ah, with walking towards the part of generals like to say that the best teacher of military strategy is in fact war as costly and cruel as it may be in dispos allusions and brings everyone in contact with reality. what have been the tactical and strategic license of the ukranian conflict so far, both with region and for the world of to discuss that i'm now joined by cash sharma, retired lieutenant general of the indian army and distinguished fellow at the commander international foundation. but then in general is great pleasure,

great honor for me to talk to you. thank you very much for your time. thank you very much for inviting me or not. you know, i've been interviewing a lot of indian guests lately. and one of the things that i was struck by is 1st the amount of attention that the indian observers and eastern observers in general, a pain to this conflict. and 2nd of all, is this very detailed, cold blooded cool hatted analysis, which is quite different from all this emotional moralizing that is more typical of the western observers. i think. do you think that the indians in particular, or is an observers in general approach war and this conflict differently? thank you. the fact of the matter is that it's a war b analyze all was like this. you would have analyzed rockwall roku, similar leave that bag or iraq was. so each of the watches and laser to love the

best. but this is a need to be conventional. lots and lots of people was he mentioned, most of that won't happen again. but then you see a conventional war of this guy, and i'm, this will come bad this when the war, no more about this is a much higher skin war. and this did is super bob and more of the show. so one was 16 of kind of warfare, just mainly listens of modern warfare and all future bosses are characterized will become x rays. and thanks to that last name for us from study, the water in the now one of the things that i think has been the feature of discussions about conflict over the last couple of years is the presumption that all war from now on will be proxy wars or some sort of hybrid force that this can magic slide between the forces is no longer a feature of reality. and yes, as you point out in your articles,

the warning ukraine showed that conventional war is still very much a, you know, the presence, in what way do you think conventional war has changed because it's both a conventional conflict and to some extent and more than conflict show was that messy affairs, all was a messy effect. and you cannot guarantee wonder why wouldn't turn out to be in fact, to read the physician of the word waters didn't talk about the law, then it was an economic was and all was nice talking what, what are we talking about the state to state countryside changing changing in a big way in manners of non contacts was for non kinetic was. this turned out to be many words together. she's the best to come out with them. i don't know what to do them in a while for this gun. been all together because there was in by opened in

a course, she didn't get it on one side. there was a lot that we get on site. there was a rough or a convention or warming getting runs in the same context. so they were $23.00 was be part of indifferent. bennett art together, so they've been don't different. listen, you mentioned that any word is usually for between 2 immediate sides and we have the russian frames here. but i think you would agree with me that the number of participants, croxley participants in the, in the war is much larger. and fact, i think what the russians have been trying to do, the russian leadership has been trying to do over the last couple of weeks and months with our statements is to sort of call the american bluff of portraying themselves as not being participant to this conflict. in fact, and both of his ministers show that we think that they see that this conflict

as a direct confrontation between russia and maitre. do you think the russians of the time being have been successful in turning what americans want to be a proxy war into a war where all the participants are manifested? now if i go back to this, but it's dr. leave and go back up and will be happened. and subsequently as even from this for the you could, indians were training then a bit trained and modern was nice by the west. nato, especially in the course of about 6 to 7 years when the war commenced. even before the mobilization has been commenced and you should be, one will be made that the world expectations that is one why not back to the it might be mobile edition that get that done in a big, big sized and wouldn't fizzle out in time for some kind of wash and be but know when the, what happened initially certainly it was

a water between the show and grain. time as possible. i think where you see the statements of the speech of the still put in and on 28th of september, he says that the water against the gender, well when you talk about water or it cannot mix of sanctions, new one of the position of mommy to the dinner murphy peters was on. so while you can see the only award between and the job want to be good was wasted . so it's not a war only between ukraine and, and russia. that's the one on the front. yes. but does that is immense amount of roxy support that comes into your green, which actually facilitates the big one. when you take a step back into any war, steven a little by john and a renewal for 2 years ago. there was a big get it out by, by confused from outside. so the proxy can please give morgan to supporting the,

the didn't to hide the war. but within a general, i think there is a difference between supporting various parties because you want to achieve your local interest and using a country specifically to attack your adversary. whereas the chicken, where does the act in this case, when, when we look at the, you know, this whole balance of power between russia and the west side of the fact that my goal is that the initiative to commence the war was taken by the, you know, right, it's by the call, it was a new card, especially one by this part of wall. so the initiative was taken by the shop. and when the, the vis, you know, it was not that those to the plan support. but i agree with you today. if that has been a little change in be, was the question on the, on the line, the door or the front line is done because of the assistant boy by the best of the

