[000:00:00;00] a double play with the with the hello and welcome to cross top where all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle. there's a landscape regime is made it clear. it is not interested in any negotiations as russia to end the military conflict. this should not surprise anyone. after all, this has been the position of the by did administration all along. the collective

west is intent on supporting this conflict until the last ukranian may be until there is no ukraine left. the cross sucking diplomatic stalemate, i'm joined by my guess, larry johnson in tampa. he is a managing partner in burg, associates and a former c. i a analyst and us state department counterterrorism official and how we have oliver boyd barrett. he is a professor emeritus of journalism and public relations at bowling green state university, as well as author of brush gate and propaganda. and in corpus christi, we have michael flannigan. he is president of flanigan, consulting, and a former congressman or a gentleman, cross our rules and effect. that means he can jump at anytime you want. and i always appreciate, let me go to larry 1st in tampa, who survived. and i'm glad you have, have you on this week, you couldn't last week for obvious reasons. larry, what do you make of zalinski? so i need decrease. there's no negotiations, at least not with this current russian president. and of course, as i said in my introduction,

this is an echo of what the by to ministration is supported, all along. so i will invoke that more on name burrell, the foreign policy cheaper, the e u. this will be sided on the battlefield. i guess it's pretty clear, huh. go ahead, larry. but there are the final propaganda pushes under way. lensky certainly is doubling down on a very bad. and despite all of the hoopla, the propaganda going on in the west about the great victories of ukraine and hell, rushes in, the tree, prudence on the verge of collapse. it's going to happen in a minute. now all we gotta do is hold on. and yet, the reality is something else and the, the bottom line fact is ukraine does not have the ability to sustain itself on the battlefield without continued supplies coming from the united states and nato, and the ability of the united states and nato to continue those supplies. is we're city, it's not increasing the,

the kinds of actual weapons that the united states consent and that the europeans consent is this, not the top of the lines, material tanks, planes. it's the 2nd hand stuff. and on top of that, the ammunition supplies that the west has just to provide can are being depleted and they do not have the industrial base. they once had that this is not the world war 2 united states that could really crank up and produce stuff. so let's, he's in trouble, it's just the world hasn't caught up to it yet. you know, michael with the, the, the sabotage of the north stream pipeline. so again, that's kind of taking a piece off the chessboard because that was something very important for the russians. and for particularly the germans, but europe in general here, i think we all know who did it, but i'm not, i don't wanna waste time talking about that. but the fact of the matter is, is that, that was some that was

a form of interaction. that was very important for both parties that's been taken off the board because there's, there's been talk, there was talk for weeks that the germans were interested in coming to some kind of understanding with the russians. somebody else decided no, there's going to be no understanding your thoughts. i think you've summed it up absolutely correctly. there's going to be no solution if left to gloria noonan newland and the other geniuses at foggy bottom. and at the n, a say they're the thought leaders of this nightmare, and it won't. and as i say from the outset, putin should not have invaded, he should have not left his own borders. but having dealing with that reality, we need to come to peace and to come to peace, you have to have the parties come to the table. so if you're going to have some ridiculous, the only thing we'll accept is unconditional. surrender like it in the 2nd world war. will you better be in a position to win the war? well, you know what zalinski is not,

and he's just not going to happen. it's laughable to imagine that ukraine could win this war. and the fact that we continue to live in the west, in a, in a, in a media circus that drives this narrative. it confuses me deeply because there is no way to grind this downs. wondering when minority and water it takes the more brutal that will be admin, michael, you can escalate up. i agree with you there with there a way. there were ways that may be a ray of hope that it could happen. now. i tend to doubt it, but you can escalate to let. let me go to oliver in ohio. is it? this is what i worry about because i've learned a lot from larry johnson, our guest in our program. i did a podcast on my, on the gaggle with george samuel ali, which, you know, is how much longer length. but, you know, what worries me is that the, the west doesn't have the conventional capacity to maintain this war. and so there's the next step. and that's the big step. ok. and we hear all of this talk about, you know, a,

using the technical you nuclear weapons. that's not the russian saying at this. it's an insinuation on from the west because they don't have the conventional capacity to say a conflict against russia. oliver go ahead. you know, this issue a conventional capacity is kind of important because although they do seem to run out of their stocks for their own defense purposes, let alone for the defense of ukraine. they are, or a $1000000000.00 more and 2 orders for future deliveries of, of hardware. and those orders will eventually be met to the great profitability of the western arms manufacturers who the who seem to be the primary beneficiaries of this war or by the way. and but by my thinking is that at some point there's new orders for webinar. we do have to start

