for ukrainian regions into russia, it should be clear to all moscow is determined to achieve all the goals it set out at the start of this conflict. in the meantime, the west is in a panic. there are panic is irrational and dangerous. ah, to discuss these issues and more on joined by my guess martin j america. she's an award winning journalist, and commentator. and in budapest we have george semi welly. he is a podcast for at the gaggle which can be found on youtube and locals, or a gentleman cross that goes in effect. that means you can jump any time you want and i will appreciate it. i start out with george in budapest, george. i'm titling this program political facts and over the last few days, some political facts have made themselves loud and clear for us. we have the sabotage of the north stream pipelines and it's pretty obvious who did it. i don't want to dwell on it, but we have to dwell on the fact that it is no longer going to be of any practical

use for keeping europe warm and keep its industry moving through this winter. also, the 2nd important political fact where the, the outcomes of the referendums that were held in ukraine and their induction, all but official right now into russia. and so here we have, here we are, we have a complete break between europe and russia and almost every single sense right now . and we have ukraine going under going under a massive transformation, which all 3 of us could have easily predicted and actually impacted your thoughts. george, this is a very good introduction on what really happened now is a disastrous outcome that was entirely predictable. once on the west bar on the policy or using your grade in order

to destroy russia. because what does really happen is that your brain continues to diminish. so we have the 1st phase was the loss of crimea back in 2014. now we have these 4 regions that are now lost forever, as all of this tool that we have a few months from so realist foreign policy think that, well, maybe we could revise to, you know, we'll have a mid spring that's gone. that's not, that's not happening. anymore and now course the says the west, the glad go, we're going not nothing changes. we're going to continue to pour in arms of your brain. we're going to go on by thing forever. well then, much more of your brain is going to be lost. there it goes, well this reaches, well there's a black sea coast, you know,

it's just a more you sion over you. great martin, is them, burrell just brought the foreign policy chief of you. he says makes it more difficult even impossible for this war to end. well, that's really quite interesting. it's because, considering the fact that they're the ones that want to continue it. and i, i finally really curious for the war to end end the way he wants to see. but this is the point, this is the breach. these, this is, these are the political facts that i'm talking about. you know, you can share a referendums and all of that. it doesn't make any difference on the ground. ok, that's the problem here. and this is what the west is done. there, there. rattle is rhetorics and putting in a munitions and do you crate. that's it. that's their only policy. and they don't have an outcome that is even within the realm of,

of possibilities. mur bureau can't be taken seriously. i mean, the man's food is mine. a miracle. how he got the job and the 1st place we should remember there's a stitch up them in between european groups in brussels to always give that posed to a socialist for me to try and come to the country. so he was in line for it and he got the job, but he's a joke. this is the same. brill don't forget the, when the war kicked off, did not make a bee line to put to putin and moscow. that she went to washington. and made this rather absurd, been no speech. talking about stepping up a western strength against russia, you know, talking up a war mack who went to moscow macro being a more respected western leader that can actually talk talk and represent the european union super really couldn't even represent you. he was so pathetic. he was, he was so weak and ineffective. you had to do his little rent on the stage next to

his left wing. so if this buddy biden, but i think come, we got to thinking wrong, you know, and it's amazing how so much time passes and you thinking is we can win. this is really only a question of time, you know, and we see people at their own make these ridiculous statements, you know, but the truth, the truth is i mean major is also playing a role. but i think that you really got something wrong. and when we see such things as the know stream pipelines being blown up, you know, it's amazing, isn't it? how so few people in the west actually just drew breath and ask a few simple questions like why enough were pushing blow up his own oil pipeline. when he could just switch it off, you know, as he did recently with it's league, you know, i mean, he doesn't need to do, do the histrionics of closing slows isn't doing this, you know, come on to run things which are probably going to make a, a b or c run. who's in hollywood at some point?

you know, so we've lost a plot, we lost announcer, you know, there's a certain homelessness now amongst western countries of which is personally responsible. why you have this. don't love microns, a new plan for an a. so you $2.00 where he's, you know, he's going to sort of muster together 20 some member states plus my neighbors like you, k, you, crane and turkey to try and actually fast track big decision policy making and the cost of that list, or call it and you on me, but i can assure you, it is in the army. it's been on the record, you know, at the beginning of the french presence, you've lost it. you know, she said you are me. so this is what's in the pipeline. because if you actually believes, you know, stop, stop giggling, he actually believes they've had an eel army. they had soldiers from, from the, been a lot of spain, when it blew on bands on their shoulders. that would actually deter putin in you

