costly and cruel as it may be in just those illusions that brings everyone in contact with reality. what have been the tactical and strategic lessons of the ukrainian conflict so far, both for the region and for the world of the discount that i'm now joined by cash charmaya retired lieutenant general of the indian army and distinguished follow at the b would come out of the international foundation, but then in general is great pleasure, great honor for me to talk to you. thank you very much for your time. thank you very much way inviting me. you know, i've been interviewing a lot of indian yes. lately. one of the things that i was struck by is 1st the amount of attention that the indian observers and eastern observers in general, of paying to this conflict. and 2nd of all, is this very detail, cold blooded cool hatted analysis, which is quite different from all this emotional moralizing that is more typical of

the western observers. i think. do you think the indians in particular, or isn't observers in general approach war, this conflict differently? you know, thank you. the fact of the matter is that it's a war and be analyzed. all was like this. we would have analyzed. iraq was also similar, leaving the iraq was so each of the what is it and laser malibu, none the best. but this is a need to be conventional lots and lots of people was he mentioned most of that won't happen again. but then you see a conventional war of this guy, and i'm, this will come bad this when the war, no more about this is a much higher skin war. and this did is super bought in more than a shot. so one was expecting of a kind of warfare just mainly listen of modern warfare and all future forces are characterized will be x rays. and so that's the last name for us to study the water

. now one of the things that i think has been the feature of discussions about conflict over the last couple of years is the presumption that all war from now on will be proxy wars or some sort of hybrid force that this can magic slide between the forces is no longer a feature of reality. i'm yes, as you point out in your articles, the warning ukraine showed that conventional war is very much, you know, the presence in what way do you think conventional war has changed because it's both a conventional conflict and to some extent and more than conflict show was a messy affairs, all was a messy effect, and you cannot guarantee one, a one would have to be in fact, to read the position of the word waters. talk about the law, the political was and he cannot make laws and all types of what we're talking,

what, what are we talking about from state to state, countryside changing, changing in a big way in manners of non contacts was for non kinetic was this turned off to be many work together, she's the investors come out with what to do them in a while for this gun. been all together because there was in by opened in a course. she didn't get it on one side. there was a lot that we get on site. there was a rough or conventional war, we get it front in the same context. so there were $23.00 was the part of indifferent bennett art together, so they've been don't different. listen, you mentioned that any word is usually for between 2 immediate sides and we have the russian frames here. but i think you would agree with me that the number of participants, croxley participants in the, in the war is much larger. and fact,

i think what the russians have been trying to do, the russian leadership has been trying to do over the last couple of weeks and months with our statements is to sort of call the american bluff of portraying themselves as not being participant to this conflict. in fact, and both kitchen and his defense minister assured, besides, we think that they see that this conflict as a direct confrontation between russia and maitre. do you think the russians of the time being have been successful in turning what americans want to be a proxy war? into a war where all the participants are manifested. now if i go back to this but his doctor, you can go back, father will be happened. and subsequently as even probably for the you could, indians were training between vale and modern warfare. sneaks by the west. nato,

especially in the course of about 6 to 7 when the war commenced, even before the mobilization has been commenced. and you should be one will be made that the world expectations that this one, by norfolk, to be it might be mobilize ation that the russians that the big sized vendors would fill out and sign off for some kind of wash and be but know when the what happened initially? certainly it was a walk between the show and grand time as possible. i think where you see the statements of the speech of putin and on 28th of september, he says that the water against the gender. well, when you talk about water or it cannot mix of sanctions, new one of the position, nomics murphy peters was on. so while you can see the only award and the job on it, because one way, so it's not

a war only between ukraine and, and russia. that's the one on the front. yes. but does that is immense amount of roxy support that comes into your green, which actually facilitates the big one. when you take a step back into any war, steven a little by john and a renewal for 2 years ago. there was a big get it out by by confused some outside. so the proxy can please give morgan who supporting the belligerents to fight the war. but at least in general, i think there is a difference between supporting various parties because you want to achieve your local interest and using a countries specifically to attack your adversary. where the chicken, where does the act in this case, when, when we look at the, you know, this whole balance of power between russia and the west side of the fact that my goal is that the initiative to commence the war was taken by this. you know, right,

