[000:00:00;00] ah, ah, ah hello and welcome to cross out. were all things are considered. i am peter labelle. at this point, it is almost a near certainty. the regions of ukraine voting to reject kids rule will join the russian federation. and soon, moscow will protect these people. as nato's war on russia continues. how things will escalate? is anybody's guess. ah, crap, sucking the referendums in ukraine. i'm joined by my guess, pepe escobar in bangkok. he's an independent geopolitical analyst and author specializing in eurasia in st. petersburg,

we have gilbert doctorow. he is an independent political analyst and author of men was of an expert pat manager in moscow during the $990.00 s. and here in moscow we have white read. he is, a journalist, whispered nicknames, i gentlemen cross across the fact that means you can jump anytime you want. and i always appreciate gilbert. let me go to you 1st and st. petersburg, the votes are almost all counted, of the results will be in very soon. what, what is the significance of these referendums because, versus how the geography, the political geography of ukraine is going to change dramatically as, as military conflict goes on. what are the implications, go ahead. implications are oaks reynolds and the need reintegration over here to the russian federation. is important because ours of excess judy, a rush to deploy air, military forces and search or otherwise would be, you know,

frontiers of us. and we're not with it is years in the us on the phone on days and she'll be integrators of the 4. 0 so, so you are a nose just miss. so there's a legal or illegal or ish weather for us or is it is all this record or it is. this is a mess then rush. and that's what i told somebody. pepe bad, centrally the same thing because obviously these are not going to be recognized by the wes. however, this is where the danger lies, because russia will claim that once they're inducted into the russian federation, they are russian sovereignty. and as this conflict goes on to non nato and washington and defacto will probably test this and we have heard from,

from the russian side, don't do that because there will be very strong reactions here. so we are at a mo, an inflection point of a dangerous one at that peppy. yes, it's a very dangerous inflection point, but there are 2 very important things happening at the moment. one that we more or less got confirmation of this, so they, they are now. they are back channels between the americans and the russians. they're not talking directly, but at least we have back channels. this proves that the by the ministrations absolutely terrified, they are cornered, they have no idea what they're going to do next. first of all because they don't have any strategic thinking. pretty bad, and sullivan and blink and dumb and dumber doing strategic thinking. now if this doesn't, doesn't matter, right? and the pre planning, the whole car called episode was basically a pre planning for the russia army to protect the for b,

b barriers during the referendums this week. and so what happens, the new chronology is they tried everything to disrupt it. no, you didn't work. so you know, the people who are voting and more people are holding already been in crimea and busta opposed to has the record. but everybody else. it's 8589 percent. so it's a major success. what happens max, which is something that we could discuss 4 hours. is that any attack by pierre is going to be an attack against the russian federation in we all know what that means . why it here in moscow, what i've been thinking a lot about would be looking at these referendums, is that they serve as a demonstration effect because, you know, all of us said that, you know, even a little bit of ukrainian history. no. the point, you know, that is always been the most fragile of states. okay. i cobbled together in the 20th century. and now we have these referendums. there are other places like odessa,

for example, that we watching very, very carefully. now obviously, the camp regime has military assets there, so people are going to have to be very careful. but when they look at don bow, so say they did it, crimea did it, we can do it, and this is the most important precedence. it's being said. but it is not without its danger. go ahead. why? absolutely. and officials that i spoke with at least one official i spoke with today when i went to the embassy of the dentist people's republic here in moscow, they predicted that this will certainly be a serious inflection point, that it means that in the short immediate term abilities are likely to escalate the official i spoke with also predicted that it was possible that the the success of the referendums. i think we can now now say pretty confidently that they were successful. that will initiate