create that it would scare him, it would push him back, you know, and this is the way they're thinking that they don't understand polluted, understand how that they did that once it was under the poll your, we know how that george, also the ukranian president zalinski is going to be holding his arms and said, i'm not going to have to put in any more. wow, is if anybody cares in why would you talk? there's a lensky in the 1st place when you can probably call somebody in washington. george . yes, and it's not as though in particularly wants to talk to him, that he is openly said, the people in charge in here. what is the purpose of the united states? i mean they, they have no decision making capabilities, which, you know, because when there was supposed to be an agreement signed in the sample in march, he was told to know you want not to sign this agreement. so yeah,

that is no good. now what's interesting, you know, this is that he then presented no i, i went to class trans application to nature and then oldenburg came out of you. i was like, well we need unanimous approval all of this because he knows that he's been told by you know, sense of all members of major, no way we're going to sign up on this. and even jake saw them a little bit about this. and also that's not really the main issue so, so that, that's a kind of big the question. i mean, what if, if you frame did miraculously become part of nato, then nato in russia would be in a state of war. i mean,

they even the very thought of having ukraine in nato as at this moment breaks all the rules of e. nato membership. i mean they, they blow a pipeline, they change the rules, they change everything in the middle of the game, and then point the finger at the other guy. i think you did this mark, reflect upon that. go ahead. yeah, i'm, you know, as a journalist, a shame to be the for the state, which is a huge role in all, you know, i mean, the major really is a towing, the line on this narrative from the west on this, the history on exploring pipelines and pointing the finger at, you know, i wonder where, where that with us leading i mean whether, whether we were actually at some point, hold journalists or major organizations to account. you know, i mean the oh crystal nathan membership is george raise. you know, it's hilarious isn't it? we, we probably don't realize just how weak the west is when it comes to actually go

into war with, with the service. you know, we talked the talk about the ministry spending, you know, even if germany spent a 100000000000 years to ramp up this ministry, you know, and, and now we're talking about in the, you army, we don't have that, the strength, the courage, the fortitude, you know, and put in those that and this idea of ukraine joining nature is just hilarious because it's just a one more tail just also i think for nature, you know, i mean journalists can, can pump out this absolute guff about nordic, not wanting to being blown up. you know, look at, look at the realities of this, of this, this, we can call an actor terrorism item. actually went on the record and said, we will stop these pipelines, you know, and his half with deputy harris did the same thing. why jim is not joining up the lunch because i told not to, that's all, that's not the kind of stories i don't think now that i guess civilian

infrastructure is on the chessboard now. ok, i mean that's just after the attack this out of the nor stream pipelines a new baltic pipeline was introduced. so i don't know something could happen to that, i suppose. yeah, i think i think biden is playing mid terms coming up. so the timing of this is very interesting, but i think also it's all about business, you know, the american l n g company is a cleaning up. and the idea is the european countries become more and more dependent on america in terms of energy dependency, but also political as well. there is a doctor that you know and, and that deficit may, will want and as the months go post, when more and more countries start taking a different viewpoint of what we're doing and ukraine is still asking. so some difficult questions. i kind of relationship martin between the temperature going

down and eventually acts asking some serious questions. you think there's somehow related it will actually intensify? i think over the next few weeks when people really start suffering, i mean horrendously, suffering, suffering, don't even our grandparents probably couldn't even imagine in the 2nd world war during the blitz along. for example, when, when that suffering starts, i think i don't, is very much aware of it. mean by that must be his, his administration must be incredibly disappointed in how things are going. and when he looks at european union, you know, it until that explosion of that pipeline, which of course, he did the idea that, that the american, i mean, people are so incredibly naive. you know, they'd be, i read articles where people actually question whether, you know, the, the america, this country of great moral fortitude will actually do such a jump in here. we have to go to a short break. and after that short break, we'll continue our discussion on some real new stake with our aah!

with ah, they all need to be, i'm so glad they ship off that get who, what is the best timing on the i do about them. this is a little bit of a complicated victim, lady new with what i say school for carbonate for backwards. but some claim you have something that might scheme importantly cut order the status of last week on your snow krinski part of the stairwell, which it said to jeff. so i knew the mean you to one that you that you don't can be coma loosened up and be a communist. somebody mp community that they've got

a lovely not all right. you supposed to this out. thank you so affected dor only out of the july the media with us. that's a good clear but. but then with the routing just opening when you're writing for you to full for soaking at them during the summer because of my seat. not with kathy so much, but we're can i love chris? was it was the case. there's any big. those who are free will go that they should receive a notice to pick up and that were still a little below vanessa. getting up was a welcome back to cross knock. were all things are considered. i'm peter bell. this is the home addition to remind you. we're