ways we all knew the caliber you've been forced and had the walk without the support of the best it would have been bell, my impossible for you to stand with the might of the machine. and now i know that the indians, i appreciate russian literature. so i will allow myself to call one of the classical russian writers and check of who wrote once that if a gun is on the war in the opening scene, it is supposed to fire towards the end, the tension in russia and may to have been going on for quite some time in russia has been signaling its extreme displeasure resume the expansion plans for quite some time. and yet, for some reason, i think there was a, the belief from the west that russia would not act and would not use military force to defend what it sees as strategic interest. i wonder why is that,

why is there so much surprising? there was that russia would commands these military operation after all the efforts diplomatic efforts to come to some sort of negotiated agreement with the west regarding ukraine and the, regarding the expansion of nato failed. so the issue comes up is, what is a sin shall crisis when a nation says that i'm having existence, you guys the show was always sticking this obvious and that the need to has been will see for a water. and many of the american also the movie enrica singers at dawn, and all those who have stated that they do not get into this kind of but it was to show it has the guess you can. so this thing was coming for us to be a separate group out of it on, but it's not that it's suddenly sprung up on one fine day. when having said that, there is a busy day, a still conventional rewards that's been going across. no one wants to conventional

war, going back to 192950. so if we were not expecting this war to be what it was not expecting a walk to begin to like, but i want to ask you as, as a person who has deepest respect for the military strategy, and this is the, are, this is the science, this is, you know, we're at the end of the day something that people study that they strategize about . do you think russia had any other means of defending? what in deans, in strategic interests? and i think you would agree with me that you know, not having and needed to close is in the strategic interest fashion. most of the people, most of the military analysts, i talked to, and really, even if they don't like boots and did the russia have any other means at his disposal to define interest and to rip out major from encroaching ever closer towards the borders. we go to school during community, have seen that then the gross quarters would be pattern bangor and we are the 1st

ones to stay warm or not. so lean, no one option to avoid a war must be a way to work if it is unavoidable, naturally. so you don't to say that, that, you know, all option hadn't been tried and even by the russians before they come as to what i don't think that would be talking, did need to be more direct and specific. what else could russia have done? and i ask you, in good faith as somebody who are, you know, good will both to ukrainians and so the russians. so we have best on addition to, i think, i mean, we have a solution that we missed to have them to the one. but, you know, see, look at the oil biplanes, and the dependence of ukraine has on a totally. so if you want, what you have done, what i've done some odd one large thing, one would have been done to the fireplace out of you green on. you would have said

will give you a block. you see lexi know, instead of actually launching offensive, you could have found many other methods of what a single nation do get onto your site. then fire the 1st block, the done and fight of will it. but lately kind of general, it wasn't, i understand that the, using economic mechanisms would have saved many lives. but, you know, at the same time, there was information i think, now proven that the west was actively militarize and ukraine. especially in the early, not only from from 2014, but especially in the early, 20012002021022 in that was happening in your disputed border areas. wouldn't the indian army also respond through economic measures? would you think seriously about using your military potential? no, we know, even though the united states is supported, focused on who's

a belligerent against those who have any long. thank this as these, the best, the month of september. ringback so, you know which of the, of the factors and in the neighbors are being addressed in the span of that doesn't tell us to go and judge across the water. them too big a fight with pakistan. despite the fact that we know that they do proxies to work across to a, to b, n one to speed. but then we're not in for a fight running for a fight. but we are prepared for it. we have the bad to do the best possible. so there is a, there is a but if question for a one of them are you sure wait for, i would still like going to say that if there are opportunities available and then what is, what happens or why not see today, europe is split into many parts even today and in dealing with the situation between us and you. great, and you have many whites coming over. i'm sure we would have

a great amount of business to be bill will europe show us bring a those don't get on a denial all his information. there's been macros that nato was been dead long ago . so, you know, be a worldwide. let's continue the discussion after a very, very short break. stay tuned. ah. a a nation african, what is the best time to go about them? this is on the political believe it was a lady with what i school car wasn't

