to discuss these issues and more, i'm joined by my guess, martin j america. she's an award winning journalist and commentator. and in budapest we have to send me, well, here's a podcast for, at the goggle, which can be found on youtube and locals are joining cross that goes in effect. that means you can jump any time you want, and i would appreciate it. let's start with georgia in budapest, georgia and title in this program, political facts, and over the last few days. some political facts have made themselves loud and clear for us. we have the sabotage of the north stream pipelines and it's pretty obvious who did it. i don't want to dwell on it, but we have to dwell on the fact that it is no longer going to be of any practical use for keeping europe warm and keep its industry moving through this winter. also, the 2nd important political fact where the outcomes of the referendums that were held in ukraine and their induction, all but official right now into russia. and so here we have, here we are, we have

a complete break between europe and russia and almost every single sense right now . and we have ukraine going under going under a massive transformation, which all 3 of us could have easily predicted and actually impacted your thoughts. george? no, this is a very good introduction. ah, what really happened now? is a disastrous outcome that was entirely predictable. once on the west bar on the policy of using ukraine in order to destroy russia. because what is really happened is that your brain continues to diminish. so we have the 1st phase was the loss of crimea back in 2014. now we have these 4 regions that are now

for this all of this tool that we have heard a few months from so realist foreign policy is that, well, maybe we could revise this to, you know, we'll have a mid 3 that's got that's not, that's not happening anymore, and now lee says west to glad go. we're going not nothing changes. we're going to continue to pour in on the ukraine. we're going to go on my thing forever. well, then, much more of your brain is going to be lost. there it goes. well, this reaches, well there's a black sea coast, you know, it's just a more team. would you ship over ukraine? martin is them burrell just brought the foreign policy chief of the you. he says, makes it more difficult even impossible for this war to end. well, that's really quite interesting. it's because, considering the fact that the,

they're the ones that want to continue it. and i, i finally, really curious for the war to an end the way he wants to see. but this is the point . this is the breach, these, this is, these are the political facts that i'm talking about. you know, you can share a referendums and all of that. it doesn't make any difference on the ground. ok, that's the problem here. and this is what the west is done. there their battle is rhetorics and putting in a munitions into ukraine. that's it. that's their only policy, and they don't have an outcome that is, even within the realm of possibilities. marber a minor miracle, how he got the children's 1st. but we should remember there's a stitch of them in the between the european groups in brussels to always give that post to a socialist for middle trying to come country. so he was in line for it and he got the but he's a joke. this is the same, brill don't forget the,

when the war kicked off, did not make a bee line to pay to putin and moscow as she went to washington. and made this rather absurd, no speech. talking about stepping up a western strength against russia. you know, talking up a war mac room, whence most macros being the more respected western leader that can actually talk, talk and represent the european union. super really couldn't even represent the sympathetic he was. he was so weak and ineffective. he had to do his little rent on the stage next to his left wing. so if this buddy biden, but i think come, we got to thinking wrong, you know, and it's amazing how so much time passes and you thinking is we can win. this is really only a question of time, you know, and we see people at their own make these ridiculous statements, you know,

but the truth, the truth is, i mean, i mean there's also playing a role here, but i think that you really got something wrong. and when we see such things as the know stream pipelines being blown up, you know, it's amazing, isn't it? how so few people in the west actually just drew breath and ask a few simple questions like why enough were pushing blow up his own oil pipeline. when he could just switch it off, you know, as he did recently with it's league, you know, i mean, he doesn't need to do, do the history on x of closing, explodes isn't doing these, you know, come on to run things which are probably going to make a, a, b, or c, run, move in hollywood at some point. you know, we've lost the plot, we lost a narrative. you know, there's a certain hopelessness now amongst western countries, which is partly responsible while you have this love microns, a new plan for an e u 2.0, where he's not going to, he's going to sort of muster together is a member state plus neighbors like u. k,

ukraine and turkey to try and actually fast track big decision policy making and the cost of that list that are cool. it and you on me, but i can assure you it is in the army. it's been on the record, you know, at the beginning of the french presence, you lost it. yes, he said, you are me. so this is what's in the pipeline. because if you actually believe, you know, stop, stop the thing, he actually believes that is out of the army. we had soldiers from, from the, been a lot of spain when it blew on bands on the show. so that would actually deter putin in you create that it would scare him, it would push it back, you know, and this is the way. busy thinking that they don't understand polluted, understand how that i think they did that once it was under the whole, you know, we know how that george also the ukrainian president zalinski is going to be on hold in his arms and said,

