ah, with a with a don't finish with our with

hello and welcome to cross talk. we're all things are consider now peter, annabel russians don't bluff. they act with the induction of 4 ukrainian regions into russia. it should be clear to all moscow is determined to achieve all the goals it set out at the start of this conflict. in the meantime, the west is in a panic. there are panic is irrational and dangerous. ah, to discuss these issues and more, i'm joined by my guess, martin j america. she's an award winning journalist and commentator. and in budapest we have toward semi reli. he is a podcast for at the gaggle which can be found on youtube and locals, or a gentleman cross that goes on the back. that means you can jump anytime you want. and i was appreciated. i started out with george in budapest,

georgia and title in this program, political facts, and over the last few days, some political facts have made themselves loud and clear for us. we have the sabotage of the north stream pipelines and it's pretty obvious who did it. i don't want to dwell on it, but we have to dwell on the fact that it is no longer going to be of any practical use for keeping europe warm and keep its industry moving through this winter. also, the 2nd important political fact where the outcomes of the referendums that were held in ukraine and their induction, all but official right now into russia. and so here we have, here we are, we have a complete break between europe and russia and almost every single sense right now . and we have ukraine going under going under a massive transformation, which all 3 of us could have easily predicted and actually impacted your thoughts. george? no, this is a very good introduction. what really happened now is

a disastrous outcome that was entirely predictable once on the way back on the policy are using your grade in order to destroy russia. because what is really happened is that your brain continues to diminish. so we have the 1st phase was the loss of crimea back in 2014. now we have these 4 regions that are now lost forever, as all of this tool that we have for a few months from so can realist for a policy think that, well, maybe we could revise this to, you know, we'll have a mid spring that's gone. that's not, that's not happening anymore. and now says the west,

the glad go. we're going not nothing changes. we're going to continue to pour in on your brain. we're going to go on fighting forever. well, then, much more of your brain is going to be lost. there it goes, well this reaches boulders of a black sea coast, you know, it's just going to be a more team. would you ship all over you? great. martin is them? burrell just brought the foreign policy chief of the you. he says makes it more difficult. even impossible for this war to end. well, that's really quite interesting. it's because in considering the fact that the, they're the ones that want to continue it. and i, i finally, really curious for the war to an end the way he wants to see. but this is the point, this is the breach. these, this is, these are the political facts that i'm talking about. you know, you can share a referendums and all of that, it doesn't make any difference on the ground. ok,

that's the problem here. and this is what the west is done. there, there rattle is rhetorics and putting in nations and do you crate. that's it. that's their only policy. and they don't have an outcome that is even within the realm of possibilities. marber broke up a minor miracle. how he got the children's 1st, but we should remember there's a stitch up them in the between the european groups in brussels to always give that post to a socialist for many trying to come country. so he was in line for it and he got the job, but he's joke, this is the same. brill don't forget the, when the war kicked off, did not make a beeline to put to putin and moscow that she went to washington. and made this rather absurd, no speech. talking about her stepping on a weston and strength against russia, you know, talking up a war mike,

who went to moscow macro, being a more respected western leader that can actually talk, talk and represent the european union super really couldn't even represent you. he was sympathetic. he was, he was so weak and ineffective. he had to do his little rent on the stage next to his left wing. so if this buddy biden, but i think come, we got to thinking wrong, you know, and it's amazing how so much time passes and you thinking is we come when this is really only a question of time. you know, and we see people at girl make these ridiculous statements, you know, but the truth, the truth is, i mean, mean there's also playing a role here, but i think that you really got something wrong. and when we see such things as the know stream pipelines being blown up, you know, it's amazing, isn't it? how so few people in the west actually just drew breath and ask a few simple questions like why enough were pushing blow up his own oil pipeline.

when he could just switch it off, you know, as he did recently with it's league, you know, i mean, he doesn't need to do, do the history on x of closing, explodes isn't doing this, you know, come on to run things which are probably going to make a, a, b, or c rather moving hollywood at some point. you know, we've lost the plot where most of the narrative, you know, there's a certain hopelessness now, amongst western countries, which is partly responsible while you have this love macros. a new plan for an e, you $2.00 where he's gonna, he's going to sort of master together $27.00 member states plus neighbors let you k, ukraine and turkey to try and actually fast track big decision policy making. and the cost of that list that are cool, it and the you are me, but i can assure you, it isn't the army. it's been on the record, you know, the beginning of the french presidency last year. yeah. she said we need on me. so

