for the world to discuss it, i'm now joined by a rough cast. charmaya retired lieutenant general of the indian army and distinguished follow at the come out of the international foundation. but then in general is great pleasure, great honor for me to talk to you. thank you very much for your time. thank you very much inviting me. you know, i've been interviewing a lot of indian yes. lately. one of the things that i was struck by is 1st the amount of attention that the indian observers and eastern observers in general, up paying to this conflict. and 2nd of all, is this very detail, cold blooded who had it analysis, which is quite different from all this emotional moralizing that is more typical of the western observers. i think. do you think the indians, in particular, or it's an observers in general approach war, this conflict differently? you know, thank you. the fact of the matter is that it's

a war and be analyze all war like this you would have in iraq was also similar. leave them as well that battery iraq was so each of the what is it and laser malibu, none the best. but this is a need to be conventional lots and lots of people say conventional. most of it won't happen again. but then you see a conventional war of this guy, and i'm, this will gone bad this when the war about this is a much higher in war and this did it super bob and more the show. so what was expecting of a kind of warfare just then he listens of modern warfare and whole future forces are characterized will because x rays and thanks to that last name for us from study, the water that now one of the things that i think has been the feature of discussions about conflict over the last couple of years is the presumption that all wars from

now on will be proxy wars or some sort of hybrid force that this kinetic 5 between the forces is no longer a feature of, of reality. and yes, as you point out in your articles, the warning ukraine showed that conventional war is very much a, you know, the presence in what way do you think conventional war has changed because it's both a conventional conflict and to some extent and more than conflict show was that messy affairs, all was i miss your friends and you cannot guarantee one a one wouldn't turn out to be. in fact the definition of the word waters didn't talk about the law. busy the political was an economic was an all day, was me talking what, what are we talking about the state to state countryside changing, changing in a big way in manners of non contact was non kinetic was this turned out

to be many words together. she, investors come out with the multi domain or what was this done all together because there was in my, opened in a course. she didn't get it on one side. there was a lot of sites, there was a rock or a convention or won't be getting at the front in the same context. so they were 23 was me out in different manner together so they've been don't different. listen to all you mentioned that any word is usually for between 2 immediate side and then we have the russian frames here. but i think you would agree with me that the number of participants proxy participants in the, in this war is much larger. and fact, i think what the russians have been trying to do, the russian leadership has been trying to do over the last couple of weeks and months with our statement is to sort of call the american bluff of portraying

themselves as not being participant to this conflict. in fact, and both of them, his defense ministers show that we think that they see that this conflict as a direct confrontation between russia and major. do you think the russians of the time being have been successful in turning what americans want to be a proxy war? into a war where all the participants are manifested. now, if i go back to this, but his doctor started, you can go back. a group of them will be the happened. and subsequently as even probably for the you could, indians were training then the train, where modern was nice by the west need, especially because the last 6 to 7 years when the war commenced, even before the mobilization was been commenced. and you should be, one will be made that they weren't expectations, that this one by, nor back to the it might be mobilize ation that the russians are big,

big size and better would fizzle out in time for some kind of wash and big. but know when the what happened initially, certainly it was of water between the show and grain. time as possible. i think. and when you see the statements of the speech of food in and on 28th of september, he says it's the watering of a she gave the gender when, when you talk about water or it cannot mix of sanction water, that's an issue of moments. thanks and then a murphy finish was on. so while you gone states the only award, and did you want to go one way. so it's not a war only between ukraine and, and russia. that's the one on the front. yes. but then there is immense amount of roxy support that comes into your green, which actually facilitates the well in the big one when you take

a step back into any war, see even a little by john and i really was 2 years ago. there was of what been get it out by by confused from our site. so the proxy can please always give morgan to supporting the belligerents to hide the war. but at least in general, i think there is a difference between supporting various parties because you want to achieve your local interest and using a country specifically to attack your adversary. where's the chicken? where does the ag, in this case, when, when we look at the, you know, this whole balance of power between russia and the west of santa new fact is that the initiative to commence the one was taken by this, you know, right? it's by the water water, you got one by this for the wall. so the initiative was taken by the shop and subsequently the risk he had been invest not. it was not that those do the plan

