cons government will be elected was 2 3rd majority of them out of that. we love emron con. he is our leader. we're here for real freedom and we'll keep supporting him, ron kon. i know. okay. mug, i believe the best leader who have spoken for kashmir at world fora and has established pakistan's position in the world. community is in ran kong who is right now speaking over that level that today i'm on time is addressing a huge of a lease and was up about it just to get better luck. mike is found, control cost me and he's talking about the same audio only had he says that his lee marquez had sponsored by the americans and backed by the movie and supported by the media and the ruling family. now, the city of harley actually was a part of that quite as he says, that decipher must be made public so that people can know what the americans might have asking if i can find your diploma in his busy mom con also said that even

never to compromise on the, on the cause off, gosh me, it will give fighting a while. the news, our thank you doing this here in moscow. so all the, our more international news with hello and welcome to cross talk where all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle

. western audiences have been flooded with one wave after another propaganda when it comes to ukraine. but what matters most is the generation of political and strategic facts. for example, the induction of 4 ukranian regions into russia and the sabotage of the north stream pipelines. these realities will determine the outcome of biscuits ah cross ducking the moment of truth, i'm joined by my guest latimer, goldstein and providence. he is the chair of the department of slavic studies at brown university in washington. we have michael maloof. he is a former pentagon senior security policy analyst and in tanzania. we have ted see he is a conflict consultant in a retired u. s. foreign service officer or a gentleman, cross sock rules in the fact that means he can jump anytime you want. and i always appreciate michael. let me go to you 1st. here. political facts are what matter most. and joseph burrell said this conflict in ukraine will be one on the

battlefield. the only thing he's ever said that i agree with. so if we, we have the induction of these 4 regions of ukraine into russia after referenda. and then we have this very strange, but basically very expected as sabotage of the north stream. both are turning points and in for me, because once these provinces regions are part of russia, they will never be negotiated way. there's no negotiation that russia will be involved in and with the sabotage of these pipelines, it will probably never be built. i wouldn't do it, it will this be blown up again. um, the quote unquote leverage moscow had with europe is gone. so we're in a different, very different trajectory now, and i'm very emphatic when everything is said and done, one side wins and one side loses. there's no win, win here, michael and watching him. no, not at this point. it appears that all options have been broken. now to try to reach a settlement on this thing that, that the hope was that there would be some form of settlement. but this,

the sub blowing up of the pipeline seems to have been the proverbial straw. and i, i think of moscow has basically decided just to look eastward and, and go as your agent past. and that it's going to be very, very difficult for a year. and then it really is a reflection on a wing for the us ultimately. and, and it's oil companies, it basically now has made europe a slave to us energy once again, because they're gonna be needing that very, very shortly. and already the u. s. is at capacity and delivery. and the europeans are going to be having a very, very difficult time trying to find any substitutes in the near term. i understand that a chances schoultz of germany was just in saudi arabia didn't get what he wanted. he got ones out one shipment,

a one ship of oh okay. okay. okay. be ultimate. but my, what i also have to point out you that the energy that europe will be importing from the u. s. will be very, very expensive. okay? that is the game changer. vladimir, let me go to you because this has been just as much a war on germany as it has been on russia. it's really quite amazing the parallels here because it, germany's economy is going to have a very difficult time recovering. remarkably, who would have thought some german companies want to move to america, because they have cheaper prices. okay. this is all part of the plan here, but let's stay with ukraine here. if there is going to be any kind of negotiated and then the conflicts do have negotiated, and i have to wonder if camp is even going to be at the table. vladimir your thoughts? yeah, i think 1st thing you have to remember that not nato a stake story, it's kind of old slogan, is to keep russia out in germany down in the americans,

dean and is blowing up the pipe is just precisely like one master stroke. i would say which accomplishes, of his goals, would it, would it also accomplish just a sense of very, very kind of powerful and strong message all over the world, russia and china in particular. i imagine the chinese a, what you did with demand is attention. now it is so some, a tweets from chinese officials, they don't buy, of course, this narrative that garage is involved. they know who, who did it, and they know that they can be next because this is, i think, you know, they're watching a role people. they're watching of what you know, united states can do what the needs are, can do with great attention. so in the long run, it might be sort of a good move, again, say in germany and russia, but you know, j nice. i will definitely will, will consider as taking a consideration in there for the policies. and the last point is, of course, as russia, you know, i, you know, i know in the russian culture and history is strongly be the degree that i sent all

