[000:00:00;00] ah ah with only walking towards the park general like to say that the best teacher of military strategy is in fact war as costly and cruel as it may be in dispos allusions and

brings everyone in contact with reality. what have been the tactical and strategic license of the ukranian conflict so far, both with region and for the world. to discuss that i'm now joined by cash sharma, retired lieutenant general of the indian army undistinguished fellow at the the, the international foundation. but in general is great, pleasure, great honor for me to talk to you. thank you very much for your time. thank you very much for inviting me or you know, i've been interviewing a lot of indian yes lately. and one of the things that i was struck by is 1st the amount of attention that the indian observers and eastern observers in general, up paying to this conflict. and 2nd of all, is this very detailed, cold blooded cool. had it analysis, which is quite different from all this emotional moralizing that is more typical of the western observers, i think. do you think that the indians in particular,

or is an observers in general approach war and this conflict differently? thank you to the fact of the matter is that it's a war b analyze all walls like this. you would have analyzed rockwall roku, similar leaving the bottom of that fiber, iraq water. so each of the water, the laser, i love to love the best, but this is a need to be conventional. lots and lots of people was he mentioned, most of it won't happen again. but then you see a conventional war of this guy, and i'm, this will come bad this when the war about this is a much i, as in war, and this is like super bob and more than a shot. so one was expecting of kind of warfare. we just mainly listen of modern warfare and all future forces are characterized will become x rays. and so that's the last name for us to study the water. now one of the things that i think has

been the feature of discussions about conflict over the last couple of years is the presumption that all wars from now on will be proxy wars or some sort of hybrid force that this kinetic 5 between the forces is no longer a feature of reality. and yes, as you point out in your articles, the warning ukraine showed that conventional war is to very much a, you know, the presence, in what way do you think conventional war has changed because it's both a conventional conflict and to some extent and more than conflict show was a messy affairs, all was a miss your friends, and you can all get into one or one wouldn't turn out to be. in fact, nobody definition of the word waters didn't talk about the law, then it was an economic was an all day. it was nice talking what,

what are we talking about the state to state conferences, changing, changing a big way in manners of non contacts was or non kinetic was. this turned out to be many words together. she's the best to come out with them. i don't know what to do them in a while, but this gun been all together because there was in by opened in a course. she didn't get it on one side. there was a lot that we get on site. there was a rough or a convention or was we get it all fronts in the same context. so they were $23.00 was be bought out in different bennett art together, so they've been don't different. listen, you mentioned that the anywhere is usually between 2 immediate sides and we have the russian graham here. but i think you would agree with me that the number of participants, croxley participants in the, in the war is much larger. and fact, i think what the russians have been trying to do,

the russian leadership has been trying to do over the last couple of weeks and months with our statement is to sort of call the american bluff of portraying themselves as not being participant to this conflict. in fact, and both of his defense ministers show that we think that they see that this conflict as a direct confrontation between russia and major. do you think the russians of the time being have been successful in turning what americans want to be a proxy war, into a war where all the participants are manifested? now if i go back to this with his doctor and go back, a group of them will be happened. and subsequently as even progress for the you could, indians were training, then trained well and modern was nice by the west. nato, especially in the course of about 6 to 7 years when the war commenced, even before the mobilization has been commenced. and you should be,

one will be made that the world expectations that this one, why not to be it might be mobilize ation that the russians that a big big society would fizzle out and off for some kind of wash and be but know when the, what happened initially, certainly it was a water between the show and grain time as possible, i think. and where you see the statement of the speech of the still put in and on 28th of september, he says that the water in oper, she against the gender. well, when you talk about water or it cannot mix of sanctions, new one of the position of mommy to the issue of the dinner, murphy peters was on. so while you gone state, the only award between the jupiter, because one way, so it's not a war only between ukraine and, and russia. that's the one on the front. yes. but does, did,

is immense amount of roxy support that comes into your green, which actually facilitates the big one. when you take a step back into any war, steven a little by john an, a renewal for 2 years ago. there was a board been get it out by by confused some old state. so the proxy can please give morgan was supporting that, but they didn't to hide the war, but it's going to general, i think there is a difference between supporting various parties because you want to achieve your local interest and using a countries specifically to attack your adversary. where the chicken, where did they act, in this case, when, when we look at the, you know, this whole balance of power between russia and the west side of the fact that my thought is that the initiative to commence the war was taken by the, you know, right,

