in the country and the wider sal region. in recent years, in burkina faso alone, thousands of people have been killed on nearly 2000000 people displaced from their homes since 2015 or i time for a sunday visit to the world's apart studios next. find out who accelerate. i was in the hot seat today, right ahead. this is art with with on the welcome to was the part generally like to say that the best teacher of military strategy is in fact, war as costly and cruel as it may be in dispos allusions and brings everyone in

contact with reality. what have been the tactical and strategic license of the ukranian conflict so far, both with region and for the world of to discuss that i'm now joined by rob cash sharma, retired lieutenant general of the indian army undistinguished fellow at the music amanda international foundation. but in general is great, pleasure, great honor for me to talk to you. thank you very much for your time. thank you very much. my and my team here that, you know, i've been interviewing a lot of indian yes lately. and one of the things that i was struck by is 1st the amount of attention that the indian observers and eastern observers in general, up paying to this conflict. and 2nd of all, is this very detailed, cold blooded cool hatted analysis, which is quite different from all this emotional moralizing that is more typical of the western observers. i think. do you think that the indians in particular,

or isn't observers in general approach war and this conflict differently? thank you. the fact of the matter is that it's war and be analyze all was like this, you would have analyzed. iraq was also similar, leaving the iraq was so each of the what is it and laser to none the best. but this is a need to be conventional. lots and lots of people say conventional most of that won't happen again. but then you see a convention or more of this guy, and i'm, this will come bad this when the car about this is a much i, as in war, and this is a super bob and more of the show. so one was 16 of kind of warfare b, b, just mainly listen of modern warfare and whole future was, is, are going to raise a will because x rays. and so that's the last name for us to study the water. now

one of the things that i think has been the feature of discussions about conflict over the last couple of years is the presumption that all works from now on will be proxy wars or some sort of hybrid words that this kinetic 5 between the forces is no longer a feature all of reality. and yes, as you point out in your articles, the warning ukraine showed that conventional war is to very much a, you know, the presence, in what way do you think conventional war has changed because it's both a conventional conflict and to some extent and more than conflict show was a messy affairs, all was a messy effect, and you can all get into one or one wouldn't turn out to be in fact, to read the position of the word waters. talk about the law then put it because it was an economic was in all was in the top is what,

what are we talking about the state to state countryside changing, changing in a big way in manners of non contacts was for non kinetic was this turned out to be many was together. she's the investors come out with the money. but when i walk with this gun, been all together because there was in my opened in a course, she didn't get it on one side. there was a lot that we get on site. there was a rough or a convention or what we get it all fronts in the same context. so they were $23.00 was be bought out in different bennett art together. so they've been don't different. listen, you mentioned that the anywhere is usually between 2 immediate sides and we have the russian graham here. but i think you would agree with me that the number of participants, croxley participants in the, in the war is much larger. and fact,

i think what the russians have been trying to do, the russian leadership has been trying to do over the last couple of weeks and months with our statement is to sort of call the american blood of portraying themselves as not being participant to this conflict. in fact, and both of his defense ministers show that we think that they see that this conflict as a direct confrontation between russia and major. do you think the russians of the time being have been successful in turning what americans want to be a proxy war, into a war where all the participants are manifested? now if i go back to this with his doctor and go back, will be happened. and subsequently as even progress for the you could, indians were training, then trained well and modern was nice by the west, nato, especially in the cost of about 6 to 7 years when the war commenced. even before

the mobilization has been commenced. and you should be, one will be made that the world expectations that is one why not back to the it might, the mobilize ation that the russians that the big big society would fizzle out and off for some kind of wash and be but know when the what happened initially? certainly it was a water between the show and grain. time as possible. i think where you see the statement of the speech of the still put in and on 28th of september, he says that the water against the gender. well, when you talk about water or it cannot mix of sanctions, new one of the position, i think mommy to the issue of the dinner, murphy peters was on. so while you're gone, said the only award between the jupiter because was wasted. so it's not a war only between ukraine and,

and russia. that's the one on the front. yes. but does that is immense amount of proxy support that comes into your green, which actually facilitates the big one. when you take a step back into any war, steven a little by john and renew for 2 years ago, there was a board been get it out by by confused some outside. so the proxy can please give morgan was supporting the the didn't to hide the war. but let's general, i think there is a difference between supporting various parties because you want to achieve your local interest and using a country specifically to attack your adversary. whereas the chicken, the where did the act in this case, when, when we look at the, you know, this whole balance of power between russia and the west side of the fact that my goal is that the initiative to commence the one will stick them by the you know,