it's by the call, it was a new card, especially one by this part of wall. so the initiative was taken by the show. and when the, the risk, you know, it was not that those to the plan support. but i agree with you today. if that has been a little change in be was the question on the, on the line for the front line is done because of the assistant boy by the best of the ways we all knew. the caliber, the been boston had fight the one without the support of the best. it would have been bell, my impossible for you to stand before the might of the machine. and i know that the indians, i appreciate russian literature. so i will allow myself to call one of the classical russian writers, anton checkup, who wrote once that, if a gun is on the war in the opening scene, it is supposed to fire towards the end,

the tension in russia, and may have been going on for quite some time in russia has been signaling its extreme displeasure resume the expansion plans for quite some time. and yet, for some reason, i think there was a, the belief from the west that russia would not act and would not use military force to defend what it sees as strategic interest. i wonder why is that, why is there so much surprising was that russia would command the military operation after all the efforts diplomatic efforts to come to some sort of negotiated agreement with the west regarding ukraine regarding the expansion of major sales. so the issue comes up is, what is a sin shall crisis when a nation says that i'm having existence, you guys the show was always sticking this obvious and that the need to has been will see for a watering. and many of the american also the movie enrica singers at dawn and all

those who have stated that they do not get into this kind of but it was to show it has the guess you can. so this thing was coming for last several, even group it on, but it's not that it's suddenly sprung up on one fine day. having said that, there is a busy day, a still conventional wars that's been going across. no one wants a conventional war. going back to 192950. so if we were not expecting this war to be what it was not expecting a walk to begin to like, but i want to ask you as, as a person who has deepest respect for the military strategy, and this is the, are, this is the science, this is, you know, we're at the end of the day something that people study that they strategize about . do you think russia had any other means of defending? what in dean's in strategic interests and i think you would agree with me that you

know, not having and needed to close is in the strategic interest fashion. most of the people, most of the military analysts i talked to and really even if they don't like, put in the rush or have any other means that it's disposal to define interest and to rip out major from encroaching at ever, closer towards the borders. we wouldn't so during community have seen that then the gross quarters would be pattern bangor and we are the 1st ones to stay warm or not . so lean, no one option to avoid a war must be a way to work if it is unavoidable naturally. so you don't see that that, you know, all options have been tried and even by the russians before they commenced. um, what i don't think that would be talking did the defendant be more direct and specific? what else could russia have done? and i ask you, in good faith as somebody who are, you know,

good will both to ukrainians and so the russians, so we have best over addition. so i think, i mean, we have a solution that we missed to have additional talk to the one. but, you know, see, look at the old biplanes of the dependence of ukraine has on a totally. so if you will on what you have done, what since i've done some odd one large thing, one would have been done by a plain sort of ukraine on you would have said will give you a block. you see, lexi know, instead of actually launching offensive, you could have found many other methods of who are seeing that nation do get onto your site, then fire the 1st block, the done and find out what the lead time in general. it wasn't. i understand that the using economic mechanisms would have saved many lives, but, you know, at the same time, there was information i think, now proven that the west was actively militarize and ukraine. especially in the

early, not only from from 2014, but especially in the early, 20012002021020 2. if that was happening in your disputed border areas, wouldn't the indian army also respond through economic measures? would you think seriously about using your military potential? no, we know, even though the united states is supported by this time who's a belligerent against those who have any long thank this as these the best, the month of september this. ringback so, you know which of the, of the factors and in the neighbors are being addressed in this panel. that doesn't tell us to go and judge across the water, them too big a fight with pakistan. despite the fact that we know that their group proxies to work across to a, to b, n one to speak. but then we're not in qualified running for a fight, but we are prepared for it. we have the bad to do the best possible. so there is

a that there is a but if question for a one of them are you sure wait for? i would still like going to say that if there are opportunities available and then what is what happens or why not see today, europe is split into many parts even today and in dealing with the situation between you great and you have many whites and i'm sure we would have a great amount of business to be bill will europe, which show us a but those don't get on a denial. he's information that is in macros. dad, natal was been dead not long ago, so you know, there was wife. let's continue the discussion after a very, very short break. thank you. ah