the stake a where seriously tried to be partners. i tried to learn you them was all the brothers you them as teachers. but them always that you know, sounds like that the more us doing that you, they even are eastwood or inward. and i think it's finally with either each this to this point that i was just as you know, who cares what you guys do, you know, we can of july and you, you can achieve just anything except propaganda. except those of you know, the conduct engine of fake shim at if random selections resume changes all over the world. we can de la to so i think i'm not sure that the west basically, you know, they are sending the right message all over the world. the teaching people and cynicism which in out rather than go cut grading and this is very disturbing. so they might, is succeeded in the short term of keeping germany down and benefit in oil companies . but in the long term it looks very as well. he said, what's the pipeline story is very interesting. first of all, we'll probably never know why how it happened because no and is particularly

interested other than the russians in trying to find out what happened. but i do, i'd like to point out washington, never the last new cycle has been very quiet about whose fault it is. that's really unusual. considering everything is rushes fault these a but ted then people, there are those in europe like the polls like the baltics. they don't want to have any relationship with russia. well that's basically coming true right now. there won't be one, but there's a coffee up to that. then brush is not going to have a relationship with the west. then russia is going to set its own security terms, hence the induction of these provinces of ukraine into russia. further, others could join it. odessa comes to mind here. so they don't really have to care what the west care, what they think about it. they do have to worry about how they react militarily, but i mean, russia is, can do it. what would needs to do unilaterally based on its own needs. kev is not a reliable interlocutor. and obviously, nato is hostile. go ahead,

ted. here this is all the inevitable consequence of not dissolving nato back in 1990 after it's reason for existence, right, nation. and we've seen over the years that there been a chance to negotiate a better balance between europe and is american sort of big brother and, and weapons provider on the one hand in russia on the other. and that's totally gone downhill since at least the time the bladder improvement took over is as president the 1st time around. and what we've seen recently is just an astonishing series of actions. and i wouldn't mind taking a 2nd to detail them. you've got the provision of advanced ship missiles and guidance they are from the training, therefore, from nato to the ukrainians, to use against rushing into radiation. metals that haven't been shared outside of

nato. as far as i can tell you got a hearing of intelligence for the use in the assassination in the field of rush and general officers. you've got to use a very high guided missile which is accurate and supposedly do within one meter after flying for 300 kilometers to assassinate ukrainian politician hotel. and there happened by the way to be an rti crew right next door to survive check, but only just and finally, got the sabotage of the screen pipelines. let's turn this around and imagine that any one of these things happened to be us. there be hesitating and declaring war yet, well, you bring up the most important point. let me go to michael to kind of flesh this out here because i think, you know, we all know that on friday, let me pose, you will make a public address. it's highly anticipated considering the events that have been happening. i tend to think my crystal ball reading my tea leaves here. he's going

to, he may decide to declare that the us and nato were belligerents in the conflict and ukraine. and that has huge, huge call implications. michael. no, i to, i absolutely agree. we gotta, we're an uncharted waters right now. this is this, this is a and an event that we're seeing a series of events that we're seeing, that there are almost out of control. there's no, there's nobody in this, no leadership, everyone is reacting at this point and it's going to create havoc and it's going to get worse, and i think, and i it see the russians intensifying. i would not doubt that mr. brewton will not only declare nato and us as belligerence, but also try to maybe even consider sc severin diplomatic relations because the blowing up of their pipeline in effect was an act of war. so i think the and i and michael and michael, they can add to that. it is

a declaration of war. the way i look at it. but michael, importantly also civilian infrastructure is no longer, you know, it's not no longer for bowden. they've sent that message. ok, vladimir, you are not in your head an agreement. go ahead. yeah, i think it's a, it's opens up under a box if you wish. and i think i went to, to join to this boy or just said that it wasn't. and there's a kind of a reticent about, you know, blame in russia, but also simultaneously what a here that right away in the region companies and that region government norwegian, represent there, say we are watching for our pipeline. and we are preparing all the forces of nature to defend it. so why, why are they saying that? it means like they, they, they afraid like the answer back that they did something, and now there's a watch out. we're gonna defend our pipeline. so this is, this is a very uncharted territories and i think it's a short termism. ultimately, i have a feeling that, you know, they sort of fernanda and, you know, join, you know,

this guy's company was, it was like really a decisive chest move. so i think neither decided to have them move, but i think how it's going to play out eventually between the us in a debate with germany. it's a known and i think, i'm not sure from what we've seen so far from western leadership that they actually, you know, consider all the options, all the variance. you know, i don't think that, you know, they have stupid people, but they might have people like short term people who sometimes base their decisions on their other kind of false information which they get from keep government, which allows you to rate. so they might base it on, on the fold your premise, what vladimir of a faulty narratives create faulty policy outcomes. we're seeing this right in real time here. gentlemen, i'm going to jump in here. we're going to go to a short break. and after that short break, we'll continue our discussion on the events in ukraine st with