report backwards. thank same here. nothing. the medicaid report to nick carter, the stablish don't they love it? really a conditional krinski part of it, which it said to jeff, i mean you can even go, can be coma, loosen and vehicle or somebody. and the community that they've got a lovely novel, like it's supposed to this out, the keys affected dor, fully out of them. julia needed one with us. that's a disclaimer. but that was the last book, moving it right. nobody with is looking at them during the summer because i've met with kathy so much for them. we're gonna have credit will. it wasn't a, with

a with a welcoming will that work with erica sharma retired lieutenant general of the indian army and distinguished fellow at the if you can on the international foundation lieutenant general before the. 5 break, we were talking about how these war could have been avoided, but it's already a reality. yeah. have to deal with it as it is. i'm sure, you know, a few days ago the russian president announced partial mobilization, which caused a lot of i'm easing the russian society, which i'm up until recently had followed this conflict from the television screens

. now it has to draw the reservists into the field and you know, many people while supporting abstract decisions of the government feel quite differently about it when they have to contribute to that with that own efforts. so i wonder how do you think that move to join more reserve is that we're talking about a 100000 people. how do you think it will change the dynamics of this conflict? that's an interesting thing. firstly, i believe the give us see the strategic miscalculations of by the russian. because even though the war was misunderstood, depend of watson, that is possible, misunderstood the kind of support and they go, sions will come and some of the many other issues of the, the best. now i am getting anxious on the point of motor don't reach to one you showed

a few of the is the mobilize ation. that has been ordered on september, just see 100000 soldiers and taken the point of motor. don't be the friend of being get into mobilize ation band are always in this scenario right from beginning of the because miscalculation was the point was that the russian forces brought to bear against you. claim people were studying. the war said that the quantum of was that in the russian bellows or against 2 bedrooms, or if he was so me was brought to the institution to do that stuff. so that is why there was, was switching the man being carried out of the western district, the southern district, from when it was on to the gun boss. this is not how should you know, 20052000 fun. mobilize ation always ends. not having said that there are many negative negatives are really meant to be use what the,

what the quality are meant by that is that both people who are construction then all of these and they will join the so they want to be off on scription and how soon will they come? i think andrea saying that the the sions are attempting to freeze the line. so if i did light of the fact that we had this before the, when it's been, so the air in a hurry to get forces to bring about some type of freezing of lines, which i know actually shipped too much. well, this is actually what i've heard from some of the russian analysts as well that these new troops will be deployed. not so much as frontline soldiers, but rather as sort of proxy border guards that we'll have to take care of the expanding character. and we're talking about 100000 square kilometers where, you know, 4 regions of your brain where the referenda for joining russia are taking place

this, this very minute as, as with yeah, i wonder, what do you think will be significance of these potential changes or borders in this entire conflict, i mean, this is not confirmed decision yet, but judging from preliminary figures, the overwhelming majority of people who are still leaving those territories, they wanna join russia. so in that and be happens, what do you think that would mean for the trajectory of the conflict? so if this for if the defendant takes place and people i'm not to be venturing into a windshield offender. my thought, the since the opinions also a risk also is good and so she does the more no, i don't see an end to this one. maybe the water we have sci fi, but that hard make crimea, or guy me. i was thinking over the russians, but the guy, me always one good in the minds of the canadians and all the time. i me,

i was be ok. so all the issues of some already shoes off of the border c o r value of all these issues will give me for the for this aren't back for a very long time to come. this is not n b even if it is a c, but it's not working as our white on the best in front of me. there is always pros and cons and that there is no a perfect strategy for decision making, especially when you, when you deal with the conflict. but what i'm hearing from, again, some of the russian analysts is that when taking the decision to support the referenda . and i didn't put in also had that military sort of strategy in mind in the sense that even those territories, those temperatures are now under constant bombardment. by western and especially american weapons, high precision weapons, but even considered by russia as, regardless of whether they're west recognizes with non is themselves as part of,

you know, its own territory. it was using different strategies with different weapons to defend that. do you think that stands in the russian position is likely to change western calculus or do you think the west, some of the western sponsors of this conflict? i'm going to also seek to up the ante. i don't see any limping coming from the best to see the russian friend was heavy, automobile bombardment, fire par historically. that was part of the about the they didn't do the same thing and they didn't, they didn't do it. and if it did so me did. but did did this and that you so there is a difference. a was a part of the kind of 5 bob that the best as to the into you pinions. i don't think they. ready will end up so this is this line line of them with them and they