this is what's in the pipeline because i do actually believe, you know, so don't think he actually believes that you are me. we had soldiers from, from the spain, with blue on bands on the shoulders that would actually deter it in you create that . it would scare him. it would push him back, you know, and this is the way. busy thinking that they don't understand for to understand how that i think they did that once it was under the poll your, we know how that george also the ukrainian president zalinski is going to be a hold of his arms and said, i'm not going to happen anymore. wow, is it anybody cares? why would you talk? there's a lensky in the 1st place when you can probably call somebody in washington. george . yes, and it's not as though couldn't particularly wants to talk to him. says he is openly

said the people in charge in here, what is the purpose of the united states? i mean they, they have no decision making capabilities, which, you know, because when those supposed to be in agreement signed in the sample in march, he was told in no uncertain terms you want to sign the agreement. so let's say that this is key is no good. now what's interesting, you know, this is that he then presented, know why i went to class for application to nature. and then a unanimous approval of this because he knows that he's been told by no sensible members of major, no way. we're going to sign up on this. even jake saw a little bit about this and a barrel. oh,

the that's not really the, the main issue so, so that was, that's so like a dub. any kind of big question. i mean, what if, if ukraine did miraculously become part of nato, then nato and russia would be in a state of war. i mean, if they, even the very thought of having ukraine in nato at this moment breaks all the rules of nato membership. i mean they, they blow up pipeline, they change the rules, they change everything in the middle of the game and then point the finger, the other guy think you did this martin. reflect upon that. go ahead. yeah. i'm, you know, as a journalist i'm, i'm assume shame to be the for the state which is playing a huge role in all, you know, i mean the media really is telling the line on this not answer from the west on this the, the history on exit blowing up pipelines and pointing the finger at through to,

you know, i wonder where, where that whether so leading, i mean whether, whether we will actually at some point, hold journalists or major organizations to account. you know, i mean the, the whole question of nature membership is george race. you know, it's hilarious isn't that we, we probably don't realize just how weak the west is when it comes to actually go into war with, with the service. you know, we talk the talk because the military spending, you know, even if germany spent a 100000000000 years to ramp up this military, you know, and, and now we're talking about in the, you, me, we don't have the strength, courage, the fortitude, you know, and put in those that and this idea of ukraine joining nature is just hilarious because, you know, it's just a one more p all just us. so i think for nature, you know, i mean journalist can, can pump out this absolute guff about nor did not stream one into being blown up. you know, look at, look at the realities of this, of this,

this we can call and i to terrorism. you know, i don't actually went on the record and said, we will stop with pipelines, you know, and his is half with deputy harris did the same thing. you know why jim is not joining up the lines because they're told not to, that's all. that's not the kind of story. so don't you think now that i, i guess a civilian infrastructure is on, on the chess board now. ok. i mean, that's good. yeah. just after the attack this out of the north stream pipeline, or a new baltic by going was introduced. so i don't know something could happen to that, i suppose. yeah, i think i think biden is playing it in terms coming up. so the timing of this is very interesting, but i think also it's all about business, you know, the american and n g companies are cleaning up. and the idea is the european countries become more and more dependent on america in terms of energy dependency,

but also political as well. there is a, you know, and, and that deficit may well, why don't as the months go post when more and more countries start taking a different viewpoint of what we're doing, a new crane to start asking some, some difficult questions. i kind of relationship martin between the temperature going down and eventually acts asking some serious questions. you think there's somehow related it will actually intensify? i think the next few weeks when people really start suffering, i mean horrendously suffering, suffering the, even our grandparents probably couldn't even imagine in the 2nd world war during the blitz along. for example, when, when that suffering starts, i think biden is very much aware of. it's been fine and must be his. his administration must be incredibly disappointed in how things are going. and when he looks at european union, you know, until that explosion of that pipeline. which of course, he did the idea that the american, i mean i've, people are so incredibly naive,

you know, they'd be, i've read articles where people actually question whether you know, the but the america, this country of great moral. ready to choose will actually do such, you know, i haven't just been here. we have to go to a short break. and after that short break, we'll continue our discussion on some real estate with our ah ah ah ah ah

ah, welcome back to grossbach were all things are considered i'm funeral. well this is the home addition to remind you were discussing some real news. ah ok, let's go back to martin right before went to the break. you want to finish up your point, please do. well, the point is that things are not happening quickly enough by them in europe. they need a catastrophe to unfold much, much more quickly,