ah, right, well, never be a victory for russia. wait, we shall see what you still wait unless you lay newton. i don't wish to locate me. crane war is a proxy war. this is a war between russia and the united states. muslim are made, it comes to not shooting then in carbon dioxide. america forces are in, you're not in europe to gauge in conflict of russia for use. the american forces are here and defend nato ally weapons that nato escalates even more than the special military operation become a war. when you put bells have so that will say yes or no, that doesn't is my dog. i see it. i see your to us. thank you. custody of go to me

live, so i use please be sure we can do stuff to with almost them. let's see where you live. only the still foolish that are in your sewage there. i see the girl whose mom, when i was showing wrong, when i was just a shave out, the same becomes the advocate an engagement equals betrayal. when so many find themselves worlds apart, we choose to look for common ground. a

welcome back to cross stock where all things are considered on peter level. to remind you we're discussing events in ukraine. ah ok. let's go back to the 10s mania i want to. i want to flush out something you said earlier about the intelligence assistance ukraine by nato countries. i think that you know, with the pipeline incident that the sabotaged there in your mind as a former form of foreign service officer. would you be surprised, for example, that suddenly nato satellite started dropping out of the sky. my, this is, this is very, very, an important element of ukraine. some defense posture right now, offensive posture, considering most analysts, military people have told me that the ukrainian army was destroyed during the summer. so in every single way russia is fighting nato. so why should those

satellites stay in the sky? ted? well, my only answer would be sort of a prayerful hope to recruit and world war 3 here. but unfortunately, chips are chad is an entirely legitimate tactic in a situation like this, you know, with civilian infrastructure as you say, destroyer for that matter. the civilian hotel that was targeted by, you know, a guided missile, forgot for an assassination of one person. talk about overkill. i someone's got to be rational here. someone's got to be reasonable, but we can't keep expecting russia to be that someone all the time without some kind of reciprocation. and as you noted earlier, it's, it's as though there's been a deliverer, bernie of the bridges, so that there's no going back. and no one wants in washington, it seems in nato capitals. no one wants the possibility,

a real negotiations for some kind of least bad alternative lasting piece. yeah, well that's because they've created this rhetorical environment where you can't take a word back. you can't, because if you're reasonable, that's appeasement. that's munich. ok. they're in a trap. there are no linguistic mind trap. they can't get out of michael. we have to talk about these a republics joining russia because they will become russian soil sovereign. and the russians have made it very clear. this isn't a bluff. now this is the next stage, and we're in the most dangerous stage of all, because russia will defend these, these new russian republics. go ahead, michael. no, absolutely i. i fully anticipate that happening and that's, that's one of the reasons why there was an effort to bring them immediately into the rush russian federation and to, and it's basically a red line for

a ukraine you, if you start showing them again, we're gonna attack and i and i anticipate that russian attacks will occur more, more, a, in a much more definite way. and particularly as window reproaches. and i also see greater cyber attacks to get at the point that you were talking about earlier, not only against the, the, the ukrainians and their ability to communicate, but also against the west. generally, i think there may be actually a severance, a 7 in of communications in some respects between russia and let's say washington itself, breaking up potential diplomatic relations. now this thing could escalate very, very rapidly and it will easily get out of control. but the, the, the, the whole, the whole notion of, of, of ukraine attacking the provinces now are going to be very, very dire. if,

if they go ahead and do something like that. and, and i then see attacks on the leadership positions and the command control areas. unlike what we've seen before, that is exactly a vladimir, you know, he's in, i mean, from where i am here in moscow is i have to admit a level of frustration. it looks like the russian military is fighting with one arm tie behind its back. i mean, a care of is in one piece. layer, command and control is in one piece of the have a hotel, men trail and poland. i mean, you know, i, hey, at what point does it say enough is enough. we know we're all the entry points are we know we can see everything going on. and hey, look, we'll give you 30 minutes to clear your guys because the missiles are coming in and they're going to destroy everything coming across the border because they can see it. go ahead vladimir. yeah, i think this is veronda and it's joining of this for, for the 6 are very, very important. and they important primarily, you know,

for domestic russian audience. because, you know, let's not forget the russians unbelievable to portray orgy in the winter. all this, you know, you know, particular the wars against a point on and he's there and this and that. so now, you know, it's not like, you know, we have to fight in a need somewhere in the ukraine. and then there is of those arguments. nathan defense, a defense helpless grade. now what ration bob will see is this in a door and the grain and others i actually taken in invading and warming, and destroying russian dead is good. so that will definitely a big impact, beth. and i think we were talking about, you know, waking up a bear, and i think the russians for the country for their, for the friends of the land, they do anything, you know, and they do much more than the western us or americans or anyone because americans are not rated americans are coming to russia during the week and i said, we'll fight back with all the have. so i think it's a very,