support, but i agree with you today. if that has been and then change and will be, was the question on the, on the line for the front line, it is done because of the assistant boy by the best. otherwise, we all knew the caliber the been forces at 5 the one without the support of the best it would have been bell. my impossible for you to stand before the might of the, the she was, i know that the indians, i appreciate russian literature. so i will allow myself to call one of the classical russian writers and check of who wrote once that if a gun is on the war in the opening scene, it is supposed to fire towards the end. the tension in russia anita has been going on for quite some time, and russia has been signaling its extreme displeasure with nato expansion plans for quite some time. and yet, for some reason, i think that there was

a deep belief in the west that russia would not act and would not use military force to defend what it sees as the strategic interest. i wonder why is that, why is there so much surprise in the west that russia, with commands these military operations. after all the efforts diplomatic efforts to come to some sort of negotiated agreement with the west regarding ukraine and the, regarding the expansion of nato sale. so the issue comes up is what does exist in ship crisis when a nation says that i'm having existential crisis, the show was always a stick thing, this obvious and that the need to has been ill. she for a water and many of the a medical, all of the re, enrique us in georgia and dogs and all those who have stated that they go, well, it's not good morgan who is this kind of but it says the show is, has a guess. you can, so this thing was coming for last 15 years simply from 2008 on 3. it's not that

it's suddenly sprung up on one fine day. but having said that, there is a buffet, a still conventional war that's been going across the water watch that they mentioned there was, i was going back to the 914 and i can see. so we were not expecting this was to be what it was, not, i think a walk to begin. but i want to ask you as a, as a person who has deepest respect with the military strategy and this is the, are, this is the science. this is war at the end of the day, something that people study that they strategize about. do you think russia had any other means defending what is being this strategic interest? and i think you would agree with me that, you know, not having made it to close is in the interest of russian, most of the people, most of the military analysts, i talk to every, even if they don't like boots in the russia, have any other means of its disposal to just bomb its interest and to repair the

major from encroaching ever closer to the borders. look we, what was your community? have seen that kind of goes waters to be pattern mango and we are the 1st ones to stay warm or not. so lead one option to avoid the water must be taken away to work if it is. i know why the naturally so you don't to see that that, you know, all the options have been tried and even by the russians before they commenced. what i don't think that would be true. okay. did it be more direct and specific? what else could russia have done? and i asked you in good faith as somebody who's good will both to ukrainian or russian. so we have best relation that you why i think, i mean, we have best relation that we missed to have a dog to the one. but, you know, see, look at the biplanes of the dependence that ukraine has on totally. so if you will

do what you have done

in dealing with the situation between you great and you have many whites i'm sure we would have a great amount of a bill. we are a bit show us bring a those don't get on to a denial of this information c as in macro as that nickel was been dead wrong. so you know, there was waste. let's continue the discussion after a very, very short break. if you ah, a

in united states has always had a variety of tools to use and tags on other countries. economic sanctions are often just the beginning. another thing you like to do is place some military pressure on the country that you're talking about here. and there has to be an effort to demonize that country and the leader of that country. we have a responsibility for the whole and we need to make rules for the rest. because without out there we can do

ah ah, well condemning world for it. with cash sharma, i retired lieutenant general of the indian army and distinguished fellow at the canada international foundation lieutenant general before a. 5 a break we were talking about how these war could have been avoided, but it's already a reality. have to deal with it as it is. i'm sure, you know, a few days ago the russian president announced partial mobilization, which caused a lot of and easing the russian society, which i'm up until recently had followed this conflict from the television screens . now it has to draw the reservists into the field and you know, many people while supporting abstract decisions of the government. still quite a different day about it when they have to contribute to that with that own efforts