up until that point where the pipeline was blown up. you had this preposterous situation where the e was bang on about creating sanctions against russia, which wasn't even past, but a number of countries still taking gas and oil. so you know, for lincoln to say, i think yesterday, this was a great thing in the opportunities. you preempted me because that's exactly the question i have your georgia and the secretary of state said that the north stream explosions are a tremendous opportunity. i mean, again, this is it, this is all their, their propaganda right now. this is, you know, this is an opportunity for a energy graham today, so to, to create a very submissive europe which i'm never really interested because you need lose their productivity. do you think the americans going to sell and g on the cheap? i doubt it. ok. these are private companies,

they're going to gouge all they can because their customers, their newfound customers are going to be in such desperate need. so, you know, the whole thing about, you know, the european union was 2 things. the promise was prosperity and security. they have neither and the you are just make it even worse, george. yes, of course, this was entirely obvious from the beginning, and there was the united states back starting back in 2004 with the orange revolution that was going to use your brain in order ultimately to diminish and then destroy russia. and europe was going to get in the way and from the start, you're a member victoria new choice words. right? yeah, exactly. a follow the american line. and it would have been obvious . it was obvious. you know, here they started the imposing the mother of all sanctions. the europeans were

going to suffer because it was the europeans who are the most dependent on russian energy, russia. and so now, you know, with clearly the americans were concerned that with winter coming, going to be strong protest in europe. and pressure would grow on sergeant shows to knock it up, come to an agreement with russia and get that note street to bike line. go and you know, who to send in some accounts that the shanghai corporation organization. if you want gas just on the wow and we've got gas and you know, we can look at it, we can see reading the polls in germany the other night the party is rising and they are explicitly saying, hey, turn on the screen to. so clearly this is the united states was very concerned that we're going to go in europe to finally, you know, talk some sense, get these

a gas coming, and the american step in and brought it to. and so now, you know, the european economy is in a tailspin and you know, the worst of all industries are moving out of germany to the united states, say, well, you know, with our energy supplies in the united states, we don't have it anymore in germany. money it's, it's interesting that i constantly phrase this as like nato's warren russia and george and i have discussed on our podcast the guy we have the russians are using a new term over the last few weeks. the collective west. ok, but there is another conflict going on here and it's a war on western war on germany. i mean, it's really extraordinary to me, the length of the you will do to batter down and germany. we still have the hope, the praise keep the russians out, the germans down and the americans in i. so i thought that was the cold war paradigm. i actually survived the cold war because we're seeing it right now. yeah

. ready but i think it's right to the americans should fear germany, because no matter which way things go in the next few months. you know, it's clear that germany will take more of the role more of a leading role on behalf of the and also prison interests. i mean, you know, it's not just about increasing military spending, which, you know, she was pulled off. i mean, it was quite quite something to actually present that to the panama. but i'm not sure how to face the opprobrium from media of people who would say, well, hang on, you know, we don't really want history to repeal. so we don't want another, you know, a military situation that we had in the, in the late thirties. but, you know, germany is there are signs that germany is developing as a superpower on its own. i think the, the move towards being a big military power. and then looking for partners just written about and recent articles in germany has had the not in the week wink from

a number of countries from said, well look in a, if you will do a bit of peacekeeping here. and then you want to, you want to invade a few countries in the middle, it will probably support you're going to go along with that black. she's already going to you, me in the making on the german side. not to mention the one i mentioned on the french side, so it's quite normal. i think that the americans will look at germany as a sort of adversary. now, as someone, the, the can't be trusted to pull the line, but it is much, much worse to come. because if france goes ahead, america goes ahead with this new european communities model has, you know, this will alienate the americans and the nature even further. and this idea of this notion is wet dream. the french general zoe, interviewed in 2008 of and the european pillar within nato will come about. and i, i can't see anything positive on the american side of that, you know, slowly the credibility of nature starts to wind down. and it loses stops, loses edges our, this influence when it has to refer to europe on some of these big decisions. if it

doesn't have your it with it, in some of the hot spots around the world, it can be quite difficult for it to function. we should never forget the before the ukraine will started, native had a serious credibility problem that a real problem with this image around the world. and, and so ukraine war and to, to the source on it, done it quite a favor, i think, you know, managed to pull of all over the lives of a lot of people in europe. ready to say, oh look, actually nature does have a role, you know, but people don't really understand. you can talk to talk so long before as a military organization, you actually have to walk the walk. you actually have to face people and face bullets and face artillery, and i don't as ever going to happen. so in my view, in the longer game nature will always have this credibility problem. well, i think, i think the outcome of this conflict in ukraine will be definitive for the few do in game. and if george, it's really interesting i'm, i'm glad martin brought this all up because they, we've talked a great length in the past. about nato is basically at the top of the ladder. ok,