very dangerous game. and i think public, again, when there is like, you know, something happening, it would be on the agreement that is already maybe a rational public, which is a lot left and send in bomb bomb stew. you know, to v o key of or something. but if you ration did it, or is it again and again again, then by the giant outcry, let's keep them back and then i don't know, you know, who will benefit from it? you know, ted in, are they the memory of the 2nd world war and the west is dimmed. there's a lot of revisionism going on. um, but what happened in june 1941 is seared into the memory, the consciousness of every russian. and they have vowed never to let that happen again. that's why i'm agreeing with what. but vladimir had to say, this is visceral for them. victory day is the most sacred day in the calendar. the west doesn't seem to get that 10. we don't study history anymore. there

we give it up for watching the car dash, and it's quite frankly, there is no communal memory because that generation passed away. we think we understand what happened because we've seen documentaries on tv or cbs or whatever entertainment channel happens to be pretending to be a history channel. but it's not the same thing, not the blood and soil mixed together the way there was in different soviet territory and certainly in russia. so you're absolutely right. there's a huge balance of memory here in a grievance having to do with in day and, and i don't see a way forward militarily for the west other than continuing to 2 of the seemly expensive materials into ukrainian hands. and they're going faster than the west can provide them as far as i felt. so at some point there's going to be a crisis supply charity, if you will. i think, you know,

persons are going to start being nipped closed, especially as you mentioned before when the cold winter sets in. so i don't see a good way forward here is in terms of continuing on but, but now the bridges have been burned, nor do i see a way back towards diplomacy. i do actually, i have to completely agree with you michael. i've over the last couple of weeks i had this habit of asking a question because i'd like it because it brings out different responses. so it's your turn to answer this one who's got the clocks and who's got the time in this conflict. go ahead at this point, i think russia does. i said which ways both, both are what one of the other the clock in. what was the other one, like clock in time. i got the clock who's got the time. i think he, i think russia has both, it can, it can, it can hold out for as long as it can, the united states is up against

a very serious selection coming up. the people don't like this, shoot this war and, and they have other things on their mind. and the, and the europeans are getting fed up. and, and they're, and they're, they're seeing that this is getting them know where you got protests going on in germany now. and all that russia has to do is wait it out and, and it's going to be, it will, i think the europeans are gonna ultimately recoil from all of this and, and finally say enough it in spite of the fact that that victoria newland and company are back there, pushing, pushing, pushing, but at some point they're going to see that this is not benefiting them. they're going to have are very harsh winter. and, and the russians have been through it all before they can do it again. i think that hardship that you talk about is probably genetic and in the rush in the rush. and yeah, i mean, it's one of the things you learned that living among russians, that there is a high level of stoicism. they're very stoic when it gets there. when you're up

against the wall, they're very stoic and they, they work in unison. other than that they never do. but when, when they, when they're threatened, they come together and, and something, something to watch. well vladimir a, the, well, the, the idea of that, the brush, the idea of having regime change in russia, which is ridiculous here. but i, i do foresee a regime change in berlin. i think sergeant schultz will be sent packing. and his coalition very soon. yeah, i did say that sergeant schultz. go ahead. vladimir. that's absolutely the case. i think interactions under pressure a get together. so even if there be like a, you know, the people talk about the resume change, or you'll be like absolutely topher guy. if there is some changes, russia, which will, it would be i the number of notes of the guy. but in terms of germany in england, you know, they don't have time. she brought this the radia up to like one month in the office, or the least ross is doing

a bungalow economy. germany is not going to do well. well, you know what i, what i want to stress is that, yes, those to no history. those been, all russians know that they can persevere. but i think western calculations are it was based on some is, were said, falls, georgia. they get some strange that g 6 which tells them that rational economies week doesn't, don't have. this wasn't on the earlier that your grand send this information again to washington say yes, yes, yes, we are winning rations are collapsing, they are running out of ammunition there. i'm out of this equipment. so this idea that i saw the running out, it's very, very nice, very faulty, but i think you know, so in other words, it also does have diamond logan a hand. but the west actually thinks that we do. and that's where the danger a come to the fight with a gun, unload it and think it's loaded as opposed to your one and what will happen. but i think, well, you know, time will tell, of course, you know, well, time, wow,

but i'm, i'm, i'm, i'm, i'm protecting that lives trust will be looking for political asylum in care of before the end of the winter. that's my prediction. it's all the time we have gentlemen many, thanks some i get some province washington and intends mania. and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at our dc and next time. remember cross talk with a in a this is shakira. shorter went in and i'm matching this. i went back a national z. m

a with natalie muscle is on you know she kitty doesn't being in the green shield on a this is ashley of a b. c. wanted to work with you, but you're not looking for the chain of trying to know for the right to do that. and then we got that with

a region as independent. this come later on friday, the in these areas and done by the public, the russia following a referendum for voters for him as a believe police, implying usps, sabotage of the notes. the pipeline was russia claims the destruction of increasing supply of liquefied natural gas. a is trying to find money to, to develop its own infrastructure while facing cone in you.