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tv   Worlds Apart  RT  October 4, 2022 10:30am-11:01am EDT

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full at that point of time that it could get away with that and it could create the institutions like it did, you know, the marshall plan and the nato, etc, etc. and it was successful. the americans mistakenly believe that they can do that today. they are not in that position and power to do that today. but that having been said, the analogy that i wanted to bring out sure was that mister putin's actions have provoked the response that most unexpected at most schools and, and to which, to some extent have under cut to it's broader and geopolitical positioning in the missing of the, it's pretty clear that any incursion into another country is bound to have pretty serious ramifications. and i think the problem was fully aware of that from the get go. there is also a lot of discussion here in russia about how the ukrainian operation and they are very likely admission of the former ukrainian regions into russia proper will
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divert resources from russia own domestic policies. for example, the drive to develop the forest. but there is also recognition that these move serv, he security and national identity goals repelling nader, as well as shielding the people of eastern ukraine from ethnically and motivated prosecution differently. dismiss those motives. no, i don't. and i don't believe those. i think motives, what i would have actually suggested if was to put in had this plan, those special military operation. as we've seen, the initial operation went all the way to give. now let's step back a moment or 2. we had the minutes because means 2 in particular. and the irony is that the west was reading off the russia on the russian him, she'd,
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and telling you, cramps that you must do what is written in minsk, which is the special status, et cetera, et cetera in trying that in the constitution. and i would have suggested that mr. wooten hammer on those points that the mens accord over and over and over whether it's from the normandy format when it's the clusters proposal was being violated by men's. and that's the reason foreign operation which will be limited to the non rest area. i think the rest of the response would have been calling actively different in that regard to the western sanctions response. it would not have been a happy response, but it would not have been also as far reaching. and this is the modus operandi of what the west has done in iraq and cetera, et cetera. it has for soften the ground for its own military operation. and then going forward, and so that would be my suggestion in this regard that you also wrote that one of the most important 4 sides of there was an architect or after the 2nd world war was
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their decision to build an international system. and then it will actually can amik system that was based on openness and universal isn't a global economy that could belong to essentially every member of the global community. and i wonder if one of the main underlying factors not only in the ukrainian conflict, but in this brother confrontation in russia in the west and to some extent the west and the rest is in fact, some presumption, i'm explaining inexplicable presumption on the part of that was that the global economy belongs to the west only, and that it's up to the west to decide who has access to it. yeah, absolutely correct. and i, and i stand by what i, what i mean, the west design, the plumbing out there. and it terms of the that we cannot make infrastructure planning is designed by the west and it's one by the west and it can shut it off
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when it wants to. and that's completely wrong because the us doesn't have that are and capability anymore. and i would add one more, one more feature. oh till this was just the same, you know, in the 1940. so, you know, i talked about the comparison, started, the west was confident when it was confident, it did not have to take this thought off radical action. the fact that it is taking radical action now is itself, it's a lack of confidence that back in germany that it enjoyed can be perpetuated. and so it is now trying to realize all the gains from underwriting that system on a short term basis, regardless of whether that system will then can be maintained. the u. s. without extracting as much out of that system when it was used a poor to underwrite that system. and that itself is a reflection of how the best itself feels like it's in the international system is coming to an end thinking about extraction. mr. got that until recently the west
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was indeed capable of extracting whatever it wants from the rest of the world and being and keith by. but with this late, the confrontation and the policies of sanctioned against russia, it seems that it can no longer shield itself, its own societies from the consequences of its own action. have we come to a point, perhaps even a turning point when the chickens have come home to roost? your current on that front? i think there been on both sides. i mean there's, there's mutual damage, especially in europe. i think particularly when i look at germany, i just don't understand the country. 50 years of diplomacy has literally gone been flushed the toilet in a half a year and they're going to have a very difficult winter. and yes, there's blue back all around. but i would also submit that this has her brush, you're standing and rushes capabilities going forward for some period of time. and
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so this has not been, it's been lose lose for both parties, frankly. and it will time will tell who has lost more in this context. well, i know that you have dedicated a lot of years of your career to political risk analysis. so it's not just about wishful thinking, or, you know, best hope it's about calculating no means versus goals and help us understand that this is one thing that many in russia i'm not able to understand what we hear a lot of politicians and the west say that ukraine needs to be supported until it defeats russia. what exactly these people mean predict, defeating russia and what kind of risks it involves. so great question. i to be very honest, i have no understanding on the west, just thinking in terms of defeating russia. i what i would submit until is,