it's not. it's not the un nato that are parallel. no, it's it. nato now is dictating you policy and get to who to go back to martin's point here, who's going to be the top dog of nato. it, you know, the germans would like it. we've, we've talked about with chart. and so to said over the last few weeks, it's historically, it's very scary, but it wasn't given much coverage here. of course, the americans want to keep it as theirs. and in the chrome is making a pitch in the absence of anglo merkel. you know, his own pitcher and a so here we have, i think that the nato is going to absolve it so very badly in this conflict. it may even shatter it altogether. and the u is that is a huge casualty too, as well. and it's all about is going to be top dog of this military alliance that should have been dissolved 40 years ago. go ahead church. well, it wasn't dissolved on the country as nato visited,

so that it's going to be a global military alliance. and we'll talk about global. so the idea roughly speaking is, as the americans conceive it is that, well will be a kind of a division of labor. so we have your, you know, we'll have germany, our loyal deputy marshall that will be in charge of the military in europe while we can then move into asia and do our containment policy towards china in asia. and the problem that they have is they really don't know how to fight this war. ukraine, because alone is a, if you put all the numbers on paper, why look at are strong, we are, you know, so the countries you out all week true. so not really on the way we were so strong compared to russia. yeah, but you don't have any means. well, actually fighting a war in ukraine. i mean how, how this even happen. i would need to be able to move into your brain. and without

essentially russia destroying nature, infrastructure destroying a field before you ever even got anywhere near your grade, or even if the americans try to bring in forces, what else do you great? it can happen. so this is just that way. you know, you have to use the old phrase dissipate, but i, you know, you add it all up. well, maybe powerful alliance. how are we going to fight a war? yeah, well martin, that, i mean people have told me, i'm very openly and honestly, is that at least in the 1st few months of the conflict, you're nato countries said the junk that they had in the, in the, in the, in the shed outside, you know, that they didn't need anymore, and they've and then we've gotten to the point where, well they're passing a spending bills to actually build equipment that doesn't even exist yet to be sent there or maybe next year. again, it shows that destroyed the destruction of the pipelines. shows that they do not

want to have any kind of diplomacy to end the conflict their, their goal is to continue to lead russia. and so it's all about, you know, who's got the time. and i've been over the last 2 weeks about all of my guess who's got the clocks and he's got the time and every single one says the russians have bo your thoughts. yeah, i think the key thing here is that i think there's a real fear amongst you release that we're going to run out of time that we're not going to get through this winter without them huge political upheaval, riots a breakdown of criminals, of law and order and you know, some of these governments are going to stop toppling. and when will some one a lot less when governments you have trouble because of such issues, you know, usually the replaced by right wing governments and this, and then you get this follow up. you get this momentum of people actually taking

power within the european parliament by right wing seeks as well, which is a massive nightmare for the, for the, for the federalist and brussels are around the shows that, you know, so it really is all about on time. and i think time is running out and whether we will actually get to february or march before the whole project starts falling to pieces real. i think i think we really made, i think the leaders really made a massive misjudgment. you know, we look when it started, you know, it's amazing how bras, johnson and britain actually managed to throw his weight behind the grill, in terms of promising money and standing firm with nature and all that. i'm being the leader. incredibly, he didn't actually have to face any account palmer people of britain life argued. i recently wrote one of my opinion base is that we want, we need in the west of safety checks, you know, safety caches on huge policy decisions. so, you know, our hardware leader,

so if you look, if you notice are becoming more, more stupid, we're going down exactly what it is. there's no check on this political here as all the time we have here. i want to thank my guess in budapest and, and in medication, i want to thank you for watching us here. are the see you next, the remember? ah ah, ah, yes, absolutely. well, with to look a little bit with some of the street people when enough to shut down, can we just not sure somebody who can watch some stuff done with

all the little bundles somebody wrote up with with a minute and it was up here at the office with a photo

with ah, this is one of the places that the ukrainian military had destroyed off to getting an anonymous tip off our t investigates. devastating artillery shelling in luke gown. scout speaks to ed dick tinney. he said he was hired by ukraine to identify civilian infrastructure targets along after he gave me the money and left there was shelling at this address and i heard from people that civilians died, that we did up up if we don't want to have ties with france, and we have new partners with whom we're already working with. also ahead in the program burkina faso real.