a or lead to an escalation in terms of the russian governments classification from a special military operation up to a anti terrorist operation, which i had servers will notice is the rationale behind russian operations in syria. so certainly i, you know, he also predicted that it's possible that russia may seek to label ukraine officially as a pair of states or a sponsor of terror. so certainly, there are significant implications from these referendums, and we're already starting to see them play out. maybe i'm really glad that wyatt brought that up because we're going to go from the special military operation to a very different type of operation. and to say in, you know, in everyday parlance. if the sovereignty of these newly new regions of brush are violated, i'll say it quite bluntly be the gloves will come off. i think we all remember was about 10 days ago when for some unexpected reason,

the lights went out through most of ukraine. it wasn't for very long. it was if somebody was tapping the brakes here, reminding everyone the brakes can be more than tapped. go ahead, pepe. well this past summer, we have to go back to summer. can peter and all of you in the audience? this was discussed, face to face very, very serious conversation. we had some echoes from chinese echols about, this was an extremely serious conversation between pooty and she, she asked very strong questions and could you gave very detailed answers. but the chinese message was essentially, you have to try to wrap this up as soon as possible. so that leads just to the referendums that leads us to the transformation of the s m. o into a c p o, a counter terrorist operation, which is the preferred model, is open run the up the russian army from chechnya to syria and now to ukraine. so,

velvet gloves and all the wise date, the are totally off as off this week. and that's why starting next week, we have a completely different ball game. the russians in intelligence security matters. they seem to have this under control finally and the internal frog around tutoring . with i would say what a 5 percent minority may be, is solidified, and people understand why this has to go one, at least one level up in the paying dial. we'll just wait for next week gilbert, but again with say we have to throw in this partial novelization of bringing up 300000 reservists. i mean that that's going to take time to deploy. if they're going to be deployed at all, it's going to take months. ok. i mean, they've already had basic training. they have, you know, they, they have their job descriptions here. but i mean, i'm reflecting upon what you said about timing. i've asked over the last couple of

weeks every single guests have had on the program, you know, who's got the clocks and who's has the time. and then there's a general consensus, gilbert that russia has the clocks and the time go ahead and st. petersburg. i think it has i think it's reasonable, but after after the service and the reporters continue, jackson was new for me to think it is reasonable to expect that the racial war and that is no more or less will be and i believe that mr. ball to end this war in a manner we use people. why don't people along which is to be capitan, the,

the civilian military administration's here, bio precision strengths that's entirely moved in the military. no. well, that's. so what is the meaning of the parcel? was to say it's a matter of domestic russian actions. i believe that we will see this yes, but a master the worst was 3 months of training. the logic to me they. ready will be forced to hold down the territories ukraine after is it okay. why it here? and in moscow there, there is, there is a, there is a sense of in patient,

so you live here. i live here wanting to see this thing wound up and i think the posts referendums is this opportunity kind of echoing a little bit with what gilbert had to say. your thoughts go ahead. absolutely was extremely popular. the referendum the voters that i've spoken to. ah, overwhelmingly you know, everyone, everyone that i've talked to is voted i've, i've spoken to several people peers in their eyes. i, it's a situation of overwhelming emotion. people express to me basically they are feelings of relief. after 8 long years, i'm at what, why, why if i get his job in here, i was a say that i was going to say that exactly. you know, we ever either in, for the world that february 24th. but for these people, it's been the law 8 long years of suffering and carnage. and it's about time it came to an end. and that perspective is not understood whatsoever in the west. you read articles about what's going on ukraine. most of don't even mentioned the mince

process, it's so out of context here. so i, i am very happy after having what my program cover this for 8 years that they're going to get some kind of closure or general. i'm going to jump in here. we're going to go to a short break, and after that short break, we'll continue our discussion on the referendums in ukraine. stay with architect ah, ah, nice come to russian state to never see as time goes on and ignore some keen devastation mckindoe's house on some of it within the city. several disabilities on that is provided. stevie when else calls about this, even though we will van in the european union the kremlin. yup. machines. the state on russia today and split marquee sputnik given our video agency,