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welcoming with sharma, retired lieutenant general of the indian army and distinguished fellow at the canada international foundation and general before a. 5 break, we were talking about how these war could have been avoided, but it's already a reality. have to deal with it as it is. i'm sure, you know, a few days ago the russian president announced partial mobilization, which caused a lot of them to ease the russian society, which i'm up until recently had followed this conflict from the television screens . now it has to draw the reservists into the field and you know, many people while supporting abstract decisions of the government still quite differently about it when they have to contribute to that with that own efforts. so

i wonder how do you think that move to join more reserve is that we're talking about 300000 people. how do you think it will change the dynamics of this conflict? this an interesting thing. firstly, i believe that there was a fetus strategic miscalculations of by the russian. because even though the war was misunderstood, defined of watson, that is possible, misunderstood the kind of support and they go, sins will come. and so you to the was there are many other issues off of the the best and now i am getting anxious on the point of motor don't reach one you showed a few of these is the more blaze ation that has been ordered on september, which is 300000 soldiers and taken the point of motor dog. he's a friend of being get into mobilize ation. men are always in this scenario

right on beginning of the because miscalculation was the point was that the russian forces brought to bear against you. claim people were studying the war said that the quantum of was that in the roster bellows or against bennett, whose audience so me was brought to the institution to do that stuff. so that is why there was, was switching the map of the get it out of the western district, the other district from when i was on to the dunbar area. this is not how should you know, 20052005, mobilize ition always not. having said that, there are many negative negatives are really meant to be used was the, what the quality are meant by that is that most people who are now in these and they will join the data. so they want to be off on scription. and how soon will they come?

i think andrea saying that the the sions are attempting to freeze the line. so if i did light of the fact that we had this before the when it's been so the are in a hurry to get forces to bring about some type of freezing of lines, which i know actually shipped too much. well, this is actually what i've heard from some of the russian analysts as well, that these neutral will be deployed. not so much as frontline soldiers, but rather as sort of proxy border guards that we'll have to take care of the expanding character. and we are talking about 100000 square kilometers where, you know, 4 regions of your brain where the referenda for joining russia are taking place this, this very minute as, as with yeah, i wonder, what do you think will be significant of potential changes or borders in this entire conflict, i mean, this is not a confirmed decision yet,

but the judging from preliminary figures, the overwhelming majority of people who are still leaving those territories, they wanna join russia. so if that happens, what do you think that would mean for the trajectory of the conflict? so if this for if the defendant takes place and people i'm not to be mentioning and do a windshield offender. mccall, the since the canadians also a also is good, and so she does the more no, i don't see an end to this one. maybe the water we have sci fi, but that hard make crimea, or guy me. i was thinking over the russians when the guy, me always voted in the minds of the canadians and all the time. i, me, i was be ok. so all the issues of some or issues off of the border c o r, value of all these issues will give me read this back for a very long time to come. this is not n b, even if it is a sci fi,

it's not working as are required on the list in front of me. there's always pros and cons and that there is no a perfect strategy for decision making, especially when you, when you deal with conflict. but what i'm hearing from, again, some of the russian analysts is that when taking the decision to support the referenda, i didn't put in also had that military sort of strategy in mind in the sense that even those territories, those centers are now under constant bombardment. by western and especially american weapons, high precision weapons. but in theory, by russia, as, regardless of whether there was recognize with non sinners themselves as part of you know, its own territory. it was using different strategies with different weapons to defend that. do you think that stands in the russian position is likely to change western calculus or do you think the west,

some of the western sponsors of this conflict? i'm going to also seek to up the ante. i don't see any landing coming from the best to see the russian friend was heavy automobile bombardment, fire park historically, that was part of the about the they didn't do the same thing and they didn't, they didn't do it. and if it did so me did. but did did this and that you so there is a difference. a was a part of the kind of 55 that the best as the into you pinions. i don't think they . ready will end up so this is this line line of them, but with them and they give it that line up. and then it says despite want to find a space and whatever. and they will also be people behind to see the column list. you know, all these private military companies will be on simply nit picking and targeting.