i'm not going to talk to them anymore. wow, is it anybody cares? why would you talk? there's a lensky in the 1st place when he can probably call somebody in washington. george . yes, and he's got a so couldn't particularly wants to talk to him. says he is openly said the people in charge in here, what is the purpose of the united states? i mean they, they have no decision making capabilities, which, you know, because when those supposed to be in agreement signed in a sample in march, he was told in no uncertain terms you want to sign the agreement. so yeah, there is no good. what's interesting, you know, this is that he then presented know why i went to class trans application to nature and then oldenburg came out

a few hours later. well, we need the unanimous approval of this because he knows that he's been told by no sensible members of major, no way. we're going to sign off on this, even jake sullivan to think a little bit about this. and also that's not really the, the, the main issue so, so that was that, that's a really kind of big the question. i mean, what if, if you frame did miraculously become part of nato, then nato and russia would be in a state of war. i mean, 8, they even the very thought of having ukraine in nato at this moment breaks all the rules of e. nato membership. i mean they, they blow up pipelines, they change the rules, they change everything in the middle of the game, and then point the finger of the other guy. i think you did this martin reflect upon that. go ahead. yeah, i'm, you know, as a journalist,

a shame to be the for the state which is playing a huge role in all, you know, i mean, the media really is a towing, the line on this narrative from the west on this, the history on exploring on pipelines and pointing the finger to, to and you know, i wonder where, where, where so leading and whether, whether we were actually at some point hold journalists or major organizations to account. you know, i mean, the whole question of nature membership is george race is solaris, and we, we probably don't realize just how weak the west is when it comes to actually going to war with the service. you know, we talk the talk because the military spending, you know, even if germany, to spend a 100000000000 years and to ramp up this military, you know, and, and now we're talking about in the army. we don't have the strength, the courage, the fortitude, and to,

to knows that. and this idea of ukraine joining nature is just hilarious because it's just a one more p on to source. so i think for nature, you know, i mean journalists can, can pump out this absolute guff about nordic, non stream wanting to being blown up, you know, look at, look at the realities of this, of this, this, we can call it an act of terrorism. you know, by them actually went on the record and said, we will stop with pipelines, you know, and his is half with deputy harris at the same thing. you know why jim is not joining up the lines because they're told not to, that's all. that's not the kind of stories on the think now i, i guess a civilian infrastructure is on, on the chess board now. ok. i mean, that's good. yeah. just after the attack this out of the north stream pipeline, or a new baltic by going was introduced. so i don't know some good happening to that,

i suppose. yeah, i think, i think biden is playing a midterm is coming up or so the timing of this is very interesting. but i think also it's all about business. you know, the american and energy companies are cleaning up. and the idea is that the european countries become more and more dependent on america in terms of energy dependency. we also political as well. there is a deficit, you know, and, and that deficit may well, why don't as the months go post when more and more countries start taking a different viewpoint of what we're doing in ukraine to start asking some, some difficult questions or how do you think there's some kind of relationship martin between the temperature going down and eventually acts asking some serious questions. you think there's somehow related it will actually intensify? i think the next few weeks when people really start suffering, i mean horrendously stuffing, suffering the, even our grandparents probably couldn't even mansion in the 2nd world war during

the blitz along. for example, when, when that suffering starts, i think biden is very much aware of its mean binding must be his, his administration must be incredibly disappointed in how things are going. and when he looks at european union, you know, it until that explosion of that pipeline, which of course, he did the idea that, that the american, i mean, people are so incredibly naive. you know, they'd be, i've read articles where people actually question whether you know, the, but the america, this country of great moral fortitude will actually do such a jump in here. we have to go to a short break. and after that short break, we'll continue our discussion on some real new stake with our ah ah, ah, a

ah no need to be i'm so glad they ship off that get what is the best time to go about them. this is a little bit of a lady named who didn't really know what i see school the car wasn't report backwards but some same. yeah. it's not that much scheme report card order. the status of a national krinski part of it, which it is said to jeff. so, i mean, i mean, you can even gone, can be comma, loosely though, and be a couple of somebody at the community that the comma a lovely knob is all like it's supposed to start out. like you said, affected dor only out of the july, the media with us. that's clear. but,

but then with the routing gospel movie, you're writing for you to close to full for soaking at them during the summer because at my cigna. but it was the reason i would show kathy so much, but we're can i let chris will? it was, it was the case was up there. then your big us over for you will go that they should receive a notice to pick up and that were still a little below vanessa, giving up with a welcome back to cross knock. were all things are considered. i'm peter. well, this is the home addition to remind you. we're discussing some real news. a