it's but they wanted water and you got one by this florida wall. so the initiative was taken by the shop and subsequently the list here invest, you know, it was not that those to the plan support, but i agree with you today. if that has been a change in be, was the question on the, on the line, the door or the front line, it is dumb because of the assistant boy by the best of the ways we all knew the caliber that you've been flossing as the one without the support of the best it would have been well nigh impossible for you to stand before the mice of the machine. and now i know that the indians, i appreciate russian literature. so i will allow myself to call one of the classical russian writers on some check of who wrote once that if a gone is on the war in the opening scene, it is supposed to fire towards the end, the tension when russia and nature have been going on for quite some time in russia

has been signaling its extreme displeasure with major expansion plans for quite some time. and yet, for some reason, i think that there was a deep belief in the west that russia would not act and would not use military force to defend what it sees as the strategic interest. i wonder why is that, why is there so much a surprise in the west that russia would command these military operations. after all the efforts diplomatic efforts to come to some sort of negotiated agreement with the west regarding ukraine and the, regarding the expansion of nato failed. so the issue comes up is what does exist and show crisis. when a nation says that i'm having existential crisis, the show was always a stepping this obvious and that the need to was been. so we'll shape or a water. and many of the medical also the movie and read the singers and dogs and all those who have stated that they go, well, it's not good morgan,

who in this kind of but it was a show the show is hands against you. so this thing was coming for last with somebody from 2803. it's not that it suddenly sprung up on one frame big. but having said that, there is a bit. so conventional wars that's been going across the word who wants to conventional war going back 219291915. so we were not expecting this war to be was not expecting a walk to begin with. but i want to ask you as, as a person who has deepest respect for the military strategy, and this is the, are, this is the science, this is, you know, war and the end of the day, something that people study that they strategize about. do you think russia had any other means of defending what is deemed as strategic interests? and i think you would agree with me that you know, not having and needed to close is in the strategic interest fashion. most of the

people, most of the military analysts, i talked to agree even if they don't like, put in deed russia, have any other means at his disposal to defend its interest and to re power major from encroaching ever closer towards the borders. b. oh, was wondering, community have seen and then the gross was a pattern banker and we are the 1st ones to stay warm or not. so really no one option to avoid water must be taken away to work if it is unavoidable, naturally. so you don't see that that, you know, all option had been tried and maybe even by the russians before they commenced. what i don't think that would be talking, did the defendant be more direct and specific? what else could russia have done? and i ask you, in good faith as somebody who has, you know, good will both to ukrainians and so the russians. so we have best relation to,

i think, i mean, we have a solution that we missed to have them to the one. but, you know, see, look at the old biplanes of the dependence of ukraine has on from brother. totally . so if you wanted to what you have done, who i've done some odd one large thing, one would have been done by a plain sort of ukraine on you would have said will give you a block. you see, lexi know, instead of actually launching offensive, you could have found many other methods of who are seeing the nation. no, get on to your site, then fire the 1st fuck the done and find a wallet, but at least in a general it wasn't. i understand that the using economic mechanisms would have saved many lives, but, you know, at the same time, there was information i think, now proven that the west was actively militarize and ukraine. especially in the early, not only from from 2014, but especially in the early,

20012002021022 in that was happening in your disputed border areas. wouldn't the indian army also respond through economic measures? would you think seriously about using your military potential? no, we know, even though the united states is supported by this time, who is a belligerent against us, will have any long thank this as the is the best, the month of september this year. so, you know, which of course be able to, the fact is that is that the neighbors are being addressed in the spinal. that doesn't tell us to go and judge across the water, them too big a fight with pakistan. despite the fact that we know that their group proxies to work across to a one to speed. but then we're not itching, fortified running for a fight, but we are prepared for it. we have the bad to do the best possible. so there is

a that there is a, but if one isn't for a one of them did of the sure wait for, i would still like going to say that if there are opportunities available and then what is what happens or why not see today, europe is split into many parts, even today and in dealing with the situation. and you can't and you have many whites coming off. i'm sure we would have a good amount of business to be been will europe, which show us going a way, but those that don't get onto a denial of these information. there's been macros that nipple was blended wrong, so you know, it was wise. let's continue the discussion after a very, very short break that you ah hm.

so what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have. it's crazy confrontation, let it be an arms. race is often very dramatic, development only personally and getting to resist. i don't see how that strategy will be successful, very critical time time to sit down and talk with her. welcome. come in. well, that part with erica sharma retired lieutenant general of the indian army and distinguished fellow at the canada international foundation lieutenant general.