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well ukraine feels that has been a violation of its territory. it deserves a chance to fight back and recoup as much of its territory as it can. this is an inherent right to self defense. it is an enhanced so it is doing that it should be given an opportunity, but we'll see how far it goes in capturing to defending territory is a lot easier than capturing territory, but ukrainians need to capture re capture territory. and i mean, there's been a lot of glee and jumping around that. they've got little bit of care, some problems and a little bit here in a little bit. but my argument would be like, let them have that one chance. and after that is still made. those 2 areas where the stalemate becomes should become more permanent lines across which if peace settlement can then be you can then reinforce. now mr. go to your role to long ago that russia, quote, unquote invasion of ukraine is as naked violation of international law as it can be
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. and i personally agree with you, although vladimir putin being illegal is provided or sought to provide some legal justification. you know, people of them by officially appealing to russia for support and protection, but regardless of how weak or how strong that legal justification is. i would argue that international law can only be international and law when it's universally applied systematically and universally applied when it's applied selectively. it undermines it's very purpose and it becomes a weapon of injustice rather than a means to justice. i and i simply don't understand why would people still make this argument about international law? does international law even matter anymore? i understand your point. i want to, i would submit would be that yes, international law has been violated. really let me,
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let me be very frank about this thing. this was yes, the most naked indicated violation of international law since and i will say moved into career. but there have been many violations of international law by the west. and in the intervening time, and the amount of people who have died as a result of that violations of international law wanted magnitudes higher than what, how nearly isn't millions of people and cross at the arab states across africa. and frankly, even across europe, precisely as you no doubt, no question about that. but i, what i would still submitted at this point of time is if there is going to be something as international and international on or not the liberals rule based on a, which is, which is an external, which is, which is not, not a very honest characterization. but if that is going to be international owner, then international relations, it should not must not be, not just be about power and interest, but it should also be about certain lucy norms,
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which can be respected by all parties. i think most of the most of the decision makers, in most would agree with the i know that you often you often point out that balance is one of the key values in foreign affairs. and i think that the russians ultimately are very byzantine in their approach. they're all about dancing and even the soviet union as communism as it was in the are the balancing. but the question is whether the west is opening is open to balancing in any shape or form because at least from most it seems that washington, once everything for itself is not interested in any power sharing, am i wrong on that? well, you're not wrong that you're correct on that. i think george kennan pointed this out to 996. that if you, we're going to take natal right to russia's models, you are going to the european settlement is going to fail. you know,
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when president couldn't put out those very reasonable demands to the american side in december to president biden, it was about, let's on amends. meant to, let's ensure that we have legal guarantees. let's ensure that the nato doesn't get onto, onto the russian borders. let's not have offensive every systems in adjacent states . i think those are all reasonable and a basis for a conversation and left to me, i would have said at the end of the 2nd, then of the cold war. yes, the playground country should have been allowed into nato, but natal should have been stopped. nato expansion should have been stopped that moment, not the more takes, not even romania and bulgaria. and from that point on, the west sea should have been made as the primary framework within which europe, in security was regulated for the west, essentially the cold war didn't. and it was, they told russia, the cold war ended for you. and, you know, need to do all these things, but for us we will continue with that woman county. and that's,
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and we've come to the logic logical situation today in seeing what's happening in ukraine unfortunately. and the germans could have done better in europe. it's like, well, we cannot talk loudly because of ice fi softly, softly. they were the ones against giving nato a membership action plan. ukraine a membership actually, but they didn't nothing about it. and the ukranian kept on asking for mo, from new to. well, mr. good to, let's discuss the issue of german, our product, german rationality after a short break, which we need to take right now, but we'll be back in just a few moments station. ah, a got to do is identify the threats that we have. it's crazy from frontier, let it be an arms race is on a fence. very dramatic developers. only nationally, i'm going to resist. i don't see how that strategy will be successful,
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very difficult time to sit down and talk about them with a with with you with you. i'm with
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mike still with you cuz to political, chris got to boot from beach still easier for this patient in the board. with ah
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ah ah welcome back to was a party with srp, a senior fellow at the washington base institute for china america studies. it's a good thing before the break re. it touched upon the issue of german rationality and it's true that the russian and germany cannot make a relationship based primarily on gas, but not only so hm managed to ensure that the cold