running in, but i'm not sure how many months it takes, and i dare say it's different periods of time according to what categories of weaponry we are talking about. i'm thinking the winter. this is a very, very dangerous time for the, for the west because of the situation in the battle field despite the misleading optics or keith s on that the, this is, this is not a good time for the worse and we're entering autumn where entering winter is going to be very difficult for either side to launch major offenses. well, i think we might, but oliver, when it's, it's the rainy season where i am right now to say it's rainy season in ukraine. russia has a very good history of fighting in the winter of stalingrad, the defense of berlin. it winters, not a big problem. hard ground is good. ok, larry, i well, you know, one of the things that really bothers me about

a lot of the commentary on the complex is that we have to look at it in a very broadly what russia is doing. now. it will, it wants to avoid having to have to do it in again, in 5 years or 10 years, or 15 years. they want a definitive outcome for their security means. we so much commentary about this overlooks that go ahead larry. well, i think part of the problem is the wes looks entirely as a football game that who's, who's scored a point who's, who's allowed a goal. and they forget the cost of what's dictate that that war is just an extension of politics. and you've got to look at the broader politics, and that's where i think the russians clearly have the advantage here and we saw it on, i don't know, we can't recall if it was tuesday or wednesday of this week. but when opec plus turns around and says, hey,

we're going to reduce the production of oil at the very time that washington and europe are begging for lower oil prices and more oil. now if, if saudi arabia and the rest of the opec nations nigeria thought that russia was just getting clobbered and was on the verge of collapse, is any same person saying that those countries would align themselves with a guaranteed loser? absolutely not. 3rd, not crazy. so the people need to take into account the politics of this, which also gets into the economics. and so from that standpoint, that what's happening militarily on the ground, i don't want to minimize it, but it's a bit of a side show. and it's, yeah, it's the, it's the drama, the west needs or is a sit com mentality. that's such a good point because michael, i think that, you know, when we look at here we are, we're in october in winter is beginning to start. i think we're going to have very different conversation, echoing with larry just said,

they're not about the battlefield, but the condition of, of europe's economy and my extension the united states go ahead. michael and corpus christi. yeah, i think general kudos offset it, but general winter is on its way. the russians do very well in the winter. the west is not and zalinski isn't doing very well anywhere i put in laid out several months ago. 5 points for a point where we can stop fighting and discuss the permanent relinquishment of the crimea of promise not to go into nato and several other things. those go posts moved as russia has paid a price on the ground and has captured the don bastard virtually all of it. and now has other designs. i'm guessing because that once he drags to this out, so the russian view is to ratchet up the pain. and bring come to the table and let's have a done with this. and the pain will continue to be ratcheted up by the russians

because they can afford to do it. they have the capacity to do it. and so i think the battle is something a little more than a side show, although it is subordinate to the, to the political discussion, to be sure. but i think it's the method by which newton is trying to bring this to an end and move on to talks. and so they, we shuffled into carfagna wheat and we got pushed out. oh, go, go back in. i think they will odessa looms large in the winter if there's a winter offensive, and i'm sure there will be on the, the problems for ukraine are insurmountable. the longer they drag this out in a political sense as well as a military one, they would do well to come to the table now. i don't think they can. i don't think gloria knew and i don't think my, my, my dear friend came into congress with senator graham is going to let them do these things i think are there as, as you said at the outset, they're going to fight to the last few. i might, michael, that may have been watching and i'm agreeing with you, but that means they don't really care much about ukraine, right? it's kind of true. they, both of them are care,

far more about hurting russia than they do about protecting ukraine. that is a fact well and, and also a, the, the, the, the derivative of that is that what kind of economic damage will be lasting damage because trade ties will change. and people's the say, well, i'm going to say what the russians are going to say the chinese, because the europeans don't know, they don't even know how to protect their own interests. there are gentlemen, we're going to go to a short break. and after that short break, we'll continue our discussion on diplomatic spending. stay with ah ah, need to come to the russian state will never be as tight as on the northland scheme div. asking him then i'll send,

send up a within the 55 when. okay, so mine is proof i'm speaking with we will ban in the european union, the kremlin. yup. machine. the state on crush up to date and sports r t sports net, even our video agency, roughly all band on youtube with me. i look forward to talking to you all that technology should work for people. a robot must obey the orders given by human beings except where such short or is it conflict with the 1st law? show your identification. we should be very careful about artificial intelligence

and the point obviously is to place truck rather than fear a take on various job with artificial intelligence. real, somebody with must protect his own existence with oh, welcome back to process where all things are considered on peter. let's remind you, we're discussing diplomatic sale me okay, go back to oliver oliver. going back to the, in the sabotage of the pipelines. it says, you know, 2 things stand out of my mind. number one. obviously,