before a. 5 a break we were talking about how these more could have been avoided, but it's already a reality. yeah. have to deal with it as it is. i'm sure you know that a few days ago the russian president announced partial, the litigation which cost a lot of the ease the russian society, which i'm up until recently. i had followed this conflict from the television screen. now it has to draw the reservists into the field and you know, many people while supporting after decisions of the government feel quite differently about it when they have to contribute to that with that own effort. so i wonder how do you think that move to join more reserve is that we are talking about the 100000 people. how do you think it will change the dynamics of the way? this is an interesting thing. firstly, i believe that there was see the strategic miscalculations of by the russian on

what we call it. because even then the war was misunderstood, defined, watson, that is possible, misunderstood the kind of support and they go, students will come and some of the many other issues of the, the best. now i am getting anxious on the point of more redundant reaching. so one showed that few of this is the mobile edition that's been ordered on september, just see 100000. i saw this and taken the point of motor don't, is the, the friend of being get into mobilize ation band always ends. in this scenario based on beginning of the because miscalculation was the point was that the russian forces brought to bear against you. claim people were studying the war said that the quantum of hosted in the wanted ross and bella roost are against ballad, whose order is he was to me, was grossly insufficient for both of us. so that is why there was what those

switching meant by being that it out from the rest of the street of them the street from bella luce, on to the gone bassetti. i've done about it yet. this is not all, such in 820052000 kilometer fund, perio, mobilize, ition, always having said that there are many negative negatives. are rid of the men bar, could be use mostly what one of the meant by going to come from that is that those people who are off construction and are these and they will join it. so the quality of wants to action and how soon will they come? i think, and they are saying that the the sions are attempting to freeze the line. so do you find the lines of contact and with this it is before the windows and so they're, they're not even good forces to bring them out. some kind of freezing of lines, which are now actually shifting too much. well,

this is actually what i heard from some of the russian analysts as well that these new troops will be deployed. not so much as frontline soldiers, but rather as sort of proxy border guards that we'll have to take care of this expanding territory. and we are talking about 100000 square kilometers where you know, for regions of your brain where the referendum for joining russia taking place this very minute as, as it was. yeah. i wondered, what do you think will be the significance of these potential changes of borders in this entire conflict? i mean, this is not a confirmed decision yet, but judging from preliminary figures, the overwhelming majority of people who still leave in those territories, they wanna join russia. so if that can be happens, what do you think that would mean for the trajectory of the conflict? so if this for if that a friend them base place and people, i'm not a to the venturing into

a window of them at all since the indians also defended based on so is getting so he does lean more. yeah. i don't see an end to this one. maybe the water, we have the fire, but that hard make crimea or guy me. i was taken over the discussion, but the guy, me always bank good in the finance and all the same for me i will be working. so all the issues are all issues of, of the voters are menu of all. all these issues will be me in the for the, in this on back for a very long time to come. this is not n d even been as a, but it's not one who and as our white on the list and agree with me. there's always pros and cons and there is no perfect strategy for decision making, especially when, when you deal with a condo complex. but what i'm hearing from against some of the russian analysts is

that when taking these decisions to support the referenda, i didn't put in also had the military sort of strategy in mind in the sense that even those territories, those searches are now under constant bombardment. by western and especially american weapons, high precision weapons, but considered by russia as, regardless of whether there was recognize, it was not themselves as part of its own territories. it was used in different strategies, would use different weapons to just found the do you think that sounds in the russian position is likely to change western calculus or do you think it was some of the weapons sponsors of the conflict are going to also seeks to up the ante. i don't see any thing coming from the best. see, the russian friend was heavy, automobile bombardment, fire par historically. that was part of the about the they didn't do the same thing

and they didn't. they didn't do it. and it did. so me did, but they did this in that you. so there is a difference. a was a part of the kind of 55 that the best as to the into you pinions. i don't think they. ready will end up so this is this line 9 of them when they give it that will build again, it says despite what they base and whatever. and they will also be people behind to see the column list. and you know, all these private military companies will be on simply nit picking and targeting. it is like what happened to me. i and they are so i don't see any kind of the sort of situation we need to get us or why i think we are reaching the point. now, you mentioned people behind the scenes. ukrainian nationalists have historically

