to say that the bad teacher of military strategy is in fact war as costly and cruel as it may be in dispos delusions that brings everyone in contact with reality. what have been the tactical and strategic license of the ukranian conflict so far, both for the region and for the world. to discuss that i'm now joined by sharma, retired lieutenant general, of the indian army and distinguished follow at the come out of the international foundation. but then the general is great, pleasure, great honor for me to talk to you. thank you very much for your time. thank you very much for my team. we have, you know, i've been interviewing a lot of indian. yes. lately. one of the things that i was struck by is 1st the amount of attention that the indian observers and eastern observers in general, of paying to this conflict. and 2nd of all, is this very detail, cold blooded will have it analysis,

which is quite different from all this emotional moralizing is more typical of the western observers. i think. do you think the indians in particular, or isn't observers in general approach war, this conflict differently? you know, thank you. the fact of the matter is that it's a war and be analyze all was like this. you would have analyzed. iraq was also similar, leaving the iraq was so each of the what is it and laser to learn the best. but this is a need to be conventional. lots and lots of people was he mentioned, most of that won't happen again. but then you see a conventional war of this guy, and i'm, this will come bad this when the war about this is a much higher skin war. and this is a super bob and more of the show. so one was expecting of a kind of warfare b, b, just many listen of modern warfare and all future forces are characterized will

because x rays and thanks to that last name for us from studying the water. now one of the things that i think has been the feature of discussions about conflict over the last couple of years is the presumption that all wars from now on will be proxy wars or some sort of hybrid force that this kinetic 5 between the forces is no longer a feature of reality. yes. as you point out in your articles, the warning ukraine showed that conventional war is very much a, you know, the presence in what way do you think conventional war has changed because it's both a conventional conflict and to some extent and more than conflict show was that messy affairs, all was i miss your friends and you cannot guarantee one a one would have to be in fact to be the physician of the word waters. talk about

the law. the political was an economic was in all dates was needed. what, what are we talking about the state to state conferences, changing to get a big weight in manners of non contact was or non kinetic was. this turned off to be many work together. she, investors come out with the multi domain or what to do them in a walk. this gun been all together because there was in my, opened in a course. she didn't get it on one side, there was a lot of sites. there was a rough or a convention or was we get it over at the front in the same context. so there were 3, was me out in different bennett art together, so they've been don't different. listen, you mentioned that anyway is usually for between 2 immediate sides and we have the russian frame here. but i think you would agree with me that the number of

participants across the participants in the, in this war is much larger. and fact, i think what the russians have been trying to do, the russian leadership has been trying to do over the last couple of weeks and months with our statement is to sort of call the american blood of portraying themselves as not being participant to this conflict. in fact, and both of his defense ministers show that we think that they see that this conflict as a direct confrontation between russia and major. do you think the russians of the time being have been successful in turning what americans want to be a proxy war, into a war where all the participants are manifested? now if i go back to this with his doctor, you can go back and we'll be happy. and subsequently as even progress for the you can, indians were training, then trained where modern was nice by the west. nato,

especially in the course of 6 to 7 years when the war commenced, even before the mobilization has been commenced. and you should be one will be made that the world expectations that is one way to be it might be mobilized, isn't that that a big exercise would fizzle out in time for some kind of wash and big but know when the, what happened initially? certainly, it was of water between the show and grading time as possible, i think. and where you see the statement of the speech of putin and on 28th of september, he says that the water against the gender, well, when you talk about water or it cannot mix of sanction water, that's an issue of moments. thanks, dana murphy peters was on. so while you gone state the only award between and did

you want to be go one way. so it's not a war only between ukraine and, and russia, that's the one on the front. yes. but this debt is immense amount of rock see support that comes into your green, which actually facilitates the big one. when you take a step back into any war, see even a little by john and i renewed for 2 years ago. there was one big get it out by by confused some say so the proxy can please give morgan to supporting the didn't to hide the war. but at least in general, i think there is a difference between supporting various parties because you want to achieve your local interest and using a country specifically to attack your adversary. where the chicken, where did they act? in this case, when, when we look at the, you know, this whole balance of power between russia and the west of new factor. is that