whoever did this wanted to cut that economic energy relationship. but it may, at the end of the day cripple germany, certainly not russia. this is an annoyance for russia. they might rebuild that my might repair it, but if someone's going to blow it up again, then why do it okay. and number 2, that kind of civilian infrastructure i guess is on the table. there are other pipelines in the baltic. i just think who did this with show thinking in very short term as if it white make some kind of dramatic difference. it doesn't, it may, it may in the short, medium run and that will be germany in the european economy. go ahead all. well, i'm sure that it's a short term. peter, it may actually be quite long term and a worrying weight, which is to say, the united, well, where we to make the presumption of the united states has had

a hand in the sabotage. the course is going to be an investigation into this. it will be an investigation that to which russia will not be invited. shades of m. h 17 shenanigans in 2014. but i think the long term game is for the united states as to, to, to crush europe and to crush russia simultaneously that, that is the game. and of the same time, to make it impossible for europe and russia to collaborate. that will have the effect of consolidating rushes, pivot to the asian. it will have the effect of greatly solidifying and strengthening the asian chinese lead asian alliances. it will have the effect of whether the united states wants it or not, of ushering,

ushering in the multi polar. whoa, uh, so friday, so terrified, the washington leads that the saddest part of well are so many set parts of the story and the suffering of the ukrainian all ukrainian people is one of those. but another very, very sad element of the story is the crushing of europe. yeah. and in particular, the crashing you're just except the germans don't seem to realize yet what is happening to them. i think i can only assume that they are so integrated into a power structure that is dominated by the united states that they don't see that they have korea possibilities anywhere else other than to be on. yeah, yeah, i just think they've, they're just obsessed with. there's neo liberal ideology, they can't break out of it. i mean it, it, it, they, they can't see reality for what it is because they're ideologically blind. larry, let's talk about that because i think we're all in agreement. the prize and all this is continued american hegemony over europe. ok,

the check that box. but the europe, the prize of europe is a very modern, high productivity economy. i mean, without cheaper energy, you don't have the, i think you go pre industrial. i mean i, i don't know what europe is going to be maybe a nation for terrorists from india and china. the see what people used to live like because the prize is worthless. if it isn't, it isn't a high high productivity. larry. i posted an open thread on my blog the other day, asking people, what's your economic situation? i have a remarkable readership. i mean, people from around the world, i got comments from a lot from europe, asia, africa, australia, canada. we're a global economic crisis and what's coming out of europe is particularly disturbing in terms of across the board. these, the people that were commenting were saying, look, my bills have double, they've tripled people that have been,

ex pats are now selling their property and they're leaving europe. try to come back to the united states because it's so bad. so the, the reality for the people, for the civilians, the populace, it is on a grand scale. this is a little bit like that moment in the french revolution, where marie antoinette was there and let them be kate. because the leadership is so out of touch with what's going on with the average citizen, the business people that are trying to keep bakeries open are heavens, even with toilet paper producers in germany having to declare bankruptcy. one of the necessities of life if you're well. so the failure to come to grasp the, to come to grips with the economic consequences of this policy towards russia. underscore is the fact that, or they're not thinking about this in terms of a comprehensive strategy to win

a war. or they're focused only upon how can we are russia. yeah, but you know, but that's not, that's not in any one security interest in the long run. again. that's why i keep saying we have to take steps back here. because what about the european security architecture? we need to talk about that. ok, i mean, you know, they can be, is much looser o, b and c want, but they're still here. neighbor, you can't do anything about that. let me, let me go to michael. michael, you know there's, there's energy cap on russian energy, which of course is kind of what unicorn stuff in my, my, i still don't really understand it. i don't think anybody really does. but i mean, let's flip the, the, the script here will be a cap on high priced, ellen g from the united states. is anybody talking about tapping that? because they're the, i mean, this is obviously a looking for fees market this energy market. the americans want it, they want to deny the russians. ok, but in the middle of europe, i mean the, what they're going to be charge is going to be again,

their productivity will fail. michael, after the 2nd world war, when europe was in the ashes of the united states, owned about half the world's gps, or yep, 12550000000 people own half the world's gdp. today we own a little less than a quarter and it's going down. but the people making decisions for our economic future, our military future are had gemini in europe, which i believe is ebbing quickly, still live in a world. ready we call all the shots, we absolutely do not any more and we need to come to understand that. and i don't think newland or biden, or the 30 something nameless, faceless. ready children who run the white house have a clue what they're doing. the future of this country of the united states is going to be increasingly interdependent on an economically vibrant globe, however much it's being harmed now. and you know that it has been said here that they are in pain. net is a fact,