roughly all band to on you to send me to school nutrition. vicky this is chris with ah, the 1st time in history, an entire country's culture has been cancelled. the very modern weapon cancel, culture. daily desperate. wonder who lucille my last little when william fraud kit, just me sitting there with the phrase now particularly refers to counseling russian culture yet know what could be a few orders. because if to when you're miles for cure, which will be your there is charlie mozilla that over the most of the sub richland,

m. e them we what rushes created over the past 1500 years. there's no question. harshly condemned, reviled and reject. it keeps it in line and you said it's funny at the will of bramble, there's a lot closer on a whole bunch. thank you said a little sure. the list, joining total condemnation gross daily, and now includes dostoevsky to cascade and shostakovich that i need to you. call it left. but yes, she says that what they may just be the time. will you do? obama lee? you're not going to do that a little bit more. ah, welcome back across ok, we're all things considered. i'm peter lavelle to remind you we're discussing the

referendums in ukraine. ah. okay, we go back to pepe in bangkok i may be, you know, very well i read the american conservative asia times online antiwar dot com. you know what i read and i, i'm kind of bewildered by a lot of libertarian guys and they're good. people don't get me wrong, but you know, you know, negotiated end to the conflict here. well, i don't negotiating the new republics of the russian federation. russia is not going to negotiate that. okay. and why would russian negotiate with people that were involved with the men's process? they, they, well, they didn't keep their word. there's no, there's no negotiations that can go on that with the zalinski regime, of course not. and that's why kind of echoing a little bit about what a gilbert had to say in my mind,

it's going to be regime change one way or another. that's because at the end of the day, and i want my audience to understand this very, very well, russia isn't doing this now. so it has to do it again in 5 years or 10 years, or 15 years. that public opinion is not going to be forward. go in and do the job. as you said, you would pepe yes because as much as the game may be changing this week with the velvet gloves off. it's still demilitarize ation campaign, which is proceeding a face and a long term g. now, if you cation company for that, you're going to need to copy paste the current pro nazi nail miles, decrypt on eyes the regime. and that's a given, this is something that's from the beginning. i would say the crumbling was reluctant to speed up. and now there's no reason to, to keep stalling. everybody knows it and internal public opinion supports it. in terms of negotiations, that's still nobody. so they go, sheets with europeans,

are vassals, you won't negotiate with european commission. you want to go. she ate with the berlin, paris and our role, very interesting, where we have ga maloney which sash isn't the russian but deep now she's not. so that's another different equation in europe. and in the us, we have in a matter of what a month and a half, we have the dams being expelled from capitol hill, essentially. so they're going to have to negotiate with republicans in congress. that's another story. completely different story and their margin over maneuver. of course, we'll see they're going to have a link duck teleprompter reader present. so in these next one months to 2 months, the whole game is going to change. in fact, including the possibility of the step back track negotiations, at least these back channels that are now back in the case in business day,

could find some accommodating way. we all know there's not, that's not going to be any a couple days because yeah, the russians have explicitly said this is a do or die affair. it's the new world, other stake in gilbert i. when i was up in saint petersburg during the internation economic forum, this year, i came across some people from the global south of a certain diplomat. and he said, you know, peter, how is that? how can we find a win win situation? i said, there is no such thing as a win win situation. one side is going to win and one side is going to lose. and nato is going to lose. the european union is going to lose gilbert, your thoughts in ross? i think it was like to do the latest. it was in the motion to the you,

mr. to resign resignation. but that was not a personal career. it is significant point turning point in relations with the or if there's a way by removing their own from roles, they're very way we're not accepting the credentials of your current and they be you early in the current and the whole thing is going over this. you're directly to washington. i think that the nuclear re sector and was cold in washington. and the surviving russians are found. the is very important to

mention because what, what is the issue is not using national, where they will be the most attention crane receiving huge. you're at the law and mr. trying to do it is cutting ish, mitchell systems. what are drones? and there's one that lou calling us in here. so a, i think the final countdown too. so it's interesting why it was going to be very interesting here as

