ah, we have a responsibility for the whole world and we need to make room for the rest. because without house there will be chaos. ah ah. hello and welcome to cross stock were all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle . nato faces a dilemma. member countries are divided on how to proceed regarding ukraine. 9 countries want membership or ukraine immediately 21 member countries disagree. then there is the issue of what exactly ukraine is today. is nato willing to liberate

the regions that are joining russia? ah, cross sucking nato's dilemma. i'm joined by my guest, jo, laurie in washington. he's the editor in chief of consortium, new style. come in new york. we have margaret kimberly. she is executive editor of black agenda report and in lake jackson, we have daniel mcadams. he's the executive director of the ron co hall institute for peace and prosperity. right? cross accruals and effect votes. that means you can jump anytime you want. and i always appreciate, daniel, let me go to you 1st in lake jackson with the of, if you agree or disagree of the 4 regions of ukraine or are about to officially be brought into the russian federation. now, considering that nato is at war with russia, it was a, with the session of these regions. the script has been flipped, so they're not depending ukraine's borders. they're trying to change rushes now.

and then i want to talk about all of this very dangerous hawk about nuclear weapons . go ahead, daniel. yeah, i think what we're putting is practicing here is, is maneuver warfare. and obviously there are plenty of people who think there and said, i don't, i don't, nobody's thinking i can only observe what i've seen. but it seems to me as if the reason this was supposed to military operation, the beginning is that president did not realize that this would be a nato versus russia war as you correctly point out in your introduction, peter. so he's been able to scale up his response to nato's increasing involvement . the introduction of heavy weaponry, the introduction of direct targeting by nato. and i think that forced him to go to the next level, which is to agree to something that he had disagreed with 1st quite some time. remember these republic certainly some of them the best wanted to join russia back in 2014 and putting was not interested in doing it that time is forced him. i would say it's lead him to make this conclusion that to establish facts on the ground is

the only way to respond to the fact that nato itself is a war with russia. hence, the sort of the beginning of partial mobilization and the end of any pretense that this is a russia ukraine war. any longer. jo, essentially the same question to you. and on top of that, we have a president and lensky, almost like a child juvenile folding. his arms and saying, i'm not going to talk to putin. ok. i have to believe that that was whispered in his ear, considering all of the loose rhetoric and we have heard considering what the background of the, of the pipelines being destroyed here, they're upping their rhetoric here. but russia is changing the political facts on the ground. joe, go ahead. i think it's not an overstatement, that we're in the most dangerous psych period, maybe in all of history, and i'm to get the cuban missile crisis. this is a hot war going on, and we've got, we had j, f, k, and office not present to us president, if ne note decides to move on these new territories that russia is absorbing.

you know, i think the time for arguing who's right or wrong in this war, and i've done that in articles in, on other shows. and this show is over. we've got to get both sides together to end this. and that would be giving up territory by, by ukraine, them, that's what's going to have to happen because this has got to end before we're all dead. serious about that. you know, we want to russians put up with this for 30 years, being pushed into this resource. coons anger, flashing at the 2007 munich security conference. and now in this last speech, i mean, he laid it all out. of course the west cannot understand a word he's talking about some of them. they cannot see themselves the way others see them. now i'm sure there's some cynics within the u. s. establishment and leadership, and they know what's going on, what the dangerous. they know that they live so call mission to spread. their exceptionalism is rubbish. and that they've actually pushing their own interest. so maybe the cynics are going to have to save us. they're gonna have to realize that they can't push this any further. and both sides have to sit down and talk and end

this thing now. yeah, well margaret, i absolutely agree with what joe is said with daniel said, but if you, if you follow the advice of joe, then you're an apologist. you're of the appeaser a all of the worse things you could possibly quiz laying out, you know, pull out everything. ok. and that is why we got ourselves into this situation. i'm sorry to be a nerd about this here, but i did recall over and over again in my program and tell was band on youtube that on december 17th the gauntlet was dropped. we have to negotiate before it gets hot. and this is where we are right now. ok? so you know, negotiations there's, you know, then people think there has to be a diplomatic solution. well, it takes to, to talk and one doesn't want to talk because what is being told not to talk, margaret. yes. and there was a time when they were talking, so it's very clear they were told not to. and as for zalinski is little performance less we forget, he is an actor. so if the united states told him to talk, he would,