. so i wonder how do you think that move to join more reserve is that we're talking about 300000 people. how do you think it will change the dynamics of this conflict? that's an interesting thing. firstly, i believe the give us see the strategic miscalculations of by the russian. because even though the war was misunderstood, depend of watson, that is possible, misunderstood the kind of support and they go, sions will come and some of the many other issues of the the best. and now i am getting anxious on the point of motor don't reach. so one you showed a few of the is the mobilize this and that has been ordered on september, which is 200000 soldiers and taken the point of motor don't end up being get into mobilize ation band always ends in this scenario by drawn beginning of the because

miscalculation was the point was that the russian forces brought to bear against you, claim people were studying the war said that the quantum of was that didn't wanted russian bellows or against to bennett, whose audience, so me was brought to the institution to do that. stuff, so that is why there was, what else would you be getting out of the western district of the district from ben ruth on to the don basque area about that. yes, this is not how switching a good awesome good housing area. well, believe ition, always not having said that there are many negative negatives are really meant to be use. what's the, what the quality of man is that those people who are construction then all of these and they will join the so they want to be off on scription and how soon will they

come? i think andrea saying that the the sions are attempting to freeze the line. so if i the lines of contact and we had this before the, when it's been. so the are in a hurry to get forces to bring about some type of freezing of lines, which i know actually shipped don't much. well, this is actually what i've heard from some of the russian analysts as well that these new troops will be deployed. not so much as frontline soldiers with rather as sort of proxy border guards that we'll have to take care of this expanding character. and we're talking about 100000 square kilometers where, you know, 4 regions of your brain where the referenda for joining russia are taking place this, this very minute as, as with yeah, i wonder, what do you think will be significant of this potential changes or borders in this entire conflict, i mean, this is not a confirmed decision yet,

but the judging from preliminary figures, the overwhelming majority of people who are still leaving those territories, they wanna join russia. so if that happens, what do you think that would mean for the trajectory of the conflict? so if this for if the defendant takes place and people i'm not to be venturing into a windshield offender. my thought was since the opinions also from it also is good and so she does the more no, i don't see an end to this one. maybe the water we have says fire. but at that hard make crimea, or guy me, i was taken over the sessions, but the guy, me always got in the minds of the canadians and all the same time will be working. so all the issues are, have some more issues off of the c o r value of all these issues will give me the best on back for

a very long time to come. this is not and be, even if it is a sci fi, is not working as our why don't the mystery agree with me? there is always pros and cons and that there is no a perfect strategy for decision making, especially when you, when you deal with conflict. but what i'm hearing from, again, some of the russian analysts is that when taking the decision to support the referenda, i didn't put in also had that military sort of strategy in mind in the sense that even those territories, those changes are now under constant bombardment. by western and especially american weapons, high precision weapons, but even considered by russia as, regardless of whether they're west recognizes, not it is themselves as part of, you know, its own territory. it was using different strategy with different weapons to defend it. do you think that stands in the russian position is likely to change western

calculus or do you think it was some of the western sponsors of this conflict? i'm going to also seek to up the ante. i don't see any landing coming from the best to see the russian friend was heavy, automobile bombardment, fire par historically. that was part of the about the didn't do the same thing and they didn't, they didn't do it. and if it did so me did. but did did this and that you so there is a difference, a was the be kind of 5 bob that the best as the into you pinions. i don't think they. ready will end up so this is this line 9 of them with them and they give it that line up. and then it says despite what they space and whatever. and they will also be people behind to see the columnist, you know, all these private military companies will be on simply nit picking and targeting.

it isn't like what happened in play me, i so i don't see any kind of what the situation when they get us or why i think we are reaching the point. now, you mentioned people behind the scenes. ukrainian nationalists have historically venerated traditional parts isn't guerrilla warfare, even joseph stalin, back in the fifty's refuse iris is 2nd school. in the process foolish, we are now seeing even an economic literature more and more support from western and american. what would these kind of insurgency, how do you think russia should address it as, as a threat? again, not from a moral perspective, but from strategic and tactical perspective. she did, i will get on with the, you know, it will become, you know, it was a full time. it was sort of this issues off on spent in so many of them the new