ok, let's go back to martin, right before we went to the break, you want to finish up your point. please do. well, the point is that things are not happening quickly enough to buy them in europe. they need a catastrophe to unfold much, much more quickly, up until that point where the pipeline was blown up. you had this preposterous situation where the e was bang on about creating sanctions against russia, which wasn't even past, but a number of countries still taking gas and oil. so you know, for lincoln to say, i think yesterday that this was a great thing in the opportunities you preempted me because that's exactly the question i have with the secretary of state said that the north stream explosions are a tremendous opportunity. i mean, again, this is, this is all their, their propaganda right now, this is, you know,

this is an opportunity for a energy gram today. so to, to create a very submissive europe, which i'm never really interested because you need lose their productivity. do you think the americans are going to sell and g on the cheap? i doubt it. ok. these are private companies. they're going to gouge all they can because their customers, their newfound customers are going to be in such desperate need. so, you know, the whole thing about, you know, the european union was 2 things. the promise was prosperity and security. they have neither and the you are just make it even worse, george. yes, of course, this was entirely obvious from the beginning, and there was the united states back starting back in 2004 with the orange revolution that was going to use your brain in order ultimately to diminish and then destroy russia. and europe was going to get in the way and, and from the start of europe, victoria new choice words. right?

yeah, exactly. is continue to follow the american line. and it will be obvious . it was obvious, you know, here soon as they started the imposing the mother of all sanctions, the europeans were going to suffer because it was the europeans who were the most dependent on russian energy, russia. and so now, you know, with clearly the americans were concerned that with winter coming, going to be strong protest in europe. and pressure would grow on sergeant schultz to knock it up. come to an agreement with russia and get that note street to bike line. go and you know, who to send in some account that the shanghai corporation organization. hey, you want gas just on, on the wow. and we've got gas. and you know, we can look at it, we can see reading the polls in germany, the out there, not

a party is rising. and they are explicitly saying, hey, turn on the screen to. so clearly this was the united states was very concerned that person is going to go in europe to say to finally, you know, let's talk some sense, get the slave gas coming. and the americans stepped in and brought it to an end. so now, you know, the european economy is in a tailspin and you know, the worst of all industries moving out of germany to the united states. a well, you know, with your energy supplies in the united states, we don't have it anymore in germany. money it's, it's interesting that i constantly phrase this as a nato's warren russia and george and i have discussed on our podcast. the guy we have the russians are using a new term over the last few weeks. the collective west. ok, but there is another conflict going on here and it's a war on western war on germany. i mean, it's really extraordinary to me,

the length of the you will do to batter down and germany. we still have the hope, the praise keep the russians out, the germans down in the americans in i said, but i thought that was the cold war paradigm. i actually survived the cold war because we're seeing it right now. ready but i think it's right to the american should fear germany, because no matter which way things go in the next few months. you know, it's clear that germany will take more of the role more leading role on behalf of the you and also prison interests. i mean, you know, it's not just about increasing military spending, which, you know, she was pulled off. i mean, it was quite quite something to actually present that to the palmer i get shit about. i'm not sure how to face the opprobrium from media of people who would say, well, hang on, you know, we don't really want history to repeal. so we don't want another, you know, a military situation that we had in the, in the late thirties. but, you know,

germany is there are signs that germany is developing as a superpower on its own. i think the, the move towards being a bigger ministry power and then looking for partners to written about and recent articles in germany has had the not in the week wink from a number of countries who said, well look in a if you will do a bit of peacekeeping here, and then you want to, you want to invade a few countries in the middle. it would probably support you. going to go wrong with that black. she's already going to you, me in the making on the germans side. not to mention the one i mentioned on the french side, so it's quite normal. i think that the americans will look at germany as a saw adversary. now, some of the, the can't be trusted to pull the lawyer, but it is much, much worse to come. because if the front goes ahead, macro goes ahead with this new european communities model is, you know, this will alienate the americans in any nature even further. and this idea of this notion is wet dream. the french general zoe, interviewed in 2008 of and the european pillar within nature will come about. and i,

i can't see anything positive on the american side of that. you know, slowly the credibility of nature starts to wind down and it loses stuff, loses edges our, it's influence when it has to refer to europe on some of these big decisions. if it doesn't have your it with it. in some of the hot spots around the world, it's can be quite difficult for it to function. we should never forget to before the ukraine will started, native had a serious credibility program and a real problem with this image around the world. and so you claim war and to, to the source on it, done it quite a favor, i think, you know, is managed to pull of all over the lives of a lot of people in europe to say, oh, well, actually nature does have a role. you know, but people don't really understand that you can talk the talk so long before as a military organization, you actually have to walk the walk. you actually have to face people and face bullets and face artillery. and i don't as ever going to happen. so in my view, in the longer game nature will always have this credibility problem. well, i think,