ukraine has been a de facto us colony since 2014. so anything they say or do is what washington is telling them, washington and their allies, particularly in the u. k. but this, i agree completely with joe, this is a very, very dangerous moment. not only do you have a government, joe biden, a week president, not very smart with the not very smart team of people who have this fantasy that they hope to make a reality. so not only does you crave blow up in their faces, but they will add to that by antagonizing china. this is the worst group of people that i can remember in my life, running foreign policy in this country and that, and they had that here helping them in that say, and that saying something,

margaret, considering this is decades of strings of failure and destruction and death and wasted treasury. daniel, for me that rubicon was finally finally finally crossed with the destruction of the north stream pipelines. because you can't pick them quickly. why would russia fix them? they're going to be, they would be up for sabotage again. i mean, they have drawn the line, the europeans are going to suffer for this. germany has germany even protested, who in europe is even protested. and then you have tony blinking. so you're to a tremendous opportunity here. i mean, when people tell you who they are, believe them, daniel, it is very obvious, you know, and colonel mcgregor was on fox. i think the other day saying, what can't you said out loud? which isn't it's obvious that either the u. s. u. k. poland or some combination of the 3, which is probably the case is responsible for this and it is remarkable. as you point out, the germans are saying anything, salt and berg, nato said, well,

clearly this looks like some kind of sabotage. you know, the elephant in the room is, is this, i mean, it reminds me of the image, 17 of the plane that just happened to get blown up and was blamed on russia. the idea that there's anything in it for russia to blow up their own pipeline of multi $1000000000.00 to lose $500.00 a $1000000.00 worth of gas and thin air. it makes no sense. obviously it's, it's, it's feels like a desperation move, but not against russia. and this is the important point, i think peter, which is this was that attack? no, no rush this property only. but mostly in the talk on germany, yet germany has no chance. and there is, there have been some indication that there were some discussions going on between russia and germany. there's unrest in germany. people take into the streets and hasn't gotten cold yet. the last, the last hour for them to use to space sickly, saved themselves this winter is to restart nordstrom one and to start listing to

that's now off the table for the most part. so this was an attack on germany to make sure that germany does not find any kind of refreshment with russia well, or daniel or said in a different way. but agreeing with you is to maintain american hegemony over europe . that's the point here. okay. and joe, so i guess, nato, you know, it's, it's, it's very foundation was the russians out, the germans down in the americans, then i think it didn't read. you didn't need to cold war for that. ok, because that's the way the u. s. wants to maintain its control over europe. go ahead, joe. you know, this term cumber door when the dizziness leaders are selling out on people to serve a foreign power. o was always associated with developing countries. and this now occurred to me really clearly that european leaders, western european leaders are the same thing. these are colonies get for australia in there, and they are doing whatever the u. s. wants at the expense of their own people has never been clearer than what's going on right now. we're not only risking their own

economies, their own political futures, if the people do get out of the street and they have begun to do that. and of course, a nuclear confrontation as we were discussing. so the u. s. has shown total control over their vassals, really in europe. and it's really just disheartening to see this. yeah, yeah, it is. i mean, you, why don't they to say no, because no, all of their leads have been co opted. they co opted all of their leads that serve not the interests of their people. as the german foreign minister said, you know, he doesn't care what voters say. he doesn't get, he said that literally said that i don't care what my voters say margaret, what are the things that i've noticed? and i've been saying this ever since 2014 and said, the more the west backs, whatever government there is in care of the smaller the country gets having to have you noticed that yes. what a great success. ok. and you know, everyone acts as though this was a new unprovoked attack. this has been going on for years. and yes,