because the population, even if the friend of this or and if it comes all those of the sites, they will be substantial population. this been not be in the list. everybody is not going to believe that because, i mean if you look at their figures for the referenda, the support is overwhelming. and again the crimea, and example. sure there were some people who were not very happy with the russians coming in. but the overwhelming majority of people in crimea supported it and crimea by and large, but it's based pretty peaceful since 2014, when it changes national affiliation. so i see a streak of nationalism which was as not appreciated even before the water began. so that streak of nationalism and you are euclidean despite the fact that they were new and all these and all that was be,

be over the alley. and we know all the new, not the same years back. but having said that, be would be a person bit of people who wouldn't target the depth of the lines of communication . so you have to establish good now the, the armed forces and i've done them steps to that side of things like what we did is i'm going to start at one time created lead to the areas where, you know, there would be protection the system, a new system, it will evolve and otherwise, even one blas makes, this was the one issue into a bad one. now you mentioned before that there is a difference in which was a thought before. and if you actually look at the way the russians conducted the operation, a rather slow movement, they tried to avoid any urban warfare. they didn't bomb cds like, for example, them hurt and didn't even do russian deed in, in gauze. and during the 2nd year or so, there was

a different approach towards i think both russian own military forces and the local populations. do you think that says something? do you think that perhaps explains why the, initially, the russian didn't have these, you know, great success that you and others were expecting simply because they decided that they will take it as low as it needs to be. for the sake of, you know, 1st of all protected people, but also making this success more last thing. they haven't done it, but this is the kind of found the forces are made. but they didn't do it. they didn't do it and be in on the give side of it when they did it, and many of them done it. this is of mass destruction in the areas on the hunt because in all the fire i wanted this nuance don't, don't be a typical force to watch sports on horseback. there's a different thing. the give site was washing and they didn't break s and have some

they haven't on the side with, i mean there has been, have been since yesterday. all was a part of the friend was looking for a different man and from various i'm sick don't really and middle study each one of different. i think that has met it in your argument. said that there was a dying down of the military and by the political mouse in the hall the was before . and that's one of these are the points that i also needed somebody is the media learning point as to the minute to start the diesel. now be in, by the want to go to my list of how this is done at the time. you know, if i may, i want to ask you one last question. me, you mentioned the, the point of no return a couple of times and i think i would, i would even say that we have reached it already. because referenda again, regardless of whether they're west or the world recognizes them are irreversible.

you know, russia is not going. busy to turn and walk back away from that, but you can also argue that they present an opportunity for all the sides to sort of count them also caught their future losses and decide on what they're going to do next. is it likely at this point, do you think there will be a sobering moment for all the sides involved to try to assess the situation and perhaps change that strategy? if that happens, it would be good, but i don't foresee rep wasn't opinion of it. i don't foresee because whatever you might say ukrainian being that the standard reason oral blast or, i mean the auto glass if i had some will, is not business. and neither is of course, you know, leave with us and not as good as with what he so the fact is that they was the, are that it has been, it rankled in the mind euclidean population,

the government for all that good. see ok. what is done is done? no, it won't happen. it doesn't happen. you will have any loss of that. if the guy that goes for generations are, well, let you know, generally we have to leave it there. thank you very much for sharing your thoughts in such a direct way. thank you for watching hope to hear again next week on was apart. ah, a ah. ah, ah, in louisa hunter,

russian state little never. i've side as i'm phoning those. i'm skiing with eclipse in 55 when. okay, so mine is group i'm speaking with. we will van in the european union, the kremlin. yup. machines. the state on russia for date and school ortiz spoke neck, given our video agency, roughly all band to on youtube with me. so what we got to do is identify the threats that we have. it's crazy, even foundation,

let it be an arms race is on offense. very dramatic development. only personally and getting to resist. i don't see how that strategy will be successful, very difficult. time time to sit down and talk with my thumbs up or down. legally i move like weird young hold. the jungle is in a network that i was getting myself was sort of in that. what's going on? yeah, i've done this on the business of it. when i know you've been wonderful, but i think it's enough for somebody to glad they should love to look at it. i don't live here so it will be interesting.