give it that will build again, it says despite what they space and whatever. and they will also be people behind to see the columnist, you know, all these private military companies will be on simply picking and targeting. it isn't like what happened in time. yeah. and so i don't see any kind of the situation. i'm going to get us on why i think we are reaching the point of moving. now, you mentioned people behind the scenes. ukrainian nationalists have historically venerated traditional parts isn't guerrilla warfare, even joseph stalin, back in the fifty's with his iris. it's back to school in the process foolish. we are now seeing, even than that, conduct literature more and more support from western an american. what would these kind of insurgency, how do you think russia should address it as a threat? again, not from a moral perspective,

but from strategic and tactical perspective. she did, i will get on with the, you know, it will become, you know, it was a full time. it was sort of this issues off on spent in so many of them the new because the population, even if the friend them this or and if it comes out of the site, they will be substantial population. this been not be in favor of us. everybody is not going to believe that because, i mean if you look at their figures for the referenda, the support is overwhelming. and again the crimea, and example. sure there were some people who were not very happy with the russians coming in. but the overwhelming majority of people in crimea supported and crimea by and large, but it's been pretty peaceful since 2014, when it changes national affiliation. so i see a streak of nationalism which was as not appreciated even before the water

began. so that streak of nationalism and euclidean despite the fact that they were new and all these and all that was b a, b, a 0. but elliot, you know, all these not the same years back. but having said that, they would be a person bit of people who wouldn't target the depth and the lines of communication . so you have a stablish good. now the, the armed forces and i've done themselves to that side of things like what we did is i'm going to started one time created lead to the areas where, you know, there would be protection the system, a new system, it will have it all right. otherwise, even one blas takes this. what's the issue into a back burner? you mentioned before that there is a difference in which was a thought before. and if you actually look at the way the russians conducted

operation around this little movement, they try to avoid any urban warfare. they didn't bomb cds like, for example, them hurt and didn't even do russians. deed in, in gauze, in the, during the 2nd year or so, there was a different approach towards, i think, both russian own military forces and the local population. do you think that says something. do you think that perhaps explains why the, initially, the russian didn't have these, you know, great success that you and others were expecting simply because they decided that they will take it as low as it needs to be. for the sake of, you know, 1st of all protected people, but also making this success more lasting. they haven't done it, but this is the kind of bond that was made, but they didn't do it. they didn't do it and be in on the give side of it when they

did it, and many of them done it. this is of mass destruction in the areas of hans, because in all the fire i wanted was nuanced, don't don't, will be a typical force to watch sports on horseback. there's a different thing. the gifts i was watching that they didn't break s and have some they haven't on the side with on. i mean there has been a since you all was a part of the friend was looking for a different manner to from various on sick don't really. and middle study, each one of different i think that has met it in your argument, said that there was a dying down of the military and by the political milestone in how the was before. and that's one of these are the points that i also needed somebody is louisa learning point as to the minute to start the season now be in by the want to go to my so this of this is done bus. yeah. at the time, i mean, i want to ask you one last question. me,

you mentioned the point of no return a couple of times and i think i would, i would even say that we have reached it already. because referenda, again, regardless of whether they're west or the world recognizes them are irreversible. you know, russia is not going to turn and walk back away from that. but you can also argue that they present an opportunity for all the sides to sort of count them. also caught their future analysis and decide on what they're going to do next. is it likely at this point, do you think there will be a sobering moment for all the sides involved to try to assess the situation and perhaps change that strategy? if that happens, it would be good, but i don't foresee, it's my personal opinion of it. i don't foresee because whatever you might say, ukrainians will mean that that'd be the oral blast. or i mean the auto glass ahead . some will, is not business, and neither is of course, you know, believe it,

us or not, is less with what he so the fact is that they would think that it has been lost. it could have rankled in the mind of the euclidean population, the government, but all that good. see ok. what is done is done. no, it won't happen this way. it doesn't happen. you have any loss of that. if the or it is ankles, organizations are well listen in general, we have to leave it there. thank you very much for sharing your thoughts in such a direct way. thank you for watching hope to hear again next week. all the part, ah a ah,

or with a muffler or they only do we on the move. weird young hoarded, young woman, was in the mid a sort of an update on what to one of the idea about them. this is a beautiful layout group, was of it. when i, you know, global, below vanessa. if the notice of it. mm college. so glad aisha off it. look at data is credible life hero saw it. what mean they thought this phone with.