ukraine has not benefited at all from this bass. so status, it was already the poorest country in europe, the most corrupt country in europe. although the media don't say that anymore, what a surprise in february, suddenly it wasn't. but we see the ukranian people suffering zalinski outlaw and political parties denying people the right to bargain collectively, basically turning over the country to foreign investment. so the u. s. interference in this country has been an absolute disaster for their people. now we've had war since february, many people dead disruption displacement. so there's nothing good about ukraine having hitched it's wagon to the us and its allies. it's been an absolute disaster . well, margaret, you know, we're going to quickly go to a break here, but i think there are, there are elements. i mean, we have like b hunter,

biden's that have done very, very well. and of course, ukraine's oligarchy are doing extremely well. because as far as i can tell margaret, there is no audit to where those weapons are going, where all that money is going and they'll never be in audit. ok. and so the, there's no accountability here is a matter of fact the u. s. that no longer tracks where its arms go, that whole division was of the pentagon was shut down to suddenly they don't want people to know are going to jump in here. we're going to go to a short break it up to about short break. we'll continue our discussion of nato's dilemma state. ah, ah. oh, well, never be a victory for russia. we switch with you what you're still waiting late anyway,

newton are done by should look at 8 me. crane war is a proxy war. this is a war between russia and the united states. mezzo mom on made. it comes to not shoot kids then in common. you boy, america forces are and you're not in europe engage in conflict of russian forces. the american forces are here and defend nato allies. what happens that nato escalates even more than the special military operation become a war when you but does have some rules that yellow show and that'll that doesn't is my store. i see it, i see it to us. thank you. costliest. go to me live. so i use 3, you should unique and you start with most of them. let's see when you read only the still food or in your sewage near. i see the girl whose

mom, when i was showing wrong, when i was just a shape out the same, becomes the advocate an engagement. it was betrayal. when so many find themselves worlds apart, we choose to look so common ground. who is the aggressor today? i'm authorizing the additional strong sanctions today. russia is the country with the most sanctions imposed against it. a number that's constantly growing. i figure which of the problems to cause issues become a bullying incident in which the mind, the will ship were banding, all imports of russian oil and gas fuji. i

mean, i know they franky with the little bit, with regard to joe by imposing these sanctions on russia has destroyed the american economy. so there's your boomerang self. ah, welcome back, the cross walk where all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle trim and you were discussing nato's dilemma with . okay, let's go back to daniel lake jackson. i think all of us would agree that this is the biggest propaganda psych off operation of all time. and we've seen a lot of them in our lifetime here, daniel, the, the, it's been said accidentally said biden, set it by mistake, you know, regime change and, but it, this is really what it's all about. i mean,

ukraine is this the proxy? no, they, they don't leave these people. victoria knew, and people like they don't care about ukraine. they care about how humiliating russia and defeating russia here. and this is with the pipelines, if you need any more proof than that. go ahead. daniel. what's interesting is that the big near brzezinski son is now the u. s. ambassador in warsaw. yeah, that does make you wonder a little bit the person his father is responsible for the creation of the missouri, her dean, with the idea of using them to overthrow the soviet union in russia. back then, it's the same group of people that have been in power for decades. now. finally, getting their opportunity to do what they plan to do forever. they thought that, that the 2014 qx would do a, but of course then they thought the orange revolution before they would do it completely oblivious to the realities of the fact that ukraine has been a divided country of those sections of ukraine that are now rejoining russia, we're part of russia up until 922,

when lenin pilled them away and give them to ukraine. of course, we know that crimea was killed away later than that in the fifty's by crucial. this would have been a natural process anywhere else where you had people voting, 90 percent for this, for the, for the kennedy that was considered to be the most pro russia in those regions. it's a natural, natural feature of self determination that they would decide to join this. it's only the u. s. as you say, peter, with its fantasy of over throwing the russian government and again, subjugating russia as it did during yeltsin to the, to, to its own will to the us to washington on will. that's driving this and this is joe is absolutely right. absolutely dead. the world ending policy? yeah, joe, i want to go back to that the, all through the mainstream legacy media is that the worry that is going to use nukes, ok. i don't know where this came from. the 1st person that was a french foreign minister from 1st mentioned nukes during all of this,