the initiative to commence the one was taken by this? you know, right. it's by the color water. you got one by this part of wall. so the initiative was taken by the shop. and when the list he had been invest not. it was not that those do the plan support, but i agree with you today. if that has been the change in be was the question on the, on the line for the front line is done because of the assistant boy by the best. otherwise, we all knew the caliber that you've been forced to add, fight the one without the support of the best. it would have been well nigh impossible for you to stand before the might of the machine was. i know that the indians, i appreciate the russian literature so i will allow myself to call one of the classical russian writers. anton checkup, who wrote once that if you're gone is on the war in the opening speed,

it is supposed to fire towards the end. the tension in russia and nature have been going on for quite some time in russia has been signaling its extreme displeasure with nato expansion plans for quite some time. and yet, for some reason, i think that there was a deep belief in the west that russia would not act and would not use military force to defend what it sees as the strategic interest. i wonder why is that, why is there so much surprising? there was that russia with commands these military operations, after all the efforts diplomatic efforts to come to some sort of negotiated agreement with the west regarding ukraine and the, regarding the expansion of nato failed. so the issue comes up is what does exist in ship crisis when a nation says that i'm having existential crisis, the show was always a step thing, this obvious and that the need to was been, well,

was she part of water? and many of the a medical also the li, enrica singers and drugs and all those who have stated that they go, well, it's not good morgan, who is this kind of but it's a, this is the show, the show is hands against you. so this thing was coming for last 50 years. so really from 2803. it's not that it suddenly sprung up on one fine day. but having said that, there is a buffet of still conventional wars that's been going across the water watch the conventional wall. i was going back to the 1914 and i can see. so we were not expecting this was to be what it was, not, i think a walk to begin. but i want to ask you as a, as a person who has deepest respects with the military strategy, and this is the, are, this is the science. this is, you know, war at the end of the day, something that people study that they strategize about. do you think russia had any

other means defending what is being this strategic interest? and i think you would agree with me that, you know, not having made it to close is in the interest of russian, most of the people, most of the military analysts, i talk to every, even if they don't like boots in the russia, have any other means of its disposal to just bomb its interest and to repel major from encroaching ever closer to the borders. look we, what was your community? have seen that kind of goes for those big pattern nangle and we are the 1st ones to stay warm or not. so lead one option to a why the water must be taken away to work if it is, i know why the but naturally so you know, to see that, that, you know, all the options have been tried and even by the russians before they commenced. what i don't think that would be talking depending there be more direct and specific, what else could russia have done?

and i ask you, in good faith as somebody who will both ukrainian or russian. so we have best relation that you why i think, i mean, we have best religion that we just have a dog to the one. but, you know, see, look at the biplanes of the dependence that you has on from that totally. so if you will, what you have done to should have done some odd one large thing. one would have been done to the fireplace out of you green on you would have said, we'll give you a block. you see, lexi know, instead of actually launching offensive, you could have found many other methods of who are seeing the nation. no, a get on to your site, then fire the 1st block, the done and fight of when it, but lately kind of general. it wasn't. i understand that the using economic mechanisms would have saved many lives, but, you know, at the same time, there was information i think,

now proven that the west was actively militarize and ukraine. especially in the early, not only from from 2014, but especially in the early, 20012002021020 2. if that was happening in your disputed border areas, wouldn't the indian army also respond through economic measures? would you think seriously about using your military potential? no, we know, even though the united states is supported by this time who's a belligerent against those who have any long thank this as these the best, the month of september. ringback so, you know which of the, of the factors and in the neighbors are being addressed in this panel. that doesn't tell us to go and judge across the water, them too big a fight with pakistan. despite the fact that we know that their group proxies to work across to a, to b n one to speak. but then we're not itching,

fortified running for a fight, but we are prepared for it. we have the bad to do the best possible. so there is a, there is a, but if question for a one of them are you sure wait for? i would still like going to say that if there are opportunities available and then what is what happens or why not see today, europe is split into many parts even today and in dealing with the situation between us and you. great, and you have many whites and something all good. i'm sure we would have a great amount of business to be bill will. europe, which show us blank associate with those don't get on to a denial. he's information, there's been macros, dad, natal was been dead back long ago. so you know, there was wife. let's continue the discussion after a very, very short break. stay tuned. ah