it isn't like what happened in play me i so i don't see any kind of the sort of situation where need to get us or why i think we are reaching the point. now. you mentioned people behind the scenes. ukrainian nationalists have historically venerated traditional parts isn't guerrilla warfare, even joseph stalin, back in the fifty's refuse iris is 2nd process foolish. we are now seeing, even than that, conduct literature more and more support from western american. what it would be kind of insurgency. how do you think russia should address it as, as a threat? again, not from a moral perspective, but from strategic and tactical perspective. she said, i will get on with the, you know, it will become you know, it was a full time agency. was sort of this issues off on spent in substances that need

them the new because the population, even if the friend of this or and if it comes out of the site, they will be substantial population. this been not be in favor of this. everybody is not going to believe that because, i mean if you look at their figures for the referenda, the support is overwhelming. and again the crimea, and example. sure there were some people who were not very happy with the russians coming in. but the overwhelming majority of people in crimea supported and crimea by and large, but they pretty peaceful since 2014, when it changes the national affiliation. so i see a streak of nationalism which was as not appreciated even before the water began. so that streak of nationalism and you euclidean despite the fact that they were new and all these and all that, those be all be over, you know, all these,

not 10 years back. but having said that, they would be a person bit of people who wouldn't target the depth and the lines of communication . so you have the stablish good. now the, the armed forces and i've done themselves to that side of things like what we did is i'm going to started one time created lead to the areas where, you know, there would be protection the system, a new system make me it was, it is all right, otherwise you've been one bloss takes. this was the one issue into a bad one. now you mentioned before that there is a difference in which a war the thought before. and if you actually look at the way the russians conducted the operation, a rather slow movement, they try to avoid any urban warfare. they didn't bomb cds like, for example, them hurt and didn't even do russian deed in, in gauze. and they, during the 2nd year or so, there was a different approach towards,

i think both russian own military forces and the local populations. do you think that says something. do you think that perhaps explains why the, initially, the russian didn't have these, you know, great success that you and others were expecting simply because they decided that they will take it as low as it needs to be. for the sake of, you know, 1st of all protected people, but also making this success more last thing. they haven't done it, but this is the kind of bond that was made, but they didn't do it. they didn't do it in the, in, on the give side of it when they did it, and many of them done it. this is of mass destruction in the areas of hans because in all the fire i wanted this nuance don't don't beat a typical force or sports on horseback. there's a different thing. the give site was washing as in boy, s and have some they haven't on the side with. i mean there has been,

have been since yesterday. all was a part of the friend was looking for a different manner to from various i'm sick don't really and middle study each one of different. i think that has met it in your argument. said that there was a dying down of the military and by the political milestone in how the was going to be 4. and that's one of these. amid that none the points. but i also needed somebody is louisa learning point as to the minute to start the season now be in by the want to go to my list of how this is done. yes. at the time, i mean, i want to ask you one last question. me, you mentioned the, the point of no return a couple of times and i think i would, i would even say that we have reached it already. because referenda again, regardless of whether they're west or the world recognizes them are irreversible. you know, russia is not going. busy to turn and walk back away from that,

but you can also argue that they present an opportunity for all the sides to sort of count them also caught their future losses and decide on what they're going to do next. is it likely at this point, do you think there will be a sobering moment for all the sides involved to try to assess the situation and perhaps change that strategy? if that happens, it would be good, but i don't foresee, it's my personal opinion of it. i don't foresee because whatever you might say ukrainian being that the standard reason or glass or i mean the auto glass ahead, some is not business and neither is of course, you know, believe it or not is a nice with what he. so the fact is that they would think that it has been lost. it grew rankel in the mind, the euclidean population, the government, but all that good. see, okay, what is done is done. no,

it won't happen this way. it doesn't happen. you will have any loss of that if the or it is ankles for the reasons are well, listen in general, we have to leave it there. thank you very much for sharing your thoughts in such a direct way. thank you for watching hope to hear again next week. all the part. ah, a ah, ah, a

with, with both both the models you need to do with a, with a, with a, with a personal number here for, you know,

with a top stories of the week aeronautics international, the bathroom publics, and the heart of san an apology. regions to celebrate and historic moment vladimir putin signed to decree on our accession to russia. it's coming off to a string of referenda. the anglo saxons have not had enough with their sanctions. they've moved on to the should. the russian president blames the west for the sabotage with the north stream pipelines which of course supplied gas to europe. and he points to who wouldn't benefits with angry local. so attacking the french embassy but.