not russia and rushes reiterated. it's new killer doctrine, it's not changed whatsoever. so, joe, my proposition is this, this is a form of projection. we, you know, i have talked to a lot of military real people about the losers on tv. ok, but people that actually know what they're talking about. and is that nato doesn't have the conventional forces to fight a war against russia. but it does have one weapon in its arsenal. it is very deadly for all of us. and this is what i'm really worried about. they're saying the russians are going to do it, but they're projecting because that's their only line of defense jo. look at twisting in the western media and when western leaders, what exactly russia saying on this, they're changing a warning into a threat. there's a big difference between a warning and a threat if you go to a power station and it says, warning, high voltage, it doesn't say threat, high voltage, that means you actually have to do something in order to be harmed. where is it? that's a warning, where is a threat? you could be completely innocent and be attacked and just a person could,

i could kill someone say, i'm going to kill you out of a fit of rage. whereas if someone says, if you pick up that gun, i'm going to shoot that self defense a different train aggression and self defense right here. russia is laid out. yes, there nuclear doctrine, which is not change because if you attack russian territory, even with non conventional means, if it's existentially a threat to rush survival, russia, than they could use nuclear weapons. but i don't know exactly what the secret messages were that we read about in the washington post that has been going on for weeks, if not months. now from, from the u. s. i to russia regarding nuclear weapons, i fear that you might be right. and i hope that you're wrong, peter, that the, the actually, it's the western side that is making a threat rather than just a warning, because we've reached the end of the road here in the long period of a battle between unilateral u. s dominance and the rest of the world resisting that. we've come to the head right now. so we can be talking about this in such a, a blight way nuclear weapons and i don't think that there's the public

consciousness. then there was in october crisis 60 years ago in cuba. so as i said before, it's time to put all this talk aside and make a deal and end this war. now, learning for the russian side, this is existential. it is to be or not to be, but for the west, this is a craving choice, and it's ideologically driven. and that's what makes this so dangerous. because i, you know, i read, you know, i read tough, you know, the, the, be the government news agency. what are the most boring for things you can read and it's terribly terribly ranks. but it is, it's one fact after another this was what was said. that's it, no editorializing, i read it all the time. and they say all the time, what they're going to do it, you know, what is important is that what is the big? it's not hard to figure out, go there, go to the kremlin website. it's all there in black and white. go ahead, margaret. well, well,

when we get is war propaganda and we see outlets like the new york times new york times is just as a mouthpiece for the biden administration. and that's part of the danger. we don't get real news. we have war propaganda, new york times, washington post n, p r, et cetera. it's nothing but us propaganda. no information, no facts, nothing that is of any benefit to people. as joe said, projection in order to normalize the idea of hot war to normalize the idea of nuclear war. and by the way, the u. s. does not a rule out of 1st strike, so that we know that that's u. s. policy, the u. s. gives itself permission to use nukes 1st, and we're dealing with people who are not very smart. every act of desperation

makes their situation worse. they didn't destroy russia's economy, they've destroyed the economies all over the world. they've blown up this pipeline . and in effect, attacked an ally, a terrorist attack. so we're dealing with people who don't know what they're doing, who are, as you say, idiot, logically driven, who have some crazy band to see about being able to get rid of putin or have regime change. so we're in a very, very difficult situation with these people in charge at this moment in a canyon, i think all of us are, you know, we're kind of close in nature. all of us, the same, same generation was put it that way. i how in the world as the mainstream media and the current political lead normalized nucular war because they have nothing seems real. i mean, everything is invented out of whole cloth it's, it's incredible to think about, you know, it, talk about propaganda. you know, we talked about, there was a tweet from the associated press this week that said there is a kremlin. 6 back,