right, it's, but they wanted water, you got one by this florida wall. so the initiative was taken by the shop. and when the, the, this year, you know, it was not that those to the plan support. but i agree with you today. if that has been the change in be, was the question on the, on the line, the door or the front line, it is done because of the assistant boy by the best of the ways we all knew the caliber you've been forced to add the one without the support of the best it would have been well nigh impossible for you to stand before the might of the machine. and now i know that the indians, i appreciate russian literature. so i will allow myself to call one of the classical russian writers and check of who wrote once that if a gun is on the war in the opening scene, it is supposed to fire towards the end,

the tension in russia and may, to having going on for quite some time and russia has been signaling it's extreme displeasure resume their expansion plans for quite some time. and yet, for some reason, i think there was a deep belief from the west that russia would not act and would not use military force to defend what it sees as strategic interest. i wonder why is that, why is there so much surprising was that russia would commands these military operation after all the efforts diplomatic efforts to come to some sort of negotiated agreement with the west regarding ukraine and the, regarding the expansion of nato failed. so the issue comes up is, what is a sin shall crisis when a nation says that i'm having existence, you guys was always stating this obvious. and that the need to has been we'll see more of water in many of the american. also the re and rigorous enjoy at

dawn and all those who have stated that they do not get more than 2 into this kind of but it was to show it has against. so this thing was coming for last several $1000.00. not that it's suddenly sprung up on one fine day. but having said that, there is a bit. so conventional rewards that's been going of growth in the word wants a conventional war. going back 219291915. so we were not expecting this war to be, was not expecting a walk to begin with. but i want to ask you as, as a person who has deepest respect for the military strategy, and this is the, are, this is the science, this is, you know, war at the end of the day, something that people study that they strategize about. do you think russia had any other means of defending? what in dean's is a strategic interest and i think you would agree with me that you know,

not having and needed to close is in the strategic interest fashion. most of the people, most of the military analysts i talk to and really even if they don't like, put in deep rush or have any other means that it's disposal to define interest and to rip out later from encroaching ever closer towards the borders. b, o was full during community have seen, and then the gross was a pattern banker. and we are the 1st ones to stay warm or not. so every, no one option to avoid water must be taken away to work if it is unavoidable, naturally. so you don't see that that, you know, all option had been tried and i was even by the russians before they commenced. what i don't think that would be talking did the defendant be more direct and specific? what else could russia have done? and i asked you in good faith as somebody who has no, you know, good will both to ukrainians and so the russians. so we have best addition. and so

i think, i mean, we have a solution that we missed to have come to the one, but, you know, see, look at the old biplanes and the dependence of ukraine has on i'm from brother. totally. so if you wanted to what you have done, who i've done some odd one large thing, one would have been done to the fireplace that of ukraine on you would have said will give you a block. you see, lexi know, instead of actually launching offensive, you could have found many other methods of who are seeing the nation do get onto your site, then fire the 1st one is done and find a wallet, but at least in a general it wasn't. i understand that the using economic mechanisms would have saved many lives, but, you know, at the same time, there was information i think, now proven that the west was actively militarize and ukraine. especially in the early, not only from from 2014, but especially in the early,

20012002021022 in that was happening in your disputed border areas. wouldn't the indian army also respond through economic measures a would you think seriously about using your military potential? we know, even though the united states is supported, pakistan who is a belligerent against us, will have any long thank this as these that that's the month of september this year . so, you know, which of course be able to, the fact is that is that the neighbors are being addressed in the spinal. that doesn't tell us to go and judge across the waters and they go fight with pakistan, despite the fact that we know that their group proxies to work across to a one to speed. but then we're not itching for a fight running for a fight. but we are prepared for it. we have the bad to do the best possible. so

there is a that there is a, but if one isn't for a one of them that are the sure wait for, i would still like going to say that if there are opportunities available and then what is what happens or why not see today, europe is split into many parts, even today, and in dealing with the situation. and you can't and you have many whites coming off. i am sure we would have a great amount of business to be been will europe, which show us a way, but those don't get onto a denial of these information. but then macros said nicole was been dead not long ago. so you know, there was wife go, let's continue the discussion after a very, very short break. thank you. mm