a whole sanctioned regime against russia because there's a whole lot of pride at stake here. ok, as your people pay higher food prices and you're getting cold in the winter, pride gets in the way hubris gets in the way. personally, i don't see the russians doing anybody any favors whatsoever. ok, again, who's got the clocks and who's got the time. the european union has neither wyatt go ahead. absolutely, and i'd like to call you as attentions to what the german government is. so has said it suspects is sabotaged to downward stream pipelines. the denmark's prime minister has also said that it's hard to imagine. these are coincidences we know in february, u. s. president joe biden threatened that if russia invades, quote unquote, then there will no longer be ignored stream to we will bring an end to it. and a reporter asked him, but how will you do that exactly?

since the project is under jeremy's control by and said, i promise you, we will be able to do that. so i think what we're looking at is the force de industrialization of the entirety of europe. langley, you know, the united states certainly understands that if sanctions won't stop russia, then they will simply force the, this economic aggression against russia by stopping europe, by credit in europe, the economy. but boy, but why it, it's, it isn't russia, it's d industrialize in europe. it's thing americans doing it that the amazing thing about it, a peppy. what a job in on that, because i think it's a very germane point. go ahead. absolutely, look, i was in your, i came from paris a week ago where our discussion is apps. it's beyond off limits, you can not have a civilized discussion like this, the paris in berlin, and now now maybe in rome and milan with georgia, milan,

basically what's happening is very well concerted. american push not only against russia, but specially against the you and germany, especially against germ germany, industrialization of germany, means the industrialization of the new and the you going back to a boss through the equivalent of the middle east. this is what's happening in the america spectacles so far have been okay. happy pepe. i don't want to be a history nerd here or anything like that. but there was a plan for the d. industrialization of germany was called the morgenthau plan, and that was being revised during the over hold. what i didn't think it would take to build 2022 for the mortgage about plan to be put into play peppy. and the most extraordinary thing is that intellectuals from frankfurt, so, but i haven't seen any other that's a little crazier. you know, you don't have a discussion in the, for instance,

that germany has very good newspapers. still, frank, full of algamite. the of you don't see a discussion like that discussion of substance and discussion of the role of be in fact souls and discard the ball expendable vessels that is being played by germany . and of course, in terms of the use, this discussion in brussels is beyond often because the 5th and the 6 column this inside brussels, they are lying. yeah. american agenda and gilbert. how, what, what does ukraine survive? this? what will be, what, what we call that ukraine after all is said and done in your mind, gilbert. i think the see, the girl will be under control trans this year,

or way to to see it. so loss or sent those not sure. and he is in. ringback service it will be a minor state territory. so in order to be integrated country, you're really west. well, i wouldn't worry so much about creating the political services and the whole situation last year since my colleague and she really just, especially for my the day when she got her, they use electricity, labor,

the family years law to 500 years keeping in mind the average is around because it's just 1600 years and all it is, once you're a larger, now we're going to the gas or oil bill to the house or the point is under the law is going to sar dramatic political activity. and you're good to hear about warning brain. and they do want to have well, they said it's, it's very interesting. this is going to play out because i think we all agree here that these referendums are an inflection point here. but we shouldn't be complacent here. the empire, i hate to be humiliated and it's being humiliated as we speak right now. so a lot more to come here. that's all the time we have gentlemen. many thanks to my guess in bangkok, saint petersburg and here in moscow. and thanks to our view or for watching us here

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a grain. lisa a with moscow opens an international terrorism probe into a suspected attack on the russian german goldstein pipeline. that's up to several western media outlets claims the cia had warned you can choose all the potential type months ago. local officials say 6 people, a wounded in ukrainian, shedding of care on the attack comes after an overwhelming majority of people that voted in favor of joining russia and china labels. washington are disruptive.