discussing some real news a ok, let's go back to martin. right before you into the break. you want to finish up your point, please do. well, the point is that things are not happening quickly enough to buy them in europe. they need a catastrophe to unfold much, much more quickly, up until that point where the pipeline was blown up. you had this preposterous situation where the e was bang on creating sanctions against russia, which wasn't even past, but a number of countries still taking gas and oil. so you know, for lincoln to say, i think yesterday that this was a great thing in the opportunities you preempted me because that's exactly the question. and i have your georgia and the secretary of state said that the north stream explosions are a tremendous opportunity. i mean, again, this is,

this is all their, their propaganda right now, this is, you know, this is an opportunity for a energy graham today. so to, to create a very submissive europe which i'm never really interested because in the, they've lose their productivity. do you think the americans are going to sell and g on the cheap? i doubt it. ok. these are private companies. they're going to gouge all they can because their customers, their newfound customers are going to be in such desperate need. so, you know, the whole thing about, you know, the, the european union was 2 things. the promise was prosperity and security. they have neither in the u. s. this is make it even worse, george. yes, of course, this was entirely obvious from the beginning, and there was the united states back starting back in 2004 with the orange revolution that was going to use your brain in order ultimately to diminish and

then destroy russia. and europe was going to get in the way and from the start of europe, victoria new choice words. right? yeah, exactly. is continue to follow the american line. and it would have been obvious . it was obvious, you know, here soon as they started the imposing the mother of all sanctions, the europeans were going to suffer because it was the europeans who are the most dependent on russian energy, russia. and so now, you know, with clearly the americans were concerned that with winter coming, we're going to be strong, protest in europe. and pressure would grow on sergeant shows to knock it up, come to an agreement with russia and get that note street to pipeline. go and you know, who to send some of the shanghai cooperation organization if you want gas. just

done on the wow. and we've got gas. and you know, we can look at it, we can see reading the polls in germany the other night. the party is rising and they are explicitly saying, hey, turn on the screen to play. this is the united states was very concerned that person is going to go in europe to say to finally, you know, this talk some sense, get the slave gas coming. and the american start in brought it to and so now you know, the european economy is in a tailspin. and, you know, the worst of all industries are moving out of germany to the united states. say, well, you know, with secure energy supplies in the united states, we don't have it anymore in germany. money it's, it's interesting that i've constantly phrase this as a nato's war on russia and we georgia, i've discussed on our part of the goggle we have the russians are using a new term over the last few weeks. the collective west. ok,

but there is another conflict going on here and it's a war on western war on germany. i mean, it's really extraordinary to me, the length of the you will do to batter down and germany. we still have the hope, the phrase, keep the russians out. the germans down in the americans in i said, i thought that was the cold war paradigm. i actually survived the cold war because we're seeing it right now. ready but i think it's right to the american should fear germany, because no matter which way things go in the next few months. you know, it's clear that germany will take more of the role more of a leading role on behalf of the and also prison interests. i mean, you know, it's not just about increasing military spending, which, you know, she was pulled off. i mean, it was quite, quite something to actually present that to the harmon. i'm not sure how to face the opprobrium from media of people who would say, well, hang on, you know,

we don't really want district repeal. so we don't want another, you know, a military situation that we had in the, in the late thirties. but, you know, germany is there are signs that germany is developing as a superpower on its own. i think the, the move towards being a bigger military power. and then looking for partners just written about and recent articles in germany has had the not in the week wink from a number of countries from said, well, looking to, if you will do a bit of peacekeeping here. and then you want to, you want to invade a few countries in the middle east would probably support you. going to go along with that black. she's already going to you me in the making on the germans side. not to mention the one i mentioned on the french side, so it's quite normal. i think that the americans will look at germany as a saw adversary now as someone that that can be trusted to pull the life. but it is much, much worse to come. because if the front goes ahead, america goes ahead with this new european communities. the model is, you know, this will alienate the americans in any nature even further. and this idea of this

notion is wet dream. the french general zoe, interviewed in 2008 of and the european pillar within nature will come about. and i, i can't see anything positive on the american side of that. you know, slowly the credibility of later starts to wind down and it loses stuff, loses edges our, his influence when it has to refer to europe on some of these big decisions. if it doesn't have your it with it. in some of the hot spots around the world, it's can be quite difficult for it to function. we should never forget the before the ukraine will started, native had a serious credibility program and a real problem with this image around the world. and so you claim war and put in the sort of done it, done it quite a favor, i think, you know, managed to pull the ball over the lives of a lot of people in europe to say, oh, well, actually nature does have a role. you know, but people don't really understand that you can talk the talk so long before as a military organization, you actually have to walk the walk. you actually have to face people and face