been a raise, a traditional part isn't guerrilla warfare. even joseph stalin, back in the fifty's with his iron suspected school in the process foolish. we are now seeing, even than that, could dominic literature more and more support from western an american forest with these kind of insurgency. how do you think russia should address it as, as a threat? again, not from a moral perspective, but from strategic and tactical perspective. she did, i will get on with the, you know, it will become, you know, it was a full time agency. was sort of this issues off on spent in so many of them the new because the population even though in the print them this or and if it comes off because of the size, they will be substantial population. this been not be in the list. everybody is not going to believe that because, i mean if you look at their figures for the referenda, the support is overwhelming. and again the crimea,

and example. sure there were some people who were not very happy with the russians coming in. but the overwhelming majority of people in crimea supported it and crimea by and large, but it's been pretty peaceful since 2014, when it changes national affiliation. so i see a streak of nationalism which was as not appreciated even before the water began. so that streak of nationalism and you, you clearly and despite the fact that they were new and all these and all that, those be all be over, you know, all the new, not the same years back. but having said that, they would be a person bit of people who wouldn't target the depth and the lines of communication, so you have to stablish good. now the, the armed forces and i've done themselves. that's kind of thing like what,

who did is i'm going to started one time created lead to the areas where they would be protection the system, a new system. it will have wall when it is all right, otherwise even one blast takes this. what's the issue into a back burner? you mentioned before that there is a difference in which a war the thought performed. and if you actually look at the way the russians conducted the operation, a rather slow movement, they try to avoid any urban warfare. they didn't bomb cds like, for example, them hurt and didn't even do russian deed in, in gauze and the, during the 2nd year or so, there was a different approach towards, i think, both, you know, russian own military forces and the local populations. do you think that says something, do you think that perhaps explains why the, initially, the russian didn't have these, you know, great success that you and others were expecting simply because they decided that

they will take it as low as it needs to be. for the sake of, you know, 1st of all protected people, but also making this success more lasting. they haven't done it, but this is the kind of bond that was made when they didn't do it. they didn't do it in the, in, on the give side of it when they did it, and many of them done it. this is a mass destruction in the areas of hans because, and all the fire i wanted was nuanced. don't don't beat a typical force or sports on horseback. there's a different thing the keeps. i was watching that they didn't break s and have some they haven't on the side with. i mean there has been, have been since yesterday. all was a part of the friend was looking for a different man and from various i'm sick don't really and middle study each one of different. i think that has met it in your argument. said that there was

a dying down of the military and by the political milestone in how the was before. and that's one of these amazing lunney points that i also needed somebody is in the middle learning point as to the minute to start the season. now be in, by the want to go to my so this will be a bus. yeah. at least i mean i want to ask you one last question. me, you mentioned the, the point of no return a couple of times and i think i would, i would even say that we have reached it already. because referenda again, regardless of whether they're west or the world recognizes them are reversible. you know, the rush is not going. busy to turn and walk back away from that, but you can also argue that they present an opportunity for all besides to sort of count their loss is caught their future losses and decide on what they're going to do next. is it likely at this point, do you think there will be

a sobering moment for all the sides involved to try to assess the situation and perhaps change that strategy? if that happens, it would be good, but i don't foresee rep wasn't opinion of it. i don't foresee because whatever you might say ukrainian being that the standard reason or glass or, i mean the auto glass if i had some will, is not business. and neither is of course, you know, believe it or not is nice with what he so the fact is that they was the art that it has been boss. it grew rankel in the mind. euclidean population, the government, all that it good. see ok. what is done is done? no, it won't happen. it doesn't happen. you will have any loss of that if the, whatever it is ankles or you know, this is, are well let you know, generally we have to leave it there. thank you very much for sharing your thoughts in such a direct way. thank you for watching hope to hear again next week on was apart.

ah, a ah, ah, who is the aggressor today? i'm authorizing the additional strong sanctions. today russia is the country with the most sanctions imposed against it. a number that's constantly growing. i think your future look almost a bill in your city, most of mine or wish you were banding all imports of russian oil and gas news. i know they pay over

with regard to joe by imposing these sanctions on russia has destroyed the american economy. so there's your boomerang self. ah, and the stories that shape the weak, the dumbass republics on that her so rosier regions celebrate some historic moment there. vladimir putin inside the cree on the recession to russia after after residence votes overwhelmingly, in favor of the change. but voting wasn't easy that territories faced relentless shelling purportedly by ukrainian forces during the referendum process on joining the russian federal. also ahead in the english saxons have not had enough with their sanctions. they've moved on to diversion. the russian