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war stayed cold and it's not cold anymore. and we have an major kinetic conflict in the middle of europe. and just now the dancer you heard the news about the explosions up in north stream one gas pipeline, which for sure will leave germany and a number of other countries in a, in a very hard situation. energy wise, these, this winter now, as a russian, i don't care about how germans warm up their homes. but what i'm really concerned about is the state warfare, turning to industrial tire and tactics. when do you think about it? how worrying is that? i think it is maureen and i would say what more worrying is the fact that german russian relations have splintered and spent so badly of their perhaps for quite some time. it'll take a lot of effort to repair that relationship. and it's in some ways to the us china
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relationship on the us pushing for deep coupling and the damage that that can do with not just the bilateral relationship, but to the broader global economy. i taught russia, russia, german relations was the ballast for economic security in europe, and that ballast has gone. and it's now uncertain as to what sort of profile, what sort of a country germany itself b this honey singer joe knew it wants to speak up, talk out and do things. and of course it's going to be hurt economically. but i think it has really hurt it's long term foreign policy by seeking a policy of bad relations with russia. i think it could have done a lot more to preserve that relationship. but to preserve that relationship, we're not required to be aggressive much earlier and say this is auto nonsense to have folks like the ukrainians internet or we just don't oppose their membership
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action plan. we of course, lower the even the request for them to join me too, because this is nothing but a public issue. but the germans didn't do that and now did themselves. as i said, going to see the ramifications of 50 years of wise diplomacy. just go down with you . now, i think there is a feeling here in russia that germans and 2 larger extend the west has taken both rushing china for granted as a sort of the underpinning the base for that industrial might. it's very easy to ignore the, the basement of a house when you only look at the roof where there was, but many would argue that access to relatively affordable russian energy sources. somebody would say cheap energy sources was the very basis for german economy. do you think, in terms of economic analysis, do you think the europeans understand how much they actually depended, how much they are? well being dependent on russia?
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to a point, i'm assuming that they didn't know about how much the dependent mother called that there are certain values and rules or norms that needed to be defended regardless. and so they chose to do that. and unfortunately, everybody's going to live out the consequences of that. and so i would say that it's not a knee jerk reaction from the europeans, but i would have hope that they might have been much more wiser in which live, in which they are laid their counter sanctions. because these are effectively, i mean, the equivalent of nuclear sanctions on russia and they cannot expect them that our normal business intercourse is police and in the, in terms of energy supply would, would, would operate. with that, i would understand that some of the rushes actions may seem extremely distasteful to the europeans or somebody else, but the organs also have to do with the americans and some of the american policies that we, europe are hard to describe as friendly and even if we look at this latest attack
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on the north stream pipeline, which has not been attributed to fernley to anyone yet, but we've seen a former polish minister, foreign minister, right x, of course you thinking america going of the russian pipeline, bringing gas to, to germany. i mean, i understand that they would be extremely angry with russia and they would feel the need to stand up, you know, for certain values. but what about the american? don't they need to stand up for the same values with that closest ally? yes, they do. what i mean america, america, alliances are alliances of convenience when it wants it to be in the lines and it can, americans operate like that? and yes, i mean the defense guarantees will stay on the defense. part of it is from an unshakable but on all of the trying. so, i mean, the americans are competing as much with the europeans as they're competing with
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other people. and you'll see that, you know, if we have in america 1st president in 20242028. i mean policy might change and point to is pretty radically in this regard. and the r p and then will be on their own trying to figure out their own destiny and that kind of them learning done their own rituals at this point of time. so they had, they had their warning, donald trump, which gave him a, a very comfortable time to acquire a certain degree of autonomy. if not, sovereignty, both economic and political. and they attempted to do it to do that. there was some lip service from president cron. and from then leadership of germany, but it don't seem to evaporate very quickly. well, joe biden came back to office. now let me ask you about the american thinking because you are in washington after all, and you're more exposed to that mentality. i think many people here in russia believe that american decision makers have lost any existential fear. that the reason why they behave and these extremely provoke it if manner not only does that
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mean russia, but also with regards to their own population, is simply because they have absolutely no accountability. do you agree with that? and does russia have any option of bringing that message home to the decision makers in washington without threatening the entire world? that is without using a nuclear auction? no, i think it's gonna be difficult and it gets dangerous to go down the top often nuclear option because the way it is received out here is that this is irresponsible talk and you're responsible of course, is responsible. but, you know, sending weapons that kill our service, men is also responsible, blowing up a major gas pipeline is not an example of the best behavior. so i mean that you have to respond to other acts of your responsibility, provided that you do that in the, in the moral way that respects the rest of the world. what would i would say is,