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ah ah ah well condemning. well, the court with a sharma retired lieutenant general of the indian army and distinguished fellow at the canada international foundation lieutenant general before a. 5 a break we were talking about how these war could have been avoided, but it's already a reality. have to deal with it as it is. i'm sure, you know, a few days ago the russian president announced partial mobilization, which caused

a lot of i'm eating the russian society, which i'm up until recently had followed this conflict from the television screens . now it has to draw the reservists into the field and you know, many people while supporting abstract decisions of the government still quite differently about it when they have to contribute to that with that own efforts. so i wonder how do you think that move to join more reserve is that we're talking about 300000 people. how do you think it will change the dynamics of this conflict? this an interesting thing was lee, i believe that there was theda strategic miscalculations of by the russian. because even though the war was misunderstood, defined of watson, that is possible, misunderstood the kind of support and they go, sions will come and some of the many other issues off of the the best. and

now i am getting anxious on the point of motor. don't reach. so one showed a few of the is the more blaze ation that has been ordered on september, which is $300000.00 soldiers and taken the point of motor don't be the friend of being get into mobilize ation band are always in this scenario. right? from beginning of the because miscalculation was, the point was that the russian forces brought to bear against you, claim people were studying the war said that the quantum of hosted in the wanted russian bellows are against the law. whose order is he was to me, was grossly insufficient for both of us. so that is why there was to what those switching meant by being get it out from the rest of the street. this of them the street from when it was on to the gone boss, get it done about that. yes, this is not all, such in 820052000 kilometer fund, perio,

mobilize ition always. now having said that, there are many negative negatives. are rid of the men bar, could be use mostly what one of the meant by going to come from that is that those people who are off on scription then all of these and they will join it. so the quality of constitution and how soon will they come? i think, and they are saying that the the sions are attempting to freeze the line, solidify the lines of contact with the us before the winter. so they're, they're not even good forces to, to bring about some kind of freezing of lines, which i know actually shifting too much. well, this is actually what i heard from some of the russian analysts as well, that these new troops will be deployed. not so much as frontline soldiers, but rather as sort of proxy border guards that we'll have to take care of this expanding territory. and we are talking about 100000 square kilometers where,

you know, for regions of your brain where they wrap around them for joining russia, taking place this very minute as, as it was. yeah. i wondered, what do you think will be the significance of this potential changes of borders in this entire conflict? i mean, this is not a confirmed decision yet, but the judges from preliminary figures, the overwhelming majority of people who still leave in those territories. they wanna join russia, so if that can be happens, what do you think that would mean for the trajectory of the conflict? so if this for if the defendant base place and people i'm not to be venturing into a window of in the sense that the indians also defended based also is that he does the lord. yeah, i don't see an end to this one. maybe the water we have the fire, but that heart next crimea guy, me,

i was people over the by the addition. but the guy, me always good in the mine and all the time. so i me, i will be working. so all the time issues are, are issues of, of the voters, are menu of all, all these issues will be me in the, for the, in, for this on back for a very long time to come. this is not in the, even a bit of the, but it's not one who and as our white on the western front to agree with me, there is always pros and cons. and there is no perfect strategy for decision making, especially when, when you deal with a condo complex. but what i'm hearing from against some of the russian analysts is that when taking these decisions to support the referenda, i didn't put in also had the military sort of strategy in mind in the sunset, even those territories, those searches are now under constant bombardment by western and especially

american weapons, high precision weapons, but considered by russia as, regardless of whether there was recognize themselves as part of its own territories . it was used in different strategies, would use different weapons to disband it. do you think that sounds in the russian position is likely to change western calculus or do you think the sum of the western sponsors of this conflict are going to also seeks to up the ante? i don't see any the lending coming from the best to see the russian friend was heavy automobile bombardment, fire park historically that was part of the about the they didn't do the same thing and they didn't, they didn't do it. and if it did so me did, but did, did this and that you so there is a difference. a was of the, of the kind of 55 that the best as to the into you pinions. i don't think they.