mm mm. with ah, welcoming. well, the part with sharma retired lieutenant general of the indian army and distinguished fellow at the canada international foundation lesson. and general before a. 5 break, we were talking about how this war could have been avoided,

but it's already a reality. have to deal with it as it is. i'm sure, you know, a few days ago the russian president announced partial mobilization, which caused a lot of them to ease in the russian society, which i'm up until recently had followed this conflict from the television screens . now it has to draw the reservists into the field and you know, many people while supporting abstract decisions of the government feel quite differently about it when they have to contribute to that with that own efforts. so i wonder how do you think that move to join more reserve is that we are talking about the 100000 people. how do you think it will change the dynamics of this conflict? this is an interesting thing. firstly, i believe that there was a fetus strategic miscalculations of by the russian on the political had even then the war was misunderstood. defined, of course, and that is possible,

misunderstood the kind of support and they go, sins will come. and so a provide to the many other issues of the the best. now i am getting anxious on the point of motor don't reach. so one show that you of the is the mobile ation. that has been ordered on the 21st of september. this is 300000. i saw this and taken the point of motor don't is the, the friend of being get into mobilize ation band are always in this scenario right. on beginning of the because miscalculation was, the point was that the russian forces brought to bear against your claim. people were studying the war said that the quantum of was that in the russian bellows or against 2 bedrooms, or if he was so me was grossly insufficient for that stuff. so that is why there was, was switching the man being carried out of the western district. the other district

from ben was on to the don barzyk area. this is not how should you know, 20052000. so i'm with the fund. mobilize ation, always, not every step that there are many negative negatives are really meant to be use what the, what the quality are meant by that is that both people who are construction then all in these and they will join them. so the quality off on scription and how soon will they come? i think andrea saying that the the sions are attempting to freeze the line. so you find the lines of contact and we had this before the when it's been. so they are in a hurry to get forces to bring about some type of freezing of lines, which are now actually shipped. don't much. well, this is actually what i've heard from some of the russian analysts as well, that these neutrals will be deployed. not so much as frontline soldiers,

but rather as sort of proxy border guards that we'll have to take care of this expanding character. and we're talking about 100000 square kilometers where, you know, for regions of your brain where the referenda for joining russia are taking place this, this very minute as, as with i want to do, what do you think will be significance of this potential changes or borders in this entire conflict. i mean, this is not confirmed decision yet, but the judging from preliminary figures, the overwhelming majority of people who are still leaving those territories, they want to join russia. so if that happens, what do you think that would mean for the trajectory of the conflict? so if this for if the defendant takes place and people and i'm not, i could eventually into a window of, in the sense that the indians also defended based also is getting heaters.

the more i don't see an end to this one, maybe the water, we have the fire, but that heart next crimea, or guy me, i was taken over the discussion. but the guy, me always good in the minds of the canadians and all the things will be working. so all the time. the issues are edison or issues of, of the seo or menu of all, all these issues will be me in the, in the, in this, on back for a very long time to come. this is not n d even been as a piece, but it's not going to and as are quite on the list and agree with me, there's always pros and cons and that there is no perfect strategy for decision making, especially when, when you deal with a condo complex, but what i'm hearing from, again, some of the russian analysts is that when taking these decisions to support the

referenda, i didn't put in also had that military sort of strategy in mind in the sense that even those territories, those searches are now under constant bombardment. by western and especially american weapons, high precision weapons, but considered by russia as, regardless of whether there was recognize themselves as part of its own territories . it was used in different strategies, would use different weapons to defend the do you think that sounds in the russian position is likely to change western calculus or do you think it was some of the weapons sponsors of this conflict are going to also seeks to up the ante i don't see any limping coming from the best to see. the russian friend was heavy automobile bombardment, fire par historically. that was part of the adult. the didn't do the same thing and they didn't. they didn't do it and they did. so me did. but they did this in that

you, so there is a difference. a was a part of the kind of 5 bob that the best will be until you pinions. i don't think they. ready will end up so this is this activity 9 of them when they give it that will build again, it says despite what they base and whatever. and they will also be people behind to see the columnist and you know, all these private military companies will be on simply nit picking and targeting. it is like what happened to me. i and they are so i don't see any kind of will be sort of situation and we need to get us on why i think we are reaching the point. now, you mentioned people behind the scenes. ukrainian nationalists have historically venerated traditional parts has no guerrilla warfare. even joseph stalin,

