's just 1600 years and all it is, once you're not aggressive, larger, not really going to be gas or bill to house, or the point is under here on the wall is going to start your little activity here. here most about morning and they do on the walls. well this is, it's very interesting. this is going to play out because i think we all agree here that these referendums are an inflection point here. but we shouldn't be complacent here. the empire, i hate to be humiliated and it's being humiliated as we speak right now. so a lot more to come here. that's all the time we have gentlemen. many thanks to my guess in bangkok,

saint petersburg and here in moscow. and thanks to where view were for watching us here at r t c. and next time, remember prosper with blue. ah, with those suffered because we're getting them business and you'll clean them priyah b. e daily. that was chosen. yeah. americans. grey, you, when you wrote it, you did go through it is just such, not critical just feeling in for you was just such an sharevault. it was nice talking to different student full, a child wishing that you use her own the with them in the brown and you're still with her job. she

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