ready will end up so this is this line 9 of them when they give it that will build again, it despite wonderful space and whatever. and they will also be people behind to see the columnist, you know, all these private military companies who will be on simply picking and targeting it is like what happened in time. yeah. and so i don't see any kind of what the situation when i think why i think we are reaching the point now you mentioned people behind the scenes ukrainian nationalists have historically venerated traditional parts isn't guerrilla warfare, even jewels, a stalin a back in the fifty's with his iris is 2nd grade in the process foolish. we are now seeing, even than that, conduct literature more and more support from western american. what would these

kind of insurgency, how do you think russia should address it as, as a threat? again, not from a moral perspective, but from strategic and tactical perspective. she did, i will get on with the, you know, it will become, you know, it was a full time. it was sort of this issues off on spent in so many of them the new because the population, even if the friend them this or and if it comes out because of the site, they will be substantial population. this been not be in favor of us. everybody is not going to believe that because, i mean if you look at their figures for the referenda, the support is overwhelming. and again the crimea, and example. sure there were some people who were not very happy with the russians coming in. but the overwhelming majority of people in crimea supported it and crimea by and large, but it's, they pretty peaceful since 2014,

when it changes national affiliation. so i see a streak of nationalism which was as not appreciated even before the water began. so that streak of nationalism and you, you clearly and despite the fact that they were new and all these and all that, those be all be over, you know, all these not the same years back. but having said that, they would be a person bit of people who would be willing target and the lines of communication. so you have a stablish good. now the, the armed forces and i've done themselves to that side of things like what we did is i'm going to start at one time created lead to the areas where, you know, there would be protection the system, a new system, maybe it was right. otherwise, even one blast makes, this was the one issue into a bad one. now, you mentioned before that there is a difference in which was

a thought before. and if you actually look at the way the russians conducted operation, a rather slow movement, they try to avoid any urban warfare. they didn't bomb cds like, for example, them hurt and didn't even do russian deed in, in gauze. and during the 2nd year or so, there was a different approach towards i think, both, you know, russian own military forces and the local population. do you think that says something. do you think that perhaps explains why the, initially, the russian didn't have these, you know, great success that you and others were expecting simply because they decided that they will take it as low as it needs to be. for the sake of, you know, 1st of all protected people, but also making this success more lasting. they haven't done it, but this is the kind of bond that was made,

but they didn't do it. they didn't do it in the, in, on the give side of it when they did it, and many of them done it. this is of mass destruction in the areas of hans because in all the fire i wanted this nuance don't don't beat a typical force or sports on horseback. there's a different thing. the give site was, wasn't that they didn't break s and have some they haven't on the side with, i mean, there has been a, since you all was a part of the friend was looking for a different manner to from various. i'm sick, don't really and middle study each one of different. i think that has met it in your, on the back there was a dying down of the military and by the political milestone in how the was going to be 4. and that's one of these are the points that i also needed somebody is louisa learning point as to the minute to start to do that. now, it didn't by the want to go to math. so this of how this is done by

yet. i mean, i want to ask you one last question me, you mentioned the, the point of no return a couple of times and i think i would, i would even say that we have reached it already. because referenda, again, regardless of whether they're west or the world recognizes them are irreversible, you know, rush is not going to turn and walk back away from that. but you can also argue that they present an opportunity for all, besides, to sort of count them also caught their future losses and decide on what they're going to do next. is it likely at this point, do you think there will be a sobering moment for all the sides involved to try to assess the situation and perhaps change that strategy? if that happens, it would be good, but i don't foresee rep wasn't opinion of it. i don't foresee because whatever you

might say ukrainian mean that that'd be the oral blast or, i mean the auto glass ahead, some will is not business and neither is of course, you know, believe it or not is good with what he. so the fact is that they would think that it has been lost, it going to rank up in the mind off the euclidean population, the government, but all that good. see ok. what is done is done. no, it won't happen this way. it doesn't happen. you have any loss of that if the, whatever it is, ankles or divisions are well, listen in general, we have to leave it there. thank you very much for sharing your thoughts in such a direct way. thank you for watching hope to hear again next week. all the part, ah a

ah, ah, [000:00:00;00] a with a one up with a question,

get with him with out of the top stories or the week care what r t international, the don't bathroom public sunday song, a orgy region celebrate. and historic moment is auto. vladimir putin signed to decree on their expression to russia. it's all coming off a string. the regional referendum to the anglo saxons have not had enough with their sanctions. they've moved on to diversion. the russian president blames the west for the sabotage to the north stream pipeline, which of course supplied gas straight to europe. you also points out who would likely benefit the most. also, the africans data, but a keen