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you know, what the americans are to have, you know, trying to do is move the needle as far right to rushes. moto, what? right? and then what, what that is. and then just then and just create insecurity in russia, and perhaps you hope for is you change in russia and hope that are a super liberal administration then follows on its way. and i would submit that russia as a great fall must be able to hold the lines that it has new line centers drawn in ukraine and create a steel made out there. because once we have a statement and when to come so that the com, i think that will be a percentage sooner or later. and after winter with all the hardships that are going to happen, that we need to have some form of the settlement. there's one very well respected political analyst here and asked me to try and we used to be very well received in washington. and he said the other day that even though i didn't put in is pretty straightforward in communicating russian red lines. and he said there is
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simply no space in washington playbook for russian or in fact, any other nations read lines. in fact, one most good tries to draw any limits. people in washington believe that that obligation is to show very publicly to demonstrate it to moscow, to the point of humiliation that it sensibilities simply don't count. am i right on that, laura? unless you are correct on that, but i would say, i mean the husky, some limits on what the u. s. has gone up to and stop the u. s. has not been us as a de facto participant in the war. and i think to the student provides a lot of very significant intelligence support, which has not been reported much, but the u. s. has not itself got engaged physically in terms of, you know, kinetic way in terms of the war. so it does understand, well read those limits are and also as we saw earlier, you to ensure that there would be no actually from in, it'll stated,
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the armaments will be sending to you print and then you can can do stuff and, but it should not target russian country, even though it has probably to some on the boundaries. so there are limits and that's with a mr. good to hear say that there are limits and yet quite clearly they are not really being observed. i wonder if those limb as i am post for the sake of the united states itself, so that the president, by that can tell the american people that okay, we're not participating. participating, even though everybody knows that the americans are in key, that they're advising the ukrainian military leadership that they're providing all the satellite data that they're providing weapons. is it, is it really authentic to argue that they're no longer part? the direct part, it is conflict. you can make a bona lancaster. yes, they are a party to conflict. an awful treasure rebel there. also, they also are because they themselves are not directly in works. and as i said,
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their goal is to take it all up to no need to, to russia's border. i'm and create insecurity in russia. and as i said, the cold war never ended for the us on the call. and then so just part of the prosecution off that cor, well, which they don't want to get locked from their perspective. but as you said, they were willing to fight with last your grievances. well, if they're willing to take nato all the way up to russia's borders, do you think it would be a wise strategy on the part of russia to take that war closer to the american homeland? i'm thinking about industrial infrastructure. i'm thinking about all kinds of special forces operations. i'm thinking about even targeting american forces in 3rd countries and perhaps a credible threat of a new class right on the american homeland. do you think something like that could bring those people in check with reality? yeah, but i think we would cross an important line if there's a direct exchange between the russians and the americans. are russians and
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a neutral state. i think back line needs to be preserved because if that line is violated, i think we could be in for a conflagration. and so i think there's some element of even self restraint from the russian and which needs to happen. and that's why i said, i mean the real concentration should have some div, one should have been about don bass and even today it should be about preserving frontlines in don bass and live and leave madison that. well, mr. group, i hope your advice is heated for the time being. we have to leave it there, but i'm very, very grateful for your participation. thank you very much for that. you're most welcome. thank you miss a interesting to and thank you for watching hope to hear again. and it was a part of a
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ah ah ah, lisa canter, russian state total narrative. i've studied as i phone and ignore some scheme. davis with $55.00 will be paid. okay, so mine is 25 and speaking with we will van in the european union, the kremlin media machine, the state on russia for date, and c, r t spoke neck, given our video agency, roughly all bands on youtube and pinterest and
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with me hold me is the aggressor today, i'm authorizing the disco strong sanctions today. russia is the country with the most sanctions imposed against it. a number that's constantly growing up in yo sich of literally list of course seniors you speak, i'm believe senior mostly mind the we're, we'll ship, we're branding all in ports of russian. oil and gas news, i suffering the price. i mean, i know they plenty of those with lower with the little, you know, we're pretty good regarding joe biden and imposing these sanctions on russia. jo has destroyed the american economy. so there's your boomerang,
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ah, ah, with ah, it doesn't matter for russia whether western countries, except our decisions or not, it would be right for every country around the world to accept the new reality. as top diplomat says, western nations we'll have to accept the new reality. the countries done, it agrees to include the full regions into that of the russian federation. get lost. that's the gist of the response, bi, ukrainian, and western politicians to the ideas for solving the wall proposed to by the world's richest man eel on much the resentment is growing in the beginning.

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