bullets and face artillery. and i don't that's ever going to happen. so in my view, in the longer game nature will always have this credibility problem. well, i think i think the outcome of this conflict in ukraine will be definitive for the future. we can go and get george. it's really interesting i'm, i'm glad martin brought this all it because we've talked a great length in the past. about nato is basically at the top of the ladder. ok, it's not. it's not the un nato that are parallel. no, it's, it. nato now is dictating you policy, and to go back to martin's point here, who's going to be the top dog of nato. it, you know, the germans would like it. we've, we've talked about with charting. so to said over the last few weeks, it's historically, it's very scary, but it wasn't given much coverage here. of course, the americans want to keep it as there's an m, a chrome is making a pitch in the absence of anglo merkel. you know, his own pitcher and

a so here we have, i think that the nato is good to absolve it so very badly in this conflict. it may even shatter it altogether and the use that is a huge casualty to as well. and it's all about who going to be top dog of this military alliance that should have been dissolved 40 years ago. go ahead church. well, it wasn't dissolved on the country as nato visited cell. it's going to be a global military alliance. and to talk about global. so the idea roughly speaking is as the americans conceive it is that, well will be a kind of a division of labor. so we have your, and i will have germany, our loyal deputy marshall that will be in charge of the military in europe while we can then move into asia and do our containment policy towards china in asia. and the problem that they have is they

really don't know how to fight this war ukraine, because a low is a, if you put all the numbers on paper, why look at how strong we are? because you know, so the countries you actually true, so not really on them is where we were so strong compared to russia. yeah. but you don't have any means. well, actually fighting a war in ukraine. i mean, half hour. this even happen. i would need to be able to move into your brain now without essentially russia destroying nature, infrastructure destroying, and of course, make reports. if you, before you ever even got anywhere near your grade, or even if you americans try to bring in forces. what else do you great? it can happen. so this is just that way. you know, you have to use the old phrase dissipate, but i, you know, you add it all up well naples alliance. how are we going to find a war? yeah, well martin, i mean, people have told me i'm very openly and honestly,

is that at least in the 1st few months of the conflict, you're nato countries sent the chunk that they had in the, in the, in the, in the shed outside, you know, that they didn't need anymore and they've and that, and then we've gotten to the point where, well they're passing a spending bills to actually build equipment that doesn't even exist yet to be sent there. or maybe next year. again, it shows that destroyed the destruction of the pipelines. shows that they do not want to have any kind of diplomacy to end the conflict, or their goal is to continue to leave russia. and so it's all about, you know, who's got the time. and i've been over the last 2 weeks about all of my guess who's got the clocks and he's got the time every single one says the russians have all your thoughts. yeah, i think the key thing here is that i think is a good is a real fear amongst you release that we're going to run out of time that we're not gonna get through this winter without huge political upheaval, riots

a breakdown of criminal. ready of law and order. and you know, some of these governments are going to stop toppling and will some one a lot less when governments your topple because of such issues. you know, usually the replaced by right wing governments and this, and then you get this follow up. you get this momentum of people actually taking power within the european parliament by right wing seeks as well, which is a massive nightmare for the, for the, for the federalist in brussels are around the show that you know, so it really is all about our time and i think time is running out and whether we will actually get to february or march before the whole project starts falling to pieces. i think i think we really made. i think the leaders really made a massive missed judgment. you know, we look when it started, you know, it's amazing how far is johnson in britain actually managed to throw his weight

behind the grill, in terms of promising money and standing firm with nature and all that and being the leader. incredibly, he didn't actually have to face any account palmer, the people have brought to life argued. i recently wrote one of my opinion basis that we, what we need in the west of safety checks, you know, safety catches on huge policy decisions. so, you know, our hardware leader, so if you look, if you notice i'm becoming more most stupid. we're zach we, what it is. there's no check on this political link here. it's all the time we have here. i want to thank my guess in budapest and in medication, i want to thank you for watching us here. are you next? i remember. ah ah ah

ah . i'm willing it a cranium tv toys to anemia idea. she ship a control in particular bought. so you should feel free to give you the mo, the, the system will only be me out of it, not a missing, or we can do a little dish,

but i live a lot of the my subway. but just a and we ship a gift or should look like, you know, what of them. i need a one, they feature that or, and you can actually reach with global the machine years about how she took on my job is to broadview nestle. tricky weekly if you take a picture of a while ago, but hopefully you have to go so good. i'm up with it is going to be international owner. then international relations must not just be

about our interest, but it should also be about certain lucy norms, which can be respected. my own parties, ah ah, i myself. they only live like we're young hold. the young woman was in a network that i was getting myself well, so i've been a little bit of it when are you wonderful. and i think it's an oakwood village, so glad they shift off it. look at the idea. you've got to live here.