but we will share that pain shortly. and it's coming and it's going in, it's inexorable. inflation is going to be the smallest problem we've got coming shortly. you know, it used to be the united states catches a cold in the world, gets pneumonia. it's going to be the other way around. and our conference is coming quickly here. we don't have the economic power we did even 30 years ago, and we continued to manage a foreign policy that pretends that we do well then also what they did. there's one thing that the u. s. has enormous amounts of debt. oh, so do the europeans, enormous amount of debt here. i'll oliver, one of the interesting things of all this is that the global south is, is turned its back on this whole affair. this is a, between the europeans and the russians don't drag into it. you know why mostly because you don't have a solution to end it. why should i back here cause if there is no ending to this. ok. and the in the global south is as staying on the sidelines. that's very

significant in light of what michael just said. go ahead, oliver. yes, absolutely. we see some science that africa countries like molly keener fossil and some others in central africa are turning away from one of the s p. i's france in favor of the russian. and so that, that is a very interesting kind of just going to quickly go back to the issue of the l and g. lincoln said, quite recently the, the sabotage of the nose ring, one or 2 pipelines was a wonderful opportunity for the, for the united states. actually he's wrong because the united states is not producing enough and g to service the european markets. it's facing steep gasoline. prices arises and gasoline prices here in the united states. so it needs as much gas for its own population as

possible. and also the, the shale revolution of the past 10 to 20 years is now drawing to an end. there will be a diminution of shale oil and gas supplies in the united states. this isn't dwindling resource. and the idea that the united states believes that there's a future in selling l and g to the united states as i, to, to europe and, and you're not going to be bailed out either by the mythology of us, alan gee, even steepest possible price control. well, clearly, clearly, and none of these people thought any of this are, you know, larry and what are future historians are going to think about this. i mean, this is all self inflicted. these are craving choices. these none of this should be

happening larry. some airy parallels if you will, with the 1st world war, because when you look back at the health, the world got drug in europe in particular, was drug into a completely unnecessary massive slaughter. there are the historians will look back at this period and see a complete failure of leadership across the board, an unnecessary provocation of russia and refusal to negotiate and, and then the end, it will, this is going to lead to, unfortunately widespread pain. i think das destruction, i don't mean to be a doom say or but it just or the future is dark in what we're looking at because the leaders refusing to stand up and try to be reasonable adults. you know, michael, i think when all is said and done, what's going to be left of ukraine? you the call had been dead or stand. ok because that's all that's going to be lab.

the longer this goes on, the smaller ukraine gets last 25 seconds. go to you, my friend. thank you sir. i think you're absolutely correct. put in is trying to read up the pain and saying, anytime you want to top are ready to talk and stop this. and what is the one to say to the death will fight to that. what do you, are you insane? it will never stop until the russians when that's when it stops. well, let it up. now michael, i'm sure you. so lindsey has got a plane on the tarmac with all the money and it just pull the afghan president variant and just leave the country. ok. or he'll end up in a ditch one way or another. it's going to end as all the time we have gentlemen many thanks them i guess in tampa. oh, and corpus christi and thanks to our viewers for watching us here are dc you next time. remember trust roles the

ah oh willing i saw booty doin no cranium tutorial. soon enough idea. she ship a duck lean report of control. you put you on board so you should feel free to give them a war though i liked the system will only be me out on that. did not sing lots of lots of lucy leave here with stem cell, darker room. there's a crazy that to where you store lot of the my subway, but just dory. yes. or no. sal if she have a lease, get us, but generally ship them that he has a daughter to take him over to them. i need a price quote for that, for a one. they switched over or up where you actually meet

with global. i'm saying years about how she took on my job is to broadview enough room for a few quick to take a picture, go double play. you have to go so good, i'm up with you on i was showing wrong when i just don't know if you have to figure out this thing because the advocate and engagement, it was the trail with so many find themselves worlds apart. we used to look for common ground. ah, the 1st time in history,

an entire country's culture has been canceled to the very modern weapon cancelled culture in the desert. wonderful language cecile mileage. so we thought we can't just sit in the loop with the phrase now, particularly refers to counseling russian culture yet them know what to create a few oral school because it's convenient. my for cure, which will be your child will fill out that go with them with what rushes created over the past 1500 years now question actually condemned, reviled and rejected. just sort of like a will of bramble. there's a lot closer. i want to hold poetry. thank you said a little short list. joining total condemnation, gross daily, and now includes just dance k to kosky shostakovich. get that i need to you

poor left, but yes, you're seeing that with the time. will you do? obama lee? you're not going to do that a little bit more. a moscow excuses ukraine's president of trying to start a world war that's up to volume is the landscape coals on nato to launch preemptive strikes against russia. washington considers will tell your chief measures against saudi arabia to opec closest decision to cost oil production. and despite president biden's efforts to keep prices down, also coming up in the program, kenya sparks is a neighboring tons of the near of genetically modified for juice. and to the east