conspiracy theory, going around saying that the united states blew up these pipes. i mean, mastercard, propaganda, because if you happen to question that russia did it well, then you're obviously a dupe of the kremlin. it's just so blatant now. and i think this is, this is also the way that this is escalated, the u. s. continues to throw things that it would not seeing a reaction, they'll continue do more and more. but what the service me the most is, yes, the people in power are incompetent, but we don't have an opposition party and united states, the republicans, if they had any brains and they don't, they would be running as the pro peace party right now. biden has jumped the entire military budget of russia into ukraine over the past 7 months, and it's gone down a black hole. it's done nothing. you know, the republicans have, it's on a platter, but they are also so enamored with war. so caught up in the military industrial complex, so caught up in war rhetoric that they would literally rather not win house and

senate in november, then to turn and adopt a more sensible foreign policy that would have a broader repeal. yeah, i find most liberal, stupid, but republicans are scary. that's how i look at them. ok. a plague on both them. ok . you know, joe, joe, you know, when i was, you know, when i was in graduate school, we used to read the new york review books. okay. and the section i really liked was history, eastern europe, you know, soviet union, russian all about. and there was an enormous amount of debate and it was really riveting. there's no debate anywhere anymore. and to the proof that point they banned me from you to. they banned me for a twitter. ok, there's no debate. no, they've really been give me the chance to be insulted anymore. joe. that's what makes it so much what dangerous could at any time, perhaps in recent history, certainly because there is no argument in the u. s. or in the west. he used to be in the seventy's,

a real argument about whether we should pursue the americans should pursue detente or not, with the soviet union. that is gone. there is no argument. you cannot say anything that goes against official narrative. this is what so frightening us needed this war. they needed russia to intervene, so that they could launch their economic war and their proxy were on the ground. and especially their information was in the context, talking about right now, and they are winning that part of the losing the economic war. clearly, sanctions of backfired ruble is stronger than ever, but they're winning the information war. and this is extremely part of the danger that we're living to right now, because you can't even argue these points. you can't raise any questions. we've been shut down on a power consortium news. news guard has given us the red mark. we and so many people and kicked off twitter, youtube for simply raising questions. this cannot go on because if it does, it's part of the reason we're leading ourselves down this extremely dangerous path

. because we can't even have a discussion about what's going on in, you know, margaret, you know, i have said repeatedly, you know, that this is existential, of the fate of ukraine is very important to russia, security. and that is ban speech. but you know what? brock obama said exactly the same thing when he was leaving office. just imagine the short amount of time. i mean if he said that today, i guess technically he would be banned margaret? well, yes he would be, but, but you know, this is why they had this crazy idea. the disinformation board that was all about ukraine to make, to shut down any discussion all together. so you have people who are the more they read, the more misinformed they are, and this is a bipartisan project. democrats and republicans all too often are on board and there are on the same side more often i believe,

than actually they are different. so we need the left to step up. we are arguing about what you feel about vladimir putin and speak up in the left in europe apparently disappeared. i find it shocking that the u. s. has, in effect attacked, the e u. a people are literally starting to breathe and there's no movement. of course they blew up the pipeline to try to shut that down. but the left needs to step up. my only my great, let me finish. let me finish on this point because what they also do and do very well if they keep all of us apart from each other, they make us hate each other. okay? and i refuse to do that on this program. i have progressives on all the time. libertarians all the time, very few liberals come on, but i do my best. that's all the time we have. we need more debate. maybe that's what we'll save, is here. many thanks my gets in washington,

new york and lake jackson. and thanks to our viewers for watching us here are to see you next time. remember, rustic roles. ah ah, a ah. yes, absolutely. well, with the free, you know when enough to shut down because generally, you know sure. somebody who can watch some stuff done

with all the money. some a lot of the schools we have to deal with it was up here at the office with a sort of

a ah crane. well, never be a victory for russia. ukraine war is a proxy war. this is a war between russia and the united states. as a month are made, it comes to last you get then in cowboys. america forces are in europe, not in europe, to engage in conflict with russian forces. the american forces are hearing, defend nato allies, nato escalades, even more in the special military operations become a war when with dell sip says that girls at the show and that all of those.