back in the fifty's with his iron suspected, couldn't the process foolish? we are now seeing, even than that, conduct literature more and more support from western and american quarter with these kind of insurgency. how do you think russia should address it as, as a threat? again, not from a moral perspective, but from strategic and tactical perspective. she did, i will get on with the, you know, it will become, you know, it was a full time agency. was sort of this issues off on spent in substances that the member need them to do because the population, even if in the print them this or and if it comes out of the sky, they will be substantial population. this been not be in favor of this. everybody is not going to believe that because i mean if you look at their figures for the referenda, the support is overwhelming and again the crimea and example. sure, there were some people who were not very happy with the russians coming in,

but the overwhelming majority of people in crimea supported it and crimea by and large, but it's a pretty peaceful since 2014, when it changes national affiliation. so i see a streak of nationalism which was as not appreciated even before the water began. so that streak of nationalism in ukrainian nest despite the fact that they were new and all these and all that was b a, b, a 0. but elliot, you know, all these, not the same years back, but he said that be would be a person bit of people who wouldn't target areas and the lines of communication. so you have to stablish good. now, the armed forces that have done themselves, that kind of thing, like what, who did is i'm going to started one time created lead to the areas where they would

be protection the system, a new system make me that it was, it is all right, otherwise even one blast makes, this was the issue into a bad one. now you mentioned before that there is a difference in which a war, the thought form. and if you actually look at the way the russians conducted the operation around this little movement, they tried to avoid any urban warfare and they didn't bomb cds. like for example, them hurt and didn't even do russian deed in, in gauze. and they, during the 2nd year or so, there was a different approach towards, i think, both, you know, russian own military forces and the local population. do you think that something, do you think that perhaps explains why the initially, the russian didn't have these, you know, great success that you and others were expecting simply because they decided that they will take it as low as it needs to be. for the sake of, you know,

1st of all protected people, but also making this success more lasting. they haven't done it, but this is the kind of bond that was made, but they didn't do it. they didn't do it and be in on the give side of it when they did it, and many of them done it. this is a mass destruction in the areas of hans because in all the fire, i wanted to know hans turned out to be a typical force to watch what's on horseback. there's a different thing. the give site was, wasn't as in boy, s and have some they haven't on the side with, i mean there has been, have been since years on all was a part of the friend was living for in different manner than from various on sick don't really. and middle studies, one of different, i think that has met it in your argument, said that there was a dying down of the military and by the political milestone in how the was going to be for. and that's one of these amazing learning points that i also needed somebody

is the media learning point as to the minute to start to do that. now, it didn't by the want to go to mouth. so this will be a bus. yeah. at the time, you know, if i mean, i want to ask you one last question he, you mentioned the, the point of no return a couple of times and i think i would, i would even say that we have reached it already. because referenda, again, regardless of whether the west or the world recognizes them are irreversible. you know, russia is not going to turn and walk back away from that. but you can also argue that they present an opportunity for all the sides to sort of count them. also caught their future losses and decide on what they're going to do next. is it likely at this point, do you think there will be a sobering moment for all the sites involved to try to assess the situation and

perhaps change that strategy? if that happens, it'd be good, but i don't foresee rep wasn't opinion of it. i don't foresee because whatever you might say ukrainian being that the standard be the oral plus or, i mean the auto glass ahead some will is not with the that is of course, you know, believe it or not is good with what he so the fact is that they would think that it has been it going to rank up in the mind euclidean population, the government, but all that good. see ok. what is done is done. no, it won't happen this way. it doesn't happen. you will have any loss of that. if the, whatever it is ankles for the nation. well listen in general, we have to leave it there. thank you very much for sharing your thoughts in such a direct way. thank you for watching hope to hear again next week on was apart. ah

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a ah, in the stories that shape the week that dumbbells republic found that her solomon's upper road here region celebrates on historic movement, vladimir putin signs a decree on there as session to russia after residents vote overwhelmingly in favor of the change also, with the anglo saxons have not had enough with their sanctions. they moved on to diversions. the russian president blames the west for the comprehensive damage done to the nord stream pipelines which supply gas to europe and boys to they may not beneficiary, all the alleged sabotage. also ahead in the program.