i think the outcome of this conflict in ukraine will be definitive for the few do in game. and george, it's really interesting i'm, i'm glad martin brought this all it because we've talked a great length in the past. about nato is basically at the top of the ladder. ok, it's not. it's not the un nato that are parallel. no, it nato now is dictating you policy and good to go back to martin's point here, who's going to be the top dog of nato? if you know the germans would like it, we've talked about what, what charging so to said over the last few weeks, it's historically, it's very scary, but it wasn't given much coverage here. of course the americans want to keep it as theirs. and in the chrome is making a pitch in the absence of anglo merkel, you know, his own pitcher. and so here we have, i think that the nato is going to absolve it's all very badly in this conflict. it may even shatter it altogether. and the u. is the, is

a huge casualty to as well. it's all about is going to be top dog of this military alliance that should have been dissolved 40 years ago. go ahead church. well, it wasn't dissolved on the country as nato visited. so that is going to be a global military alliance and we'll talk about global. so the idea, roughly speaking is as the americans conceive it is that, well will be a kind of a division of labor. so we have your, and i will have germany, our loyal deputy marshall not to be charge of the military in europe while we can then move into asia and do our containment policy towards china, asia. the problem that they have is they really don't know how to fight this war. ukraine, because alone is a, if you put all the numbers on paper, why look at how strongly are you going?

you know, so the countries you out all week true. so not really on them when we were so strong compared to russia. yeah, but you don't have any means. well, actually fighting a war in ukraine. i mean how, how this even happen. i would need to be able to move into your brain now without essentially russia destroying major infrastructure destroying, and they don't make reports. they don't, if you, before you ever even got anywhere near your grade or even if you americans try to bring in forces when elsewhere. you great, it does happen. so this is just that way. you know, you have to use the old phrase dissipate, but i get, you know, you add it all up. well, maybe powerful alliance. how are they going to fight a war? yeah, well martin, i mean, people have told me i'm very openly and honestly, is that at least in the 1st few months of the conflict, you're nato countries sent the junk that they had in the, in the, in the,

in the shed outside, you know, that they didn't need anymore, and they've and then we've gotten to the point where, well, they're passing a spending bills to actually build equipment that doesn't even exist yet to be sent there. or maybe next year. again, it shows the destroy the destruction of the pipelines, shows that they do not want to have any kind of diplomacy to end the conflict. their, their goal is to continue to leave russia. and so it's all about, you know, who's got the time, and i've been over the last 2 weeks about all of my guess who's got the clocks and he's got the time and every single one says the russians have bo your thoughts. yeah, i think the key thing here is that i think there's a real fear amongst you release that we're going to run out of time that we're not gonna get through this winter without huge political upheaval, riots a breakdown of criminal of law and order. and you know,

some of these governments are going to stop toppling and will some one, a lot of these left wing governments, your topple because of such issues. you know, usually the replaced by right wing governments and this, and then you get this follow up. you get this momentum of people actually taking power within the european parliament by right wing seeks as well, which is a massive nightmare for the, for the, for the federalists and brussels are running the show that, you know, so it really is all about one time and i think time is running out and whether we will actually get to february or march before the whole project starts falling to pieces real. i think i think we really made, i think the leaders really made a massive missed judgment. you know, we look when it started, you know, it's amazing how far is johnson in britain actually managed to throw his weight behind the grill, in terms of promising money and standing firm with nature and all that. i'm being

the leader. incredibly, he didn't actually have to face any account. see palmer people approach life argued . i recently wrote one of my opinion base is that we want, we need in the west, our safety checks, you know, safety caches on huge policy decisions. so, you know, our hardware leader, and so if you look, if you notice are becoming more, more stupid, we're going down exactly what it is. there's no check on this political link here as all the time we have here. i want to thank my guess in budapest and, and in medication, i want to thank you for watching us iraqi. see you next? i remember. ah ah, i mean to, with,

with you. i'm with

a lisa is going to be international owner. then international relations must not just be about our interest, but it should also be about certain lucy knowledge which can be respected by all parties. ah ah

ah, i'm a weird young hold the jungle was in and did not want that. i was getting myself well, so i've been nothing but a bundle with it when a bundle with the glad they shipped off it, get a thought